A discussion surronding the BE debacle...

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Switched

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Feb 18, 2010
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Switched, any comments you have would be appreciated. It was just a few thoughts that I had, tried to capture reasonably coherently, but could easily be wrong, or improved on, in many ways :)
I'm cool with that Mark. I haven't been this enthused about a topic in a long time, reminds me of the good old days. I thoroughly enjoy these exchanges and I hope our debates can actually be useful to someone. It is exchanging points of view that spurs discussion. :)
 

Switched

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Feb 18, 2010
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I just got into a nice little debate on Twitter. I want BE to come forward with the names of juice companies that they've supplied.

Other vapers are against this......and insist that BE has offered a refund to anyone that wants one, so it shouldn't have to release the names of ejuice companies it sells to.

I'm over it. I trust my vendor AVE. I'm actually gonna skip my Yoga class to listen to Russ' podcast tonight (even though I already subscribe & could listen tomorrow). I like how Russ gets down to the cold, hard facts, and doesn't play around the real issues at hand.
I hear ya! I was quite appalled at hearing the same type of rationale last week. There is a certain group that don't give ECF a whole lot of credence, they are sorely mistaken.
 

pinellaspete

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Aug 16, 2011
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353
Safety Harbor, FL
We could really use some transparency here. All these vendors and suppliers sticking together and not being honest and straightforward with us, their customers. I really don't see how this industry could be self regulated. We are just lucky that nobody was injured or died using this bad BE liquid. If that had happened I think all these vendors and suppliers would REALLY have shut-up and left us in the dark.

Nobody from this industry is stepping forward with answers or solutions to our, as their customers, fears and concerns. I truly believe at this point that it is only a matter of time until it happens again.

Pete
 

Kurt

Quantum Vapyre
ECF Veteran
Sep 16, 2009
3,433
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Philadelphia
We could really use some transparency here. All these vendors and suppliers sticking together and not being honest and straightforward with us, their customers. I really don't see how this industry could be self regulated. We are just lucky that nobody was injured or died using this bad BE liquid. If that had happened I think all these vendors and suppliers would REALLY have shut-up and left us in the dark.

Nobody from this industry is stepping forward with answers or solutions to our, as their customers, fears and concerns. I truly believe at this point that it is only a matter of time until it happens again.

Pete

Vendors are stepping forward and contacting me about testing. The good ones want this, and want QC transparency. They know it is the new selling point. I will address this on Cozzicon's show tonight. I am very optimistic about how things are turning.
 

Prettycat191

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 1, 2011
1,387
924
Plano, TX
I would not care if vendors that use BE's nic still use it in their juices, on one condition; that they test their bases in house before making product with it. So if a vendor said yes, they do use BE, but they test the batches before using them in the juices, then I would buy from them (if I ever decided to quit DIY, which I don't see happening any time soon lol).

BE will have to make major changes and prove that they can and will take better care of their customers (not even just with QC, but the slow shipping and Customer Service issues that they have also had problems with); before I would even CONSIDER using them again.

I hope our vendors are actually paying attention and making the changes to their own companies to help prevent something like this happening again. This was more widespread than a single instance, they screwed up several things all at the same time. I do hope that this doesn't happen again any time soon with other vendors, though if they make the correct changes, I can imagine that we won't see anything else like this for a long time.
 

Switched

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Feb 18, 2010
10,144
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Dartmouth, NS Canada
We could really use some transparency here. All these vendors and suppliers sticking together and not being honest and straightforward with us, their customers. I really don't see how this industry could be self regulated. We are just lucky that nobody was injured or died using this bad BE liquid. If that had happened I think all these vendors and suppliers would REALLY have shut-up and left us in the dark.

Nobody from this industry is stepping forward with answers or solutions to our, as their customers, fears and concerns. I truly believe at this point that it is only a matter of time until it happens again.

Pete
The long and short Pete, the vendors that don't or wont play ball will be ejected from the ball park by the community with their wallets. It is that simple. Although only a small portion of vapers are on the forums, forums have an extremely powerful voice. If the movement gains sufficient momentum, it is either ply straight or go out of business. They have given it to us (the shady types) for far too long.
 

Kurt

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Sep 16, 2009
3,433
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Very good show tonight, covered a lot of ground, informative.

I thought so too. I finally got some really central and important questions, and I hope I answered them adequately and in a way people could understand. I don't have all the answeres, obviously, but I think now the public is asking the questions that need to be asked and demanding the vendors to step up.
 

AddyTude

Full Member
Sep 28, 2011
44
37
Florida
it seems to me that there is a lot of freedom in the area...freedoms are hard for people to give up.
So the rest of my post may strike a nerve. My hope is that it will spark better ideas.

When I became a part time retailer, in order to buy items wholesale from manufacturers/suppliers, I had to prove that I was registered for business that pertained to the materials I was looking to source, and in some cases even provide samples of my finished products and marketing materials. (I am not suggesting this...just setting the scene.) also, there are various organizations/associations specific to different types of items you are looking to purchase/sell. Membership application is easier for some than others. Some do have stringent policies and where/how you are able to source your products, etc. I think the biggest challenge in the e-juice arena, is the mixing of roles in the supply chain. This is why there is likely to be some push back. As a consumer of these raw products, I too don't want to give up my freedom. <sigh> I am certainly not suggesting that this industry rush out and try to mimic any other...but what I am suggesting is that regulations/QC (even of the self-enforced kind) would need to be different for the various roles. I personally don't purchase 100mg ...but know a lot of you do...but maybe the vendors agree to only sell to those individuals who will agree test the incoming nicotine, if over a certain mg and mL...and provide results in timely manner. This would help start to establish a professional relationship (in addition to the personal one), even if it is just Me...buying to cut my own. The supplier knows that I am aware of the risk, that I take it seriously...and I have the opportunity to prove to the supplier, that I am not looking to play any pranks by providing information in return. Anyway, just an idea. I have several suppliers that send me samples of new items, specifically based on some of my target market. A lot of times they use my feedback on how they might present it to other retailers with the same or different target market. The point of this is...there is the focus, at each point, of a goal. This industry as a whole is young, so it can seem silly to try break it off into chunks. But you can start with big chunks. And they will likely start to specialize more and break off into their own chunks when the time is right.

On a side note, the whole talk/business of sabotage is really frustrating...because you can't organize anything if it's "me against the world". Professionals welcome healthy and worthy competition, and usually enjoy being among their peers. Professionals look for ways to improve their method of doing business/satisfying their customers without resorting to BS.


Lastly, I am not trying to sling mud on BE or their CEO - but I am wondering how truthful his comment about "many" other juice vendors using his nicotine really is. He has not been exactly accurate in many of his other statements. It may have been said only to reinforce the idea of professionalism. Maybe the number was a few others...still it is very disturbing that no-one has come forward...(if I missed anyone that did, I apologize and commend your courage and commitment to your customers). And completely agree, that i would have no problem ordering from such a vendor, if they tested their BE nicotine in the wake of the issue. I cannot commend GV, because of the relationship to the individual that posted coupon codes. Whether or not they claim they are using nic from somewhere else now, is irrelevant. I am hardpressed to believe someone that lied repeatedly, the whole "cry wolf" thing and all.
 

Switched

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Feb 18, 2010
10,144
2,544
Dartmouth, NS Canada
I thought so too. I finally got some really central and important questions, and I hope I answered them adequately and in a way people could understand. I don't have all the answeres, obviously, but I think now the public is asking the questions that need to be asked and demanding the vendors to step up.
Yes very informative Kurt. I don't know if you were following chat or not during the conversation but folks were wondering if there is a possibility of The chemistry Lab on a monthly basis or whatever?
 

Switched

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Feb 18, 2010
10,144
2,544
Dartmouth, NS Canada
it seems to me that there is a lot of freedom in the area...freedoms are hard for people to give up.
So the rest of my post may strike a nerve. My hope is that it will spark better ideas.

When I became a part time retailer, in order to buy items wholesale from manufacturers/suppliers, I had to prove that I was registered for business that pertained to the materials I was looking to source, and in some cases even provide samples of my finished products and marketing materials. (I am not suggesting this...just setting the scene.) also, there are various organizations/associations specific to different types of items you are looking to purchase/sell. Membership application is easier for some than others. Some do have stringent policies and where/how you are able to source your products, etc. I think the biggest challenge in the e-juice arena, is the mixing of roles in the supply chain. This is why there is likely to be some push back. As a consumer of these raw products, I too don't want to give up my freedom. <sigh> I am certainly not suggesting that this industry rush out and try to mimic any other...but what I am suggesting is that regulations/QC (even of the self-enforced kind) would need to be different for the various roles. I personally don't purchase 100mg ...but know a lot of you do...but maybe the vendors agree to only sell to those individuals who will agree test the incoming nicotine, if over a certain mg and mL...and provide results in timely manner. This would help start to establish a professional relationship (in addition to the personal one), even if it is just Me...buying to cut my own. The supplier knows that I am aware of the risk, that I take it seriously...and I have the opportunity to prove to the supplier, that I am not looking to play any pranks by providing information in return. Anyway, just an idea. I have several suppliers that send me samples of new items, specifically based on some of my target market. A lot of times they use my feedback on how they might present it to other retailers with the same or different target market. The point of this is...there is the focus, at each point, of a goal. This industry as a whole is young, so it can seem silly to try break it off into chunks. But you can start with big chunks. And they will likely start to specialize more and break off into their own chunks when the time is right.

On a side note, the whole talk/business of sabotage is really frustrating...because you can't organize anything if it's "me against the world". Professionals welcome healthy and worthy competition, and usually enjoy being among their peers. Professionals look for ways to improve their method of doing business/satisfying their customers without resorting to BS.


Lastly, I am not trying to sling mud on BE or their CEO - but I am wondering how truthful his comment about "many" other juice vendors using his nicotine really is. He has not been exactly accurate in many of his other statements. It may have been said only to reinforce the idea of professionalism. Maybe the number was a few others...still it is very disturbing that no-one has come forward...(if I missed anyone that did, I apologize and commend your courage and commitment to your customers). And completely agree, that i would have no problem ordering from such a vendor, if they tested their BE nicotine in the wake of the issue. I cannot commend GV, because of the relationship to the individual that posted coupon codes. Whether or not they claim they are using nic from somewhere else now, is irrelevant. I am hardpressed to believe someone that lied repeatedly, the whole "cry wolf" thing and all.
Absolutely!

A tiered system is what is discussed here and would work very well dependent on where you are situated in the chain.

VTTalk – Box Elder
 
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