A discussion surronding the BE debacle...

[Prettycat191]

I'm sorry if I offended you but it is MY choice to continue to use her as a vendor and all I did was explain exactly why I wasn't going to continue to do so. It is her choice to remain non-transparent. For me, this is unacceptable post BE.

I am not sure what business you are in but mine is all about trade secrets. Disclosing a supplier is not a trade secret. It is not something we volunteer if we don't need to, however when there is a safety issue whit a supplier in that area, you bet we tell our customers who we use when they ask. If we don't we loose their business.

My customers are other corporations. It is continual irony that corporations are more contentious customers than human customers these days. You can bet that if another corporation were buying juices from Mrs T, they would drop her in a second over this scandal if she didn't tell them who supplies her nicotine.

This is not about knowing who is the supplier, but about being able to check and research that supplier's safety practices.

If you would step outside of your emotional attachment to the vendor (yes, I have it as well for Mrs T) and look at it dispassionately, you would realize you should not buy from them anymore till you can check out the safety practices of the vendor who supplies Mrs T's nicotine.

However, like me, you are free to make your own choices. However, criticizing my post for being "inappropriate" is factually incorrect. Its is very appropriate.

You didn't offend me, and I was half asleep when I posted it, so I apologize if I came across wrong. I never have ordered from Mrs. T's, though I've heard great things about her juices; I only ever had juice from GP, GV, and Vaporescence before I started exclusively DIYing.

My business is making things from Polymer Clay and selling them, more of a hobby than a business, but the business allows me to keep my hobby going lol.

No hard feelings, as I said in my post, it was simply my opinion. I also mentioned before that I wouldn't care if my vendor used BE nic as long as they test it before using it to determine the actual mg level so they can adjust measurements as needed. When Kurt said that their nic is a high quality and has just been measured wrong, then I think it can safely still be used as long as any discrepancy is adjusted for.

 

[kinabaloo]

You didn't offend me, and I was half asleep when I posted it, so I apologize if I came across wrong. I never have ordered from Mrs. T's, though I've heard great things about her juices; I only ever had juice from GP, GV, and Vaporescence before I started exclusively DIYing.

My business is making things from Polymer Clay and selling them, more of a hobby than a business, but the business allows me to keep my hobby going lol.

No hard feelings, as I said in my post, it was simply my opinion. I also mentioned before that I wouldn't care if my vendor used BE nic as long as they test it before using it to determine the actual mg level so they can adjust measurements as needed. When Kurt said that their nic is a high quality and has just been measured wrong, then I think it can safely still be used as long as any discrepancy is adjusted for.

It's a hard call. The thing s that (hopefully) any vendors supllied by BE have been notified and have (since at least) tested their incoming nic strength. If they had not always done so, some may be out f the door already. On the other hand, we have no data to suggest that the distributed liquid was off-strength; 50-50.

Of course, many people will be unaware of any issue f not forum active and would need that nessage from the vendor who made the customer sale. So it is in their interests to do what is right in respect of whether they did or disn't test.

Most vendors do care about what they sell and take due diligence to that end; and if they were lacking in this regard before, I'm sure they'll have stepped up since.

Lots of 'mysery shoppers' out there now with testi equipement - so should anything occur again it will be detected much more quickly. Errors should be extremely rare, but could still occur.

 

[Switched]

Valid points and supported.

I received my test kit yesterday and my 100mg VG liquid tested out to 103mg. I was not surprised with the results just a confirmation. I am expecting no less with the other 2 test I will be performing this am from a different vendor.

The way forward is no a witch hunt, well at least for as long as I have known Kurt he is not on one, and reiterated on numerous occasions he wants to see BE succeed vice closing up shop. Does BE have a confidence problem on their hands? Yup!

OTOH you (vendors) are innocent until proven guilty.

 

[Switched]

Am example of what is considered due diligence.

NB. XXX does NOT mix any eLiquid; the eLiquid that we supply is EXACTLY the eLiquid as we receive it from Dekang. Any references to ‘fresh liquid’ refers to ‘fresh batches or lots’, of eLiquids that we receive from Dekang. These eLiquids are also ‘fresh’, in the sense that they are of very recent production. We have never received an eLiquid from Dekang that has been more than eight (8) days old, where the majority of this time is transit time.

All Dekang eLiquid supplied by XXX is batch coded and traceable back to its origin, at Dekang. We store samples of every flavour, of every batch as part of our due diligence.

‘Fresh’ eLiquid does not develop its full flavour for between 2 to 6 weeks, dependant on the flavour. However, it will have matured enough after 1 to 2 weeks to be acceptable for a reasonable vaping experience – but allowing it to mature longer, is better.

 

[Kurt]

‘Fresh’ eLiquid does not develop its full flavour for between 2 to 6 weeks, dependant on the flavour. However, it will have matured enough after 1 to 2 weeks to be acceptable for a reasonable vaping experience – but allowing it to mature longer, is better.

What do you mean by this, Switched? If a liquid is homogenously mixed from VG/PG and pure freebase nic, is it not ready for consumption? I understand the danger of inadequate mixing, but given it is completely mixed, what is the wait time for? Perhaps you are not referring to unflavored liquids here.

 

[retird]

Due diligence to a point, I think. Only observation I would make is that there needs to be assurance (certification) from Dekang that their nic strength, as listed on the bottles, is correct....(assuming the Dekang comes in sealed bottles)

Now, if the vendor XXX receives the Dekang in bulk, and rebottles it, due dilligence needs more steps/verifications and documentation...

 

[Switched]

What do you mean by this, Switched? If a liquid is homogenously mixed from VG/PG and pure freebase nic, is it not ready for consumption? I understand the danger of inadequate mixing, but given it is completely mixed, what is the wait time for? Perhaps you are not referring to unflavored liquids here.

It's called steeping Kurt, and I only copied from site XXX. That being said, my former experience with Dekang liquids is that they did indeed mature with time.

 

[Switched]

Due diligence to a point, I think. Only observation I would make is that there needs to be assurance (certification) from Dekang that their nic strength, as listed on the bottles, is correct....(assuming the Dekang comes in sealed bottles)

Now, if the vendor XXX receives the Dekang in bulk, and rebottles it, due dilligence needs more steps/verifications and documentation...

They have it.

De-canting is not reducing.

Vendor recalls, Dekang will replace.

As previously stated we don't need to get stupid about it.

 

[retird]

Your are right, we do not need to get stupid with it, we need to get smart with it...."cradle to grave"

 

[oldsoldier]

They have it.

De-canting is not reducing.

Vendor recalls, Dekang will replace.

As previously stated we don't need to get stupid about it.

You make a very good point. going overboard is rarely the answer. Knee jerk reactions often tend to create new problems and issues.

 

[Sense Field]

Why do you ask?

Because I'm curious if anyone actually vaped something mixed using it and what it felt like.

Basically, I've been vaping gourmet vapor eLiquid for a long time now. For some reason my latest purchase from them seems a little harsh, not sure if it's my mind playing tricks on me, but I'm worried to ever buy from them again.

Also, I wonder who the person who sent you the sample is...in order to handle that type of nic and pour it into another bottle, they would have had to be either very brave or very skilled at handling these sorts of toxic materials. So the reason I want to know who it was that provided the sample is that I would like to know, first hand, if they are a trusted member of the community.

But either way...I think there should be 100% disclosure in this thing...people that sent in samples should be out in the open, after all, this is a big deal.

 

[Iffy]

people that sent in samples should be out in the open

Totally disagree! Those that don't want their 'names' disclosed would not send in questionable samples. As for me, I would announce my shipment if sent. But, not all are as public as I am.

Besides, it's the nic base and labels that are suspect; not any members!

 

[Kurt]

Because I'm curious if anyone actually vaped something mixed using it and what it felt like.

Basically, I've been vaping gourmet vapor eLiquid for a long time now. For some reason my latest purchase from them seems a little harsh, not sure if it's my mind playing tricks on me, but I'm worried to ever buy from them again.

Also, I wonder who the person who sent you the sample is...in order to handle that type of nic and pour it into another bottle, they would have had to be either very brave or very skilled at handling these sorts of toxic materials. So the reason I want to know who it was that provided the sample is that I would like to know, first hand, if they are a trusted member of the community.

But either way...I think there should be 100% disclosure in this thing...people that sent in samples should be out in the open, after all, this is a big deal.

I understand your concern, but questions of down-stream sabotage were almost entirely ruled out. It was precisely the fact that they were anonymous from here and each other than allowed this, and possibly forced Brad's hand to admit mislabeling from the time period in question. Something certainly did. Read the Houston thread, listen to the first Cozzicon interview with Brad and me. I was the only one I was going to allow to be witch-hunted, if it came to that...other than the CEO, but I didn't want that either. They were my results, and now I am the one out in the open. I have no intention, and no reason, to out those that were good enough to send me samples...and are continuing to do so.

If you look in the original "BE nic too strong" thread, those that got the ultra-high nic posted. I'm sure they were very careful with it, since they were experienced enough to order 100 mg anyway. Pouring is possible if you have good ventilation and are careful. They also emailed BE long before I did my tests, so I'm sure BE knows who they are too. If they made a normal DIY at, say, 12 mg, it would have been about 30 mg instead. It would have been just a very strong vape, and I think they just stopped vaping and started emailing and testing it themselves. So did most of the others that sent samples, although some did get physically ill.

The thing that is in question is general QC, not those that detected mistakes in it. Fact: very few vendors test before liquid goes out the door. But many are now approaching me for testing, or possibly searching out other chemists, which is great, as well as getting the equipment and skills to do it themselves. Regardless of who did what in this BE mess, although I think it is clear at this point, the main focus and trajectory NOW should be encouraging good QC with our wallets, and making that a reality. Everyone wants this, vendors included. Trust me, they are more worried about sending out bad juice than people are worried about getting it now, and much of that stems from the anonymous nature of this initial study, and the fact that people are buying kits and doing fairly accurate testing themselves, which has gone a long way to change the rules.

 

[Sense Field]

I understand your concern, but questions of down-stream sabotage were almost entirely ruled out. It was precisely the fact that they were anonymous from here and each other than allowed this, and possibly forced Brad's hand to admit mislabeling from the time period in question. Something certainly did. Read the Houston thread, listen to the first Cozzicon interview with Brad and me. I was the only one I was going to allow to be witch-hunted, if it came to that...other than the CEO, but I didn't want that either. They were my results, and now I am the one out in the open. I have no intention, and no reason, to out those that were good enough to send me samples...and are continuing to do so.

If you look in the original "BE nic too strong" thread, those that got the ultra-high nic posted. I'm sure they were very careful with it, since they were experienced enough to order 100 mg anyway. Pouring is possible if you have good ventilation and are careful. They also emailed BE long before I did my tests, so I'm sure BE knows who they are too. If they made a normal DIY at, say, 12 mg, it would have been about 30 mg instead. It would have been just a very strong vape, and I think they just stopped vaping and started emailing and testing it themselves. So did most of the others that sent samples, although some did get physically ill.

The thing that is in question is general QC, not those that detected mistakes in it. Fact: very few vendors test before liquid goes out the door. But many are now approaching me for testing, or possibly searching out other chemists, which is great, as well as getting the equipment and skills to do it themselves. Regardless of who did what in this BE mess, although I think it is clear at this point, the main focus and trajectory NOW should be encouraging good QC with our wallets, and making that a reality. Everyone wants this, vendors included. Trust me, they are more worried about sending out bad juice than people are worried about getting it now, and much of that stems from the anonymous nature of this initial study, and the fact that people are buying kits and doing fairly accurate testing themselves, which has gone a long way to change the rules.

I have a very simple goal...I want to to order more juice from Gourmet Vapor...that's been my vender of choice for months...so I need to know if it's safe or not. I read some of the huston thread and was tortured through a little over an hour of that interview...and in the end...I still don't know if it's safe.

 

[Switched]

According to Gourmet Vapor (BE subsidiary) they now use My Freedom Smoke nic.

This discussion is 2 weeks old, why so late to the party?

If you would have taken the time to read Houston and watched the video you would not be asking the question. There are many that were GV fans, but no more. Whether they will return to GV is anyones guess.

As stated BE nic was some of the finest liquid out there (Kurt's seal of approval). No one is on a witch hunt.

The intent is for a way ahead and to improve QA & QC, and some form of regulatory body not dissimilar to ECITA.

I have tested my liquids from 2 different suppliers, for which I had no doubts - one came out @ 103mg, the other 99mg (100mg VG nic) and no I will not disclose who they are here. That is not the point. I will entertain PMs though.

Personally, although I never vaped any liquids associated with BE, it becomes a moot point. OTOH if I had, I wouldn't no more, well at least for the time being.

The reason I never trusted these vendors, SALES <---- to good to be true usually is.

IMO until they restore consumer confidence, BE and associates are dead in the water.

 

[Switched]

Your are right, we do not need to get stupid with it, we need to get smart with it...."cradle to grave"

It is cradle to grave AFAIC. Furthermore, I believe this particular vendor is a member of ECITA, and if so is a certified vendor from a regulatory body. <----- That is all we need to be concerned with.

Because the threads were not intended to promote or drag in the mud anyone else but the 3 companies in question, anonymity should be the word of the day.

In my most humblest of opinion, it is everyones responsibility to ensure what they vape is safe. We as a community are here to assist each other. OTOH how often do we see sage advice being dismissed because it is not what we wanted to hear, why would it be any different wrt liquid(s)

The vendor I posted - I would vape their liquid any day of the week and 3 times on Sunday. I was a Dekang user before sensitivities to PG developed. If I had the choice back then, I would be vaping Dekang still to this date. I trust their CofC more than seeing a vendor market Made in the USA when we know the majority of nic comes/came from China, at least in the day.

 

[retird]

Switched, I too vaped Dekang until my vendor quit using it....I too have favorite juice vendors which I trust...I also agree, we as community members, should help each other....

I wonder how many of us have asked our vendors what QC measures they have? I certainly have asked....and received nice reply's....but no QC information....I am not 'bashing" the vendors here, just saying QC measures need to be in place and transparent.....

I think President Reagan said it best " Trust but Verify".

 

[Switched]

Switched, I too vaped Dekang until my vendor quit using it....I too have favorite juice vendors which I trust...I also agree, we as community members, should help each other....

I wonder how many of us have asked our vendors what QC measures they have? I certainly have asked....and received nice reply's....but no QC information....I am not 'bashing" the vendors here, just saying QC measures need to be in place and transparent.....

I think President Reagan said it best " Trust but Verify".

I believe we are on the same page here... just using different syntax.

 

[Kurt]

It's called steeping Kurt, and I only copied from site XXX. That being said, my former experience with Dekang liquids is that they did indeed mature with time.

As did my unflavored 36 mg TW in PG. Even in the freezer, after about a year, all the 30 mL bottles I had bloomed into a distinct tobacco liquid. I know that the GC-MS of that liquid posted on their website showed typical tobacco extract compounds reminiscent of a somewhat incomplete nic purification. The color had also deepened rather dramatically from a faint yellow to almost orange. I assumed that the other tobacco flavor/compounds had oxidized along with perhaps nic.

Their Decadent Vapor unflavored liquid, OTOH, was also in PG, but was reputed to be pharm grade nic only, and it had not changed from its original clear and colorless at all in the freezer after 1 year. All my pure-nic in VG liquids changed not one bit in the freezer after this long, and remain unchanged to this day, almost two years on now.

My conclusion was that cheaper nic which also has other tobacco compounds in it will "mature" with time, even at low temps, but high-grade nic in VG/PG will not change at low temps much, if any. I had no other PG unflavored liquids than the above, since I cannot do PG, and actually ended up giving them away.

 

[Iffy]

To those that have offered to contribute to defray Kurt's expenses:

Please PM me for his PayPal addy.

I contacted Kurt to obtain his permission to post this and he reluctantly agreed.

Vape on!