A discussion surronding the BE debacle...

[Skeeter T]

A few months ago I received some well known foreign, supposedly quality, 510 atty's from a well known vendor. The atty's wouldn't thread all the way (bottom out) into my mod's connector. I talked to the mod manufacture about it and he said a few months back the vendor was having the same 'big' problem with the same atty's. He also said the atty's manufacturer gets sloppy sometimes. I bought a threading die, chased (re-thread) the atty's and was surprised that I had to remove a lot of material.

It's known the quality coming out of some foreign countries isn't consistent, but is improving. Can we currently trust certifications from suppliers in a foreign country that has such a reputation and few, if any, regulations in the e-cig industry, let alone our own country that currently has no regulations in the same industry, AFAIK?

One way buyers of foreign and domestic materials can have confidence in a supplier's certification is to do a yearly audit on the supplier's QC procedures. If the supplier has deficiencies (isn't doing what the procedures specify), then the buyer issues a notice for corrective action to the supplier and gives the supplier a reasonable amount of time to correct their deficiencies or they are removed from the buyers acceptable source list.

 

[Switched]

Last para pretty much summed up ECITA's role.

 

[Kurt]

To those that have offered to contribute to defray Kurt's expenses:

Please PM me for his PayPal addy.

I contacted Kurt to obtain his permission to post this and he reluctantly agreed.

Vape on!

Many thanks, again, Iffy! And again to all that have donated, my deepest gratitude.

 

[kinabaloo]

I think people would like to know what happened to it, because there's been no feedback in weeks.

 

[Switched]

IT meaning ?

 

[Spazmelda]

IT meaning ?

The money sent to Kurt? I would assume he's using it to help the defray the costs of stuff he's already done and the samples he's currently working on? Since he does have a real job and it was just a major holiday over here, I wouldn't think we'd expect results on demand.

 

[Switched]

Yes and totally supported

 

[Kurt]

Yes, I have been on vacation and away from the internet and the lab entirely. I have two samples from before the holidays to still run tests on...sorry for the delay. Also, December was final exams and grades to be done...my teaching had to take priority, and December was perhaps the busiest month of my life to date.

Donations have stopped, but so have requests for testing. Total donations were about $400 or so, and they pretty much covered materials and time and effort, but not enough to get my own equipment, licensing, liability protection, etc. But certainly enough to make me willing to run more tests for people if they wish.

Nothing dangerous has been found since the original BE results. I am also running samples with vendors, and working with them, but behind the scenes. The original BE results went public because of the lack of communication from BE after the initial queries, and the over-the-top danger of the 272 mg liquid. My attitude about working with vendors is that as long as they are working with me, or someone, to improve QC and QA, and no one is in danger, I prefer to not stir up more hornets' nests. One was quite enough for me. And while the donation total was not a lot, I was very surprised and grateful for that which I got. Many thanks again to all who gave!!

The main issue is that most liquids I am testing are about 10-20% too high, which taken on its own are not particularly dangerous, especially if the level is less than 100 mg. I also have some limited data on the density of liquids...one in particular came up about 10% too high, compared to the components. This indicates that there may be a contraction of the solution volume after mixing, which would explain some of the general trend of too high compared to labeled nic. I am working with the vendor very closely on this, and trying to work with other vendors about this too. I do not work with pure nic, so I cannot duplicate this effect, but I think it might be important, and certainly something that needs to be explored. It implies that depending on how the liquid is made, and no matter the care of accuracy of measuments in the prep, the liquid may end up too high.

The initial BE/Houston results I believe now were from sloppy QC and general inventory control, and I have not seen this level error with other vendors, but then again I've only looked at a few other vendors' liquids, and cannot make a definitive claim.

The Wed before Christmas I went on Vape Team with another guest (Nebulobrot) who is very active in hardware creation, and we layed out what we feel would be good QC protocol for vendors. Our suggestions were:

1. Test by GC-MS pure nicotine for purity and contamination.

2. Mix in multi-liter batches the base nic-liquid (100 - 300 mg), and test this either by GC-MS or titration, and use this base for making lower concentration retail liquids, also in multi-liter quantities.

3. Test the batches of retail liquids, GC-MS or titration. This way even if they are off, they won't be dangerous.

Many vendors are mixing their liquids from pure nic and carriers and flavors in the retail bottles. This makes testing valid only for that bottle, not a batch of bottles. We think scaling up to larger preps with added testing will really solve much of the problems and keep a situation like what started this very unlikely.

Because the original BE/Houston thread is closed, much of this issue has left the radar of the general vaping community, but it is very much still active. I think it is going to take time, however, but once vendors start actually displaying testing results on their sites, a new standard will create itself. Frankly I think most vendors feel why bother when the FDA may shut everything down anyway, or at least change it outright and ban high-nic liquids. Not thrilled with this, but my real job keeps me too busy to do a lot about that. My time really is quite limited.

That is the status as it stands right now. I'm still quite active in this effort, just not as public with it. I think if a couple vendors clean things up with publicly displayed testing, a sea-change will occur.

 

[landscaper]

I never saw the conclusion of your reports on the nic that was sent to you from all over the place. I know the few you tested in the beginning were high. What was the overall test results from all of the samples that were sent to you? I know a lot suspected higher nic levels but I never heard what the final test results were. What did BE ultimately do and are they still in business?

Thanks Dave

 

[AzPlumber]

Kurt, thanks for the update. It's great to here this is headed in the right direction. I sure hope enough vendors are involved to start this change and keep the FDA at bay a little longer.

 

[Kurt]

I never saw the conclusion of your reports on the nic that was sent to you from all over the place. I know the few you tested in the beginning were high. What was the overall test results from all of the samples that were sent to you? I know a lot suspected higher nic levels but I never heard what the final test results were. What did BE ultimately do and are they still in business?

Thanks Dave

I mentioned some of those in the original BE thread. One was BE 100 mg lot 257 and it was measured at 99.1 mg, so fine. There was another that was about 10% high. As I said, nothing dangerous, and nothing that could be of use to vapers. Seems the lot numbers are not of use in predicting nic error. I have two more BE lot 257s to do yet. Maybe tomorrow or this weekend.

As for lots of BE samples sent from all over, there were not many. Maybe 12 total, including the original Houston-thread samples. Some said they would send me samples, but never did. I told the senders what the nic level was, but unless there was something dangerous, or info actually useful to the average vaper, I did not post. After all, BE has closed their doors, and their lot numbering was not indicative of anything useful to the study or vapers. I did not want to rub salt needlessly into Brad's wounds, and did not find anything to warrant that.

Most of my time with all this now is spent working with vendors. themselves, both consulting and running tests. I have decided to keep that info private between me and the vendor if there is nothing particularly alarming determined from the test. As I said, the NORM is 10-20% high for all liquids I have been sent. None are too low so far, save for my own BE liquid. But I am only working with at most 4 vendors right now, with some more transparent than others. Some get a result, claim shock at the result, and then don't communicate anymore. I have learned that there are almost no vendors testing retail liquids before they are sold. I can only think of two: Levy's ExtremeVaping and Wizard's Lab, which just opened up. As far as I know that is it. Many get GC-MS of their pure nic, but nothing for their retail liquids. I don't know if Chris at MyFreedomSmokes does testing, but his 100 mg VG came up fine for me as well as other chemists here that titrated their MFS liquids. Most vendors just assume and hope they are correct, I think.

Of course if someone is not suspicious of their liquid based on vaping it, they wouldn't bother getting it tested. And I discouraged people from sending me a sample of something that didn't seem problematic. I do need about 20 mL or more to do accurate titrating, more if its low nic. 20% too high is only a problem if you vape at 36 mg normally, as much higher can get you sick, but if you only vape at 12 mg or so, it would just come up as a bit stronger of a hit. Nothing terrible.

My goals are more long term. I have spent a great deal of time trying to understand nic-PG and nic-VG solution chemistry, both empirically and theoretically. Some of the main issues are presented in the new QC forum. It is still unclear if nic over time separates from PG or VG. There are rumors and suspicions, but I have found nothing in the literature to support that. It will separate with heat, however, and actually can form layers above 60 deg C, but only at about 100 mg or stronger, so I don't see this as an issue for most people. It could be an issue if heat is being used to make high-nic liquids, however. If anyone has concrete info on nic separating at normal temps, I'm all ears. The other issue is the solution volume contraction possibility. This could explain some of the prevalent errors.

Fact: I am seeing 20% errors in even the most revered of Nic vendors' liquids. I think it is far more common than we thought. But I am also not interested in putting another vendor out of business. If I see really dangerous again, I will broadcast, but I am more interested in spending my time working with them to improve things. The BE results are already being used in a negative way to kill the industry. So its a tightrope, balancing between making sure people are reasonably safe and being allowed to continue vaping.

But I can assure everyone that massive time and educated skills are being spent on the problem, and its a tough one.

 

[Turnkeys]

As the title suggests, I'm not a daily ECF reader. The only reason I came to this today was mention in another thread (Deals & Steals) that I get periodic updates about.

Kurt, Stitched, and to the other mods, those keeping an eye on this issue, and those who sent in samples, thank you for your efforts.

I've been a GV customer for about a year now, and while I don't have any immediate concerns about the pre-mixed bottles in my collection, (have tried them all with no ill effects) I do have a couple 500ml bottles of 36mg base I've started mixing with. I'll be ordering a kit to verify those.

Having come this late to the party, there's a lot of material to digest, and I've seen several links to VapeTV videos. I'm wondering if anyone has titles & links to these in chronological order?

I've seen this one. And I believe it was the first discussion about this issue on VapeTV. (Kurt & Brad were Skyped in) But I'm unsure of where others fall in the timeline. And stickam.com's viewer was very choppy.

I appreciate links & updates,
Thanks
Turnkeys

 

[Iffy]

Kurt, great to hear from ya!

And yes, it must be a real tightrope walk. Also, I understand and respect your collaborative efforts with vendors and your reluctance to post all details.

Take care and keep in touch!

 

[Shilo]

Thanks for the update Kurt.

 

[316lvm]

OMG! It's been a long while since I've been on the forum. I was trying to find BE in the vendor's section to buy some nicotine and discovered the BE threads. I had no idea all this had taken place.

I ordered from BE about a year or 1 and a half years ago. Never got a notice that something might be wrong.

It's scary to think that there are other vaper's like me who have been out of the e-cig loop for a while and have no clue as to what has taken place.

 

[AzPlumber]

Yes I imagine it would be scary to re-connect and find out something like that took place, but the good thing is the industry as a whole is much more aware and the nic vendors have become more diligent.