Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[Fulgurant]

Correct. And when we're looking at liquid that's pushing 2,000,000 ppb against a safety recommendation of 8-25 ppb in open air...figuring out how to estimate the actual "directly into lungs vapor ppb" is not on my to-do list. But hey, if you know how and have the time, go for it!

Heh, no, it's not at all a straightforward process to nail down how much a vaper might inhale. Suffice to say that the number cited in this thread is troubling on its face.

I was just curious. Certainly, the concentration of diacetyl found in the analysis is cause for concern -- cause immediately to quit vaping the offending flavor, in fact. But we don't want people to panic just because they once tried MBV Butterscotch, so it's best to temper an albeit disturbing number with the caveat that we don't know exactly what it means, in practical terms. We know it's not good, though.

 

[we2rcool]

Heh, no, it's not at all a straightforward process to nail down how much a vaper might inhale. Suffice to say that the number cited in this thread is troubling on its face.

I was just curious. Certainly, the concentration of diacetyl found in the analysis is cause for concern -- cause immediately to quit vaping the offending flavor, in fact. But we don't want people to panic just because they once tried MBV Butterscotch, so it's best to temper an albeit disturbing number with the caveat that we don't know exactly what it means, in practical terms. We know it's not good, though.

Agree with everything you said! Thanks for the explanation & link.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Thank you!

It does help me, but not in a good way. It means they do not have a ingredient list already, nor a certification from the manufacturer that there is no diacetyl in the product and that they do not do their own testing. Basically they said their flavorings did not have diacetyl in them without documenting it.

Not trying to be an ... about it, but this seems to me a pretty serious hit on their credibility. On the bright side, at least Sarah responded.

I can see that, and I'm a bit shocked as well, given it's an open statement on their website. Hopefully Sarah will get back in touch with me once they have everything together. She did say it may take up to a month, so we still have a little ways to go. That too, was not a guarantee though, hopefully if it takes more than a month to get the COA's, it won't be much more than a few days to a week past. I'd rather be clear on which ones do and do not use the chemicals simply to get it out there so everyone can make their own informed decision.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Okay, for the people who care about these chemicals and choose to stay away from then this is my question for you. Recently went on TFA to search more flavors to get for recipes (i use TFA because of the warning labels of "custard note" ingredients) and noticed three flavors that i had bought a month prior (bavarian cream, coconut, and peanut butter) all have warning labels on them now! I'm getting really frusturated because now half my recipes contain trace amounts of these chemicals and are a waste unless i can find substitute flavors. i make juices for my friends and family and these chemicals in these flavors are the last things i want to use.

Does anyone know a flavor company that knows for SURE what chemicals are present in their flavors? Does any flavor company have lab testing done thats available to the public? Any help is greatly appreciated thank you!

Just to be clear here, there is nothing wrong with Acetyl Pyrazine.

Unless I'm completely misinformed

 

[vangrl27]

I can see that, and I'm a bit shocked as well, given it's an open statement on their website. Hopefully Sarah will get back in touch with me once they have everything together. She did say it may take up to a month, so we still have a little ways to go. That too, was not a guarantee though, hopefully if it takes more than a month to get the COA's, it won't be much more than a few days to a week past. I'd rather be clear on which ones do and do not use the chemicals simply to get it out there so everyone can make their own informed decision.

while that's all great for going forward, it's no comfort for those that have been vaping copious amounts over the last few years under the impression it was diacetyl free It's been a few weeks since they've been notified and no ones heard anything?

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Just to be clear here, there is nothing wrong with Acetyl Pyrazine.

Unless I'm completely misinformed

is funny how just cause something is sold under it's actual name, and not just "art flavor", people think it sounds scary and is bad

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

while that's all great for going forward, it's no comfort for those that have been vaping copious amounts over the last few years under the impression it was diacetyl free It's been a few weeks since they've been notified and no ones heard anything?

I reached out to Sarah earlier and she just got back with me on this. She said that they are still working on revamping their new site which will allow them to more prominently display this information (if you look at their site now, registering to download the MSDS is a pain) and that hopefully it'll be completed by the end of the month.

It's actually only been two weeks as of tomorrow. At least since I contacted her about this. It may have been longer for others, though I contacted her on May 26th, 2014 and the two week mark would be tomorrow, April 9th, 2014.

 

[we2rcool]

I reached out to Sarah earlier and she just got back with me on this. She said that they are still working on revamping their new site which will allow them to more prominently display this information (if you look at their site now, registering to download the MSDS is a pain) and that hopefully it'll be completed by the end of the month.

It's actually only been two weeks as of tomorrow. At least since I contacted her about this. It may have been longer for others, though I contacted her on May 26th, 2014 and the two week mark would be tomorrow, April 9th, 2014.

It's already been shown that MSDS's typically reveal nothing but the terms "artifical flavors" and/or "natural flavors".

 

[we2rcool]

while that's all great for going forward, it's no comfort for those that have been vaping copious amounts over the last few years under the impression it was diacetyl free It's been a few weeks since they've been notified and no ones heard anything?

No company needs more than a few hours (a few days MAX) to confirm the chemicals in a product they make or sell. Every flavor formula has a 'recipe' and that recipe IS recorded & available....all any company has to do is look at them and be willing to disclose the information. If the FDA or a lawyer with a class-action suit showed up on their doorstep, they'd have the information for them, and they'd have it pronto.

This BS has been going on for YEARS with the vendors/manufacturers selling 'food flavors to vapers' and the e-liquid retailers that use them - a few people squawk about it; a few vendors sweat a bit (and they know it's very likely that if they ignore it, it''ll blow over and things'll be right back to normal).

It's real easy - take this issue seriously, stop covering your .... every-which-way, get the "chemical cookbook" that has all the recipes/formula, look at it, and be honest & transparent about the chemicals in the formula...or don't, and do something else.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

It's already been shown that MSDS's typically reveal nothing but the terms "artifical flavors" and/or "natural flavors".

I know, I was commenting on the fact that it was a pain to register just to download the MSDS, not commenting on the fact that it's available or it's information. The MSDS really provides no information for the purpose of what is being requested. They, according to Sarah, are working to fix this with the new site they are launching, which will have the COA's for each product. I'm just relaying what I've been told.

No company needs more than a few hours (a few days MAX) to confirm the chemicals in a product they make or sell. Every flavor formula has a 'recipe' and that recipe IS recorded & available....all any company has to do is look at them and be willing to disclose the information. If the FDA or a lawyer with a class-action suit showed up on their doorstep, they'd have the information for them, and they'd have it pronto.

This BS has been going on for YEARS with the vendors/manufacturers selling 'food flavors to vapers' and the e-liquid retailers that use them - a few people squawk about it; a few vendors sweat a bit (and they know it's very likely that if they ignore it, it''ll blow over and things'll be right back to normal).

It's real easy - take this issue seriously, stop covering your .... every-which-way, get the "chemical cookbook" that has all the recipes/formula, look at it, and be honest & transparent about the chemicals in the formula...or don't, and do something else.

I agree, though most companies either pay someone to manage their site or they have 1-2 in-house designers/developers that take care of it for them. Few actually sell and manage their own website and that can be said for most vendors (not all, but most), otherwise we wouldn't see the same cookie-cutter type websites from GoDaddy or Shopify. Not that there's anything wrong with using either of those companies, I'm simply pointing out that most don't operate both. They focus on their specific task and delegate the rest to whoever else. So they get the information from their manufacturer, they present it, then whoever manages their site updates it. If they're launching a new site in the process, that most likely has priority, regardless of whether we feel something else should or not.

At the end of the day, I'm just relaying the information I'm given. If you or someone else chooses not to buy from them based on currently available information, or lack thereof, then it's a loss they take and will have to deal with. Perhaps if more and more people would get in touch with them, they would speed up, though I've only heard of 1-2 others stating that they've contacted FlavorWest.

 

[penstyle]

With so many variables it is difficult to nail much down. Especially with differences as simple as webpage descriptions.

For example. I was reading about a sites wonderful organic premade juices and how they do not contain this and that. Great right. So I went to their DIY flavors and ordered one of the DIY flavors. No description there so I take it that it is wonderful and does not contain "this and that".

WRONG. Went to that flavors premade juice page and BAM "contains less than 1% percent of diacetyl".
The premade and the DIY is the same but one with the disclaimer and one without.

Not trying to be all nuts but looking to make more informed decisions GOING FORWARD.
Things like that just p*** me off.

 

[aikanae1]

I hope you pointed it out to the manufacturer ^ It really could be like a typo and not intential.

I think people need to remember that flavorings are made for food. Diacetyl is fine in food. The eliquid industry is probably less than 0.01%. The trade organization advises against selling for eliquids. There are probably tens of thousands of flavoring manufacturers in the USA who do NOT sell to anyone making eliquids with them. Most of the flavorings saying diacetyl free are within current FDA standards to say that. There are no standards set by the FDA and the FDA isn't concerned about setting them because they fully expect to wipe them out for ecigs.

So the fact there are some flavoring manufacturers going to lengths to make sure their favorings are safe for vapers, need a huge thumbs up because by many observers, it's a lost investment if the FDA/EU/HC have their way. I've read a few reports on diacetyl and acetoin and while some are obviously biased, some aren't and they make me question some of the panic. Not all. I think most agree diacetyl is bad, but it's not so clear about acetoin. The main point is that flavors might be a wild card right now. Everyone has a choice to vape unflavored. Vaping is still less harmful than smoking.

Right now, with deeming looming and tons of communities facing bans / restrictions, I think preserving our right to vape is probably the most critical right now - and yes, this does include the devices we currently are using. Did you know Illinois has banned all nic sales in the state? That was sneaky.

 

[penstyle]

I hope you pointed it out to the manufacturer ^ It really could be like a typo and not intential.

I think people need to remember that flavorings are made for food. Diacetyl is fine in food. The eliquid industry is probably less than 0.01%. The trade organization advises against selling for eliquids. There are probably tens of thousands of flavoring manufacturers in the USA who do NOT sell to anyone making eliquids with them. Most of the flavorings saying diacetyl free are within current FDA standards to say that. There are no standards set by the FDA and the FDA isn't concerned about setting them because they fully expect to wipe them out for ecigs.

So the fact there are some flavoring manufacturers going to lengths to make sure their favorings are safe for vapers, need a huge thumbs up because by many observers, it's a lost investment if the FDA/EU/HC have their way. I've read a few reports on diacetyl and acetoin and while some are obviously biased, some aren't and they make me question some of the panic. Not all. I think most agree diacetyl is bad, but it's not so clear about acetoin. The main point is that flavors might be a wild card right now. Everyone has a choice to vape unflavored. Vaping is still less harmful than smoking.

Right now, with deeming looming and tons of communities facing bans / restrictions, I think preserving our right to vape is probably the most critical right now - and yes, this does include the devices we currently are using. Did you know Illinois has banned all nic sales in the state? That was sneaky.

The vendor is a major e cig retailer. They should know whether or not the products on a page contain a description or not. Not my job to alert them to there fault, omission or whatever. I'm the one out a few bucks not them.

I understand that FDA standards only account for about 95 percent of the total and that it is the trace amounts that are enough to spawn numerous threads that people are concerned with because by the OSHA standards it is the trace amounts that are enough to do damage.

I am not for regulation nor bans just want to know what I'm ingesting.

 

[we2rcool]

I hope you pointed it out to the manufacturer ^ It really could be like a typo and not intential.

I think people need to remember that flavorings are made for food. Diacetyl is fine in food. The eliquid industry is probably less than 0.01%. The trade organization advises against selling for eliquids. There are probably tens of thousands of flavoring manufacturers in the USA who do NOT sell to anyone making eliquids with them. Most of the flavorings saying diacetyl free are within current FDA standards to say that. There are no standards set by the FDA and the FDA isn't concerned about setting them because they fully expect to wipe them out for ecigs.

So the fact there are some flavoring manufacturers going to lengths to make sure their favorings are safe for vapers, need a huge thumbs up because by many observers, it's a lost investment if the FDA/EU/HC have their way. I've read a few reports on diacetyl and acetoin and while some are obviously biased, some aren't and they make me question some of the panic. Not all. I think most agree diacetyl is bad, but it's not so clear about acetoin. The main point is that flavors might be a wild card right now. Everyone has a choice to vape unflavored. Vaping is still less harmful than smoking.

Right now, with deeming looming and tons of communities facing bans / restrictions, I think preserving our right to vape is probably the most critical right now - and yes, this does include the devices we currently are using. Did you know Illinois has banned all nic sales in the state? That was sneaky.

'Don't have time to respond to everything above, we just want to point out...

The manufacturer's/vendors that wholesale to ECX (and other vaping suppliers) for rebottling all are quite aware that the flavors are used for vaping. With the info we got from another vendor, the sale of several flavor lines accounts for (our very low estimate here), somewhere way over a million dollars a year, and over two million is far more realistic....for just one vendor that rebottles.

We disagree with the "0.01%" guestimate; in fact, we'd suggest that their sales have skyrocketed by a major percentage since they started "selling to vapers without selling to vapers". They've been lugging very heavy bags to the bank for YEARS now...we're not concerned they may have to spend a few thousand for a bit of testing and disclosure (something that should have been done YEARS ago)...but only two of them (FA & TFA) have bothered to 'step up to the plate' with any manner of integrity. Besides, the manufacturers don't have to pay extra for testing - they already know & document what they make. It's because they haven't been transparent and honestly disclosed the ingredients from the beginning that this discussion/issue is even on the table.

 

[we2rcool]

I know, I was commenting on the fact that it was a pain to register just to download the MSDS, not commenting on the fact that it's available or it's information. The MSDS really provides no information for the purpose of what is being requested. They, according to Sarah, are working to fix this with the new site they are launching, which will have the COA's for each product. I'm just relaying what I've been told.

I agree, though most companies either pay someone to manage their site or they have 1-2 in-house designers/developers that take care of it for them. Few actually sell and manage their own website and that can be said for most vendors (not all, but most), otherwise we wouldn't see the same cookie-cutter type websites from GoDaddy or Shopify. Not that there's anything wrong with using either of those companies, I'm simply pointing out that most don't operate both. They focus on their specific task and delegate the rest to whoever else. So they get the information from their manufacturer, they present it, then whoever manages their site updates it. If they're launching a new site in the process, that most likely has priority, regardless of whether we feel something else should or not.

At the end of the day, I'm just relaying the information I'm given. If you or someone else chooses not to buy from them based on currently available information, or lack thereof, then it's a loss they take and will have to deal with. Perhaps if more and more people would get in touch with them, they would speed up, though I've only heard of 1-2 others stating that they've contacted FlavorWest.

It's our opinion you've missed your calling - you should definitely be a politician! lol.

This has NOTHING to do with website maintenance. If the report from Canada is valid (and we have FW's Butterscotch - it reeks of diacetyl/diketones), so we can assume it is valid - then Sarah has lied to you (and you published & defended it).

As for FW, they do not list it on-site, though I do have their short-list of flavors that do contain Acetyl Proprionyl, which is below. The numbers beside each flavor is the amount of Acetyl Proprionyl in PPM (Parts per Million). This is coming direct from one of their representatives (Sarah).

1). Maple Pecan 0.278
2). Pumpkin Spice 0.272
3). Jamaican Rum 0.155

And after posting the same in this thread (where the claim of diacetyl, acetoin, & acetyl propionyl FREE except for the above flavors was included) http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many-5.html , it was you that defended FW when others in the vaping community scoffed and/or indicated they could taste them. Hopefully no one that's sensitive to those chemicals believed it...

That being said, FlavorWest has no reason to lie to a potential or existing customer.They don't benefit from it. If TFA didn't have it on their site and you didn't know what was in their flavors already, would you treat them the same way? What reason do they have to lie or give out false information, especially when I'm sure they know who their customer base is (i.e. Mt Baker Vapor being one of them) and I'm sure they are aware of the concern for these specific chemicals.

Of course they have a reason to lie. Of course they benefit from telling vapers their flavors are virtually free of known inhalation risk chemicals. It's called "bottom line", not to mention the legal ramifications of having 'brought to light' that they are stating flavors are diacetyl/diketone free if/when they aren't.

It's not about "website maintenance". It's not that they don't have access to their own chemical recipes/formulas. And this (wev'e been meaing to post):

they are requesting an ingredient list from their raw material supplier to confirm that the report is accurate.

...is just insultingly ridiculous. An ingredient list? They have the purchase orders & invoices to verify what they purchased from said supplier...and their recipe books tells them exactly which 'raw materials' they use. Whether or not they bought certain chemicals does NOT validate or invalidate a scientific test/analysis.

It'd take all of an hour for a top-dog to send an email to website maintenance: "Please post a note on the home page that says: The following flavors MAY contain either acetoin, diacetyl or acetyl propionyl (list the flavors). While these chemicals are GRAS for ingestion, they are known to be inhalation risks. We want to be sure that anyone using these for vaping is aware of this issue - and that we'll be taking further steps in the immediate future to post 'warning flags' on all the flavors that contain these diketones." ...and it'd take all of 15 minutes for someone to do it.

On another note (although it may be none of our beeswax, we do care): please be careful, Jonathan! Now that you are a 'registered supplier' (and have your own reputation & bottom line to think of), you're in a very 'public & precarious' position when you take on representing & go-betweening with the various major flavor vendors the way you have. We're certainly not trying to tell you what to do or post - but we'd be amiss if we didn't warn a fellow small business owner to remember...be very careful when you're pubicly posting 'on behalf of' the big dogs! We almost lost a business once over 'totally innocent good intentions' on our part (along with assuming their intentions were what they stated & appeared to be) - and it took us years to recover what we lost.

 

[aikanae1]

Burp .....................

 

[aikanae1]

We are a very tiny portion of the industry. There's something like 3,000 convienence foods entering the market every month. Every one of those require natural / artifical flavors.

This is one of the things I have to deal with in art materials and ASTM "safety" standards. The pigments available are not chosen for their "artistic" quality, they are chosen for car paint and printing inks. Think of all the crayons 'n crap and that is only 0.001% of the market. All the pigments MDS is supplied by the pigment manufacturer, not the manufacturer of the final product. They just repeat what they are told - which is not correct upon independent testing. It makes a nightmare. But I think I'd be hard pressed to find any industry that did it differently. Including food / prescribtions. These are the perimeters.

Some of those flavoring companies we deal with have larger parent companies. It's a lost investment if flavors can't be added to single use cartridges anyway (like Vuse) which is what passed in the EU.

I think microwave popcorn advertises diacetyl free and they contain the subsitutes. That's not right or wrong. Just an observation.

Not pointing out a possible error? Geesh. That's not really a friendly spirit either. Most website owners appreciate people pointing out typos, problems. Do you know how many configurations and settings there are? I would prefer to take the attitude of "were all in this together" when it comes to problem solving and not create an adversarial enviroment.

Ingredient listing is a pet peeve, but I'm not going to dump it all on the flavoring companies either now that I realize their information may be at fault. I also have some severe multi-allergies so reading labels is a habit.

 

[we2rcool]

We ARE all in this together! There's nothing adversarial about an exchange of truths or opinions - it's just an exchange of information, even if there's disagreement.

We all have differing viewpoints; we all see things on the stage from a different seat in the area - and we've all had different life experiences that temper our viewpoints.

It's our opinion that there is no reason nor excuse for any flavoring manufacturer to profit from the sale of flavors to vapers without identifying & disclosing whatever 'inhalation risk chemicals' might be in them. It's not complicated or costly, and there's no reason they can't - there's only reasons why they won't.

 

[penstyle]

Not pointing out a possible error? Geesh. That's not really a friendly spirit either. Most website owners appreciate people pointing out typos, problems. Do you know how many configurations and settings there are? I would prefer to take the attitude of "were all in this together" when it comes to problem solving and not create an adversarial enviroment.

Agree we are all in this together and that our right to vape is important.
I understand there is an organization for that.

In my world an omission is more than a boo boo.
I have more of an allegiance with you and those on this forum than I do manufacturers, vendors and retailers.

 

[vangrl27]

I was given that lab result from a Canadian e-juice vendor, they spent a lot of money perfecting their e-juices to retail and they went the extra step to lab test their final product. He e-mailed them regarding the test and they never e-mailed him back, so he posted something regarding the test results on their facebook wall and it was taken down immediately, and he was banned immediately from their page. Kind of a crappy way to treat one of your wholesale customers?

I'll never purchase directly from F.W, but unfortunately some of my e-juice makers probably will if they are under the impression that it's free of those 3 ingredients, and I'll never know, and that's what scares me.

If they said all it takes is a call to their raw material supplier to find out if it has Diacetyl then why haven't they done that? updating their website and possibly providing MSDS sheets in a month is irrelevant right now (to me anyway), it may be great for future customers, but doesn't help the issue at hand. They've been selling flavours that they said were acetoin, acetyl and diacetyl free, if that's not the case then all their customers should be aware of this asap.

I've only known about that lab test for a few weeks and Jonathon may have only contacted them about it a few weeks ago, but they were first shown that lab test over 6 months ago.


The screenshot below is from another Canadian vendor who sells DIY supplies, the only flavour company they sell is Flavor West. They used to have "All flavours are Acetoin, Acetyl, and Diacetyl Free" on their website. When they were informed of the lab test a few weeks back, they said they were in "constant communication" with Sarah and Jason and that they would make an inquiry immediately. I'm thinking by their new description that they have not heard back from them either...