Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[vangrl27]

Also, I get that most flavour companies have been selling to other industries for decades and for different purposes, but didn't Flavor West just pop up in the last 4 years or so? and isn't Flavor West and Vapor Renu the same company? or am i wrong?

 

[Sdh]

Also, I get that most flavour companies have been selling to other industries for decades and for different purposes, but didn't Flavor West just pop up in the last 4 years or so? and isn't Flavor West and Vapor Renu the same company? or am i wrong?

Vapor renu bought out flavorwest. It is cited on their facebook page. They own a few other companies as well. I think they list the names on the vapor renu page.

 

[we2rcool]

From the homepage of Vapor Renu: USA Made Vapor Renu : Electronic Cigarettes Refill Cartridges : Candy Flavorings : E Cig Liquid Nicotine : Cartomizer Refills : Menthol E-Liquid : Flavoring Oils : E Cigarette Refills

© 2013 Vapor Renu. (A Flavor West Company). All Rights Reserved.

Vapor Renu is located out of Corona, California. We custom blend manufacture that uses all ingredients from right here in the good old USA. Vapor Renu has a very large buying power at discounted rates; this is how we are able to pass the saving on to our customers.

From the Flavor West homepage: http://flavorwest.com/

Manufacturer Direct Flavoring

© 2014 Flavor West Manufacturing, LLC. All Rights Reserved.

From here: Flavor West Manufacturing LLC in Corona CA - Company Profile

Flavor West Manufacturing LLC filed as a Domestic in the State of California on Tuesday, January 17, 2012 and is approximately two years old, according to public records filed with California Secretary of State.

From FB Vapor Renu: https://www.facebook.com/vaporrenu/posts/153570841365237

Done Deal! Vapor Renu LLC. Officially owns FlavorWest.com. Look for new big things to come this year from both companies, while we continue to set the new standard for low pricing. Thanks to all of our loyal customers & Facebook followers!

 

[we2rcool]

From here: https://www.facebook.com/vaporrenu/info

Basic Info
Founded 2010
Products Electronic Cigarette juice

So we're a bit confused. This company didn't start as "food flavoring"? It's main thrust has always been e-cigs/vaping?

 

[Sdh]

I just remember buying some e-liquid from VR back in 2010. They sell e-liquid and diy. They sold flavorwest flavorings at that time as well.
I remember emailing VR about diacetyl back in 2010.

 

[aikanae1]

What is your point? Are you going to file a lawsuit? Although I think that requires proof of harm.

I'm willing to give a vendor a chance to make it right. It's quite possible they based their claims on what the raw material manufacturer said. It wouldn't be the first time.
I don't see how coming in here an screaming at people is going to further your cause.
Vape unflavored.

 

[we2rcool]

What is your point? Are you going to file a lawsuit? Although I think that requires proof of harm.

I'm willing to give a vendor a chance to make it right. It's quite possible they based their claims on what the raw material manufacturer said. It wouldn't be the first time.
I don't see how coming in here an screaming at people is going to further your cause.
Vape unflavored.

We don't know to whom the comments above are directed, but we certainly haven't seen anybody screaming at anyone (although we have seen a burp..... .

 

[vangrl27]

What is your point? Are you going to file a lawsuit? Although I think that requires proof of harm.

I'm willing to give a vendor a chance to make it right. It's quite possible they based their claims on what the raw material manufacturer said. It wouldn't be the first time.
I don't see how coming in here an screaming at people is going to further your cause.
Vape unflavored.

I hope that's not directed at me If it appeared to you that I was "screaming at people" I apologize, that certainly wasn't my intention. You may have detected notes of frustration, but that's solely directed towards F.W and their lack of communication, and not towards any member on this thread.

I think the thread has been really civil, informative and important, and my sole intention for contributing was to make other vapers aware of the lab results that I was made aware of.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

It's our opinion you've missed your calling - you should definitely be a politician! lol.

I'm actually not a huge fan of politics . I work in two industries, both of which are caught in the crossfires with speculation growing from every end.

This has NOTHING to do with website maintenance. If the report from Canada is valid (and we have FW's Butterscotch - it reeks of diacetyl/diketones), so we can assume it is valid - then Sarah has lied to you (and you published & defended it).

​

And after posting the same in this thread (where the claim of diacetyl, acetoin, & acetyl propionyl FREE except for the above flavors was included) http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many-5.html , it was you that defended FW when others in the vaping community scoffed and/or indicated they could taste them. Hopefully no one that's sensitive to those chemicals believed it...

​

I'm far from defending any single company or person. I relayed the information *she* provided me with. That same information could be obtained by anyone asking for it using the same medium (e-mail) that I did. I've never bought from FlavorWest, so from a non-customer standpoint, they owe me nothing in regards to special treatment or answering my e-mails faster than anyone else's.

A question was raised, I got in touch with them, Sarah is who responded and based on the information she had, those were the flavors that contained the chemicals that are considered to be an inhalation risk at the time of my e-mail. I'm not being defensive at all. I honestly don't benefit from using them, mentioning their name, or if their sales skyrocket or plummet as a result of what is or is not in their flavoring.

If anyone is concerned about what is in their flavoring, they should speak up, not just on a forum, but by getting in touch with them directly. From what I've seen here, very few have. Perhaps, as a company, they have their priorities in reverse order; that's the general consensus. It will take more than just a few people speaking up though. If every single member that has taken part in this thread and the numerous others that are on the same subject, they would probably see that it's more of an issue than when just a small handful of people chime in.

If vendors using their flavorings also stayed in touch and hounded them about COA's or, just a finite list of chemicals and the amounts of each in each flavoring, I'm sure we'd see more progress. As it stands though, they gave a time frame and if they meet it, great, if not, then it looks bad on them and their sales may suffer as a result. I don't see MBV or others just dropping them as a vendor though. The vast majority of their e-liquid sales depend on them, otherwise they'd be revamping their line as would other vendors who use them as a primary source for flavoring.

Of course they have a reason to lie. Of course they benefit from telling vapers their flavors are virtually free of known inhalation risk chemicals. It's called "bottom line", not to mention the legal ramifications of having 'brought to light' that they are stating flavors are diacetyl/diketone free if/when they aren't.

It's not about "website maintenance". It's not that they don't have access to their own chemical recipes/formulas. And this (wev'e been meaing to post): ...is just insultingly ridiculous. An ingredient list? They have the purchase orders & invoices to verify what they purchased from said supplier...and their recipe books tells them exactly which 'raw materials' they use. Whether or not they bought certain chemicals does NOT validate or invalidate a scientific test/analysis.

It'd take all of an hour for a top-dog to send an email to website maintenance: "Please post a note on the home page that says: The following flavors MAY contain either acetoin, diacetyl or acetyl propionyl (list the flavors). While these chemicals are GRAS for ingestion, they are known to be inhalation risks. We want to be sure that anyone using these for vaping is aware of this issue - and that we'll be taking further steps in the immediate future to post 'warning flags' on all the flavors that contain these diketones." ...and it'd take all of 15 minutes for someone to do it.

On another note (although it may be none of our beeswax, we do care): please be careful, Jonathan! Now that you are a 'registered supplier' (and have your own reputation & bottom line to think of), you're in a very 'public & precarious' position when you take on representing & go-betweening with the various major flavor vendors the way you have. We're certainly not trying to tell you what to do or post - but we'd be amiss if we didn't warn a fellow small business owner to remember...be very careful when you're pubicly posting 'on behalf of' the big dogs! We almost lost a business once over 'totally innocent good intentions' on our part (along with assuming their intentions were what they stated & appeared to be) - and it took us years to recover what we lost.

I'm not posting on their behalf, nor did Sarah ask me to. I'm relaying information that anyone else, vendor, customer or otherwise, could obtain as it was requested. I appreciate the warning and consideration though (not being a smart *** about it either - I do appreciate it).

That being said, none of us know how Vendor X operates, be it FlavorWest, Capella's, Flavor Apprentice, FlavourArt, Hangsen, [insert vendor here]. If they *have* the information and are withholding it or being lazy, that's one thing, though if they don't and their "raw ingredient provider" is stalling, or perhaps even they don't know (hypothetically), then said vendor is at their mercy. IMO, they have no reason to lie about the information they do or don't have. Perhaps I have different values as a business owner, but that is my opinion. A temporary increase in bottom line, again, IMO, isn't worth the long-term damage that could take place if they were indeed lying.


At the end of the day, much like you and others here, I know what they tell me. I can believe it, or question it. I questioned it and Sarah responded with a general time-frame. Again, if they meet it, great, if they don't, then they don't. The phrase Don't Shoot the Messenger comes to mind .



My only interest in the entire subject is because we are in this together, as everyone should agree, and we should be acting together. While I am not their customer, my own customers are as some of them DIY and they ask me the same things that are asked here on the forums. Some of them are members, some are not. I get in touch with vendors to verify what I can and I stay in touch, just as I do with Tom from Capella's and now Sarah from FlavorWest. I've spoken to Linda from TFA as well. If I could get a point of contact with Hangsen and Inawera, I'd be doing the same.

I have no reason to withhold information. We're a community and as such, we should be able to share information. If we question that information, we should be getting in touch with the vendor directly. If enough people did, as above, we'd most likely see more progress.

 

[we2rcool]

What is your point? Are you going to file a lawsuit? Although I think that requires proof of harm.

I'm willing to give a vendor a chance to make it right. It's quite possible they based their claims on what the raw material manufacturer said. It wouldn't be the first time.
I don't see how coming in here an screaming at people is going to further your cause.
Vape unflavored.

We'd like to take a minute to address "further your cause", and define this cause...

The chemicals in question are 'inhalation risks' - and there is ample scientific research (as well as actual human empirical evidence) to state that these chemicals are actual inhalation risks - not just theoretical.

We know that these risks are 'individual' - not everyone inhaling the chemicals is going to develop lung compromise and/or permanent disease (not everyone that smokes develops cancer). And of course, the quantity inhaled makes a difference; 50 ppb is a lot less likely to cause damage than 1,000,000 ppb. If one already has weak/compromised lungs however, even the low amounts may be dangerous.

We all have the basic human right to make an informed choice as to what we ingest & inhale.

There are many vapers that already have some level of lung compromise and are doing their best to avoid these chemicals.

No manufacturer or vendor has the right to deprive any vaper of that right - and they certainly do not have the right to tell people their products are free of these risky chemicals, but include them anyway.

Subjective: No manufacturer or vendor that profits from selling to vapers has the right use chemicals in their flavors that are inhalation risks without disclosing their presence.

The cause? The life & health of any ONE vaper is far more valuable than any manufacturer's anything. Multi-million dollar corporations (and even smaller ones) have vast resources for defending themselves. This issue has been 'in the news' for well over five YEARS. Besides, there's not one vaping manufacturer/vendor that was ever forced to put themselves into a position of needing to defend themselves.

We've ALL suffered enough at the hands of companies & corporations dousing our tobacco in dangerous chemicals while hiding it publicly. Many of us in the vaping community switched to vaping in order to AVOID these life-degrading chemicals and these types of profit-driven companies. We have the right to KNOW (and to not be jerked around and have the issue 'tabled for further discussion' in hopes it will blow over).

Many of us switched to DIYing, not only to save money but to have full control over the chemicals we inhale. We have the right to know whether or not chemicals with inhalation risks are in the flavors we buy & vape (and give to others).

FW/VR has been in business (apparently the "e cig business") since 2010. They've already had ample time & 'chances to make it right'. They've had all the years since they've been in business...and numerous people in this thread alone have contacted them (not to mention the Canadian company sacrificing their profits, time & formulas to both ensure the rights of vapers and prove there is a problem).

As vapers, the cause is the right of vapers & DIYers to make informed choices for themselves. The cause is to do our best to identify the vendors that are depriving individuals in the vaping community of that simple & basic human right.

 

[vangrl27]

We'd like to take a minute to address "further your cause", and define this cause...

The chemicals in question are 'inhalation risks' - and there is ample scientific research (as well as actual human empirical evidence) to state that these chemicals are actual inhalation risks - not just theoretical.

We know that these risks are 'individual' - not everyone inhaling the chemicals is going to develop lung compromise and/or permanent disease (not everyone that smokes develops cancer). And of course, the quantity inhaled makes a difference; 50 ppb is a lot less likely to cause damage than 1,000,000 ppb. If one already has weak/compromised lungs however, even the low amounts may be dangerous.

We all have the basic human right to make an informed choice as to what we ingest & inhale.

There are many vapers that already have some level of lung compromise and are doing their best to avoid these chemicals.

No manufacturer or vendor has the right to deprive any vaper of that right - and they certainly do not have the right to tell people their products are free of these risky chemicals, but include them anyway.

Subjective: No manufacturer or vendor that profits from selling to vapers has the right use chemicals in their flavors that are inhalation risks without disclosing their presence.

The cause? The life & health of any ONE vaper is far more valuable than any manufacturer's anything. Multi-million dollar corporations (and even smaller ones) have vast resources for defending themselves. This issue has been 'in the news' for well over five YEARS. Besides, there's not one vaping manufacturer/vendor that was ever forced to put themselves into a position of needing to defend themselves.

We've ALL suffered enough at the hands of companies & corporations dousing our tobacco in dangerous chemicals while hiding it publicly. Many of us in the vaping community switched to vaping in order to AVOID these life-degrading chemicals and these types of profit-driven companies. We have the right to KNOW (and to not be jerked around and have the issue 'tabled for further discussion' in hopes it will blow over).

Many of us switched to DIYing, not only to save money but to have full control over the chemicals we inhale. We have the right to know whether or not chemicals with inhalation risks are in the flavors we buy & vape (and give to others).

FW/VR has been in business (apparently the "e cig business") since 2010. They've already had ample time & 'chances to make it right'. They've had all the years since they've been in business...and numerous people in this thread alone have contacted them (not to mention the Canadian company sacrificing their profits, time & formulas to both ensure the rights of vapers and prove there is a problem).

As vapers, the cause is the right of vapers & DIYers to make informed choices for themselves. The cause is to do our best to identify the vendors that are depriving individuals in the vaping community of that simple & basic human right.

I love you...

 

[we2rcool]

I love you...

YAY! This ole world can use a helluvalot more of that! Rightbackatcha

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

This kinda irresponsibility in unregulated markets is exactly why, as ....ty as it is, these markets will likely end up being regulated. In fact, why they should be regulated.... like a legally defined acceptable ppm for these chemicals, based on hard science, etc

Now if there were some way to ensure that the regulations are reasonable and merely sufficient to ensure safety...

Companies that actively prove that eliquid makers and suppliers are unable to operate safely without regulation are the enemy, TBH.

Boycott

 

[Taledus]

This kinda irresponsibility in unregulated markets is exactly why, as ....ty as it is, these markets will likely end up being regulated. In fact, why they should be regulated.... like a legally defined acceptable ppm for these chemicals, based on hard science, etc

Now if there were some way to ensure that the regulations are reasonable and merely sufficient to ensure safety...

Companies that actively prove that eliquid makers and suppliers are unable to operate safely without regulation are the enemy, TBH.

Boycott

Sorry, but the last thing this needs is any form of regulation. What is needed is for people to inform themselves and be responsible. If a company refuses to list harmful ingredients, especially when they have a mass amount of consumers who use these products the way we do, then people should just stop buying from them...if they have been asked to list this information and refuse to do so it is really their prerogative and only through losing money will they learn.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Sorry, but the last thing this needs is any form of regulation. What is needed is for people to inform themselves and be responsible. If a company refuses to list harmful ingredients, especially when they have a mass amount of consumers who use these products the way we do, then people should just stop buying from them...if they have been asked to list this information and refuse to do so it is really their prerogative and only through losing money will they learn.

Then again everything else in America and the greater developed world, for right or wrong, is thusly regulated.

Lead levels in makeup, puss levels in mcnuggets, the percent of non-meat in a patty you can have and still call it 100% beef, etc etc. If history has shown us anything, it's that companies won't police themselves.

It sucks, and the regulations will invariably make DIY and just vaping generally more expensive and less open in general, but this kinda thing demonstrates its necessity.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Then again everything else in America and the greater developed world, for right or wrong, is thusly regulated.

Lead levels in makeup, puss levels in mcnuggets, the percent of non-meat in a patty you can have and still call it 100% beef, etc etc. If history has shown us anything, it's that companies won't police themselves.

It sucks, and the regulations will invariably make DIY and just vaping generally more expensive and less open in general, but this kinda thing demonstrates its necessity.

which is why I say boycott: F these guys who place creamy flavor and profit over safety, who refuse to be transparent, and who consequently ruin the party for everyone else.

 

[penstyle]

Why regulate when its easier to tax and ban.

 

[we2rcool]

which is why I say boycott: F these guys who place creamy flavor and profit over safety, who refuse to be transparent, and who consequently ruin the party for everyone else.

AGREE 100%! So how in the world do we get the word out to the kazillions of vapers when it's like pulling teeth to get anyone to even make an accusation or take a stance...even when they're staring at a test result of close to 2,000,000 ppb diacetyl and a label that says "diacetyl free" at the same time?

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

not really related, but this came up somewhere else the other day, in terms of BOYCOTT

The Human Cost of Your iPhone

 

[we2rcool]

Then again everything else in America and the greater developed world, for right or wrong, is thusly regulated.

Lead levels in makeup, puss levels in mcnuggets, the percent of non-meat in a patty you can have and still call it 100% beef, etc etc. If history has shown us anything, it's that companies won't police themselves.

It sucks, and the regulations will invariably make DIY and just vaping generally more expensive and less open in general, but this kinda thing demonstrates its necessity.

But, but, but, they don't have any reason to lie...and you're rude, mean, ill-informed & nasty to insinuate they do. :::sarcasm off::: :::eyeroll:::