Advocacy After the Fact?

[Jman8]

Really wanted to put this in "General vaping" to get more views, but alas I think Campaigning discussions makes more sense. Even while you four people and the moderators are perhaps the only ones that will ever read this.

Anyway, let's say a day comes about where you quit vaping. Not vaping nicotine, nor vaping at all. I realize many say they will never stop, and if that is 100% true for you, then please don't respond to this thread. But for those who may one day stop, I am wondering if you would continue to be an advocate for vaping? Or might you become what many ex-smokers are like and decide to buy into ANTZ rhetoric and spread all the negativities about the vaping experience?

I think with what ANTZ have done and will continue to do, it won't be too challenging to share negative experiences if one desires to. And I actually am okay with this, but only if you are able to share positive experiences as well, or provide an honest balance.

As for myself, I don't see me being much of an advocate. I'd likely stop trying to contact politician types, stop participating in forums, and stop following news on the topic. I realize that kinda sucks for vaping advocacy, but am being honest. And fortunately, none of that is the case right now. I do think the "indoor vaping" debate is something I would continue to be passionate about and would likely enter into that debate, even at a town hall type of meeting. I also think if I were non-vaper and in a public debate, I would somehow be perceived as 'more fair minded' than if I admitted to being a vaper. Additionally, I think the flavors issue would be a continue to be a big deal for me, though greatly lessened if I were an ex-vaper. I'd like to believe I'd still be an advocate on that front, and would possibly show up at local / state legislative meeting on that topic. And I'm pretty sure I would push for 'minors being allowed to vape' way more than I currently do, as I realize that is a tough issue and made even tougher to advocate for when one is perceived as user/addict. IMO, that is the issue that rules them all and the political football that both sides demonstrate high rate of inconsistency on, all in hopes of one upmanship. As a non-vaper (or really ex-vaper), I think it would be easier to bring balance to that issue than it is now as a vaper who has to tip toe around that issue, especially 'at this time.' The 'at this time' will ALWAYS be the case for that particular issue.

Anyway, that's about where I stand on advocacy after the fact (of me vaping) and am curious what fellow vapers feel they might do once they enter into territory of not vaping or becoming ex-vaper?

 

[Nate760]

I tend to be much more interested in vaping as a sociopolitical issue rather than a hobby/leisure activity (that is to say, it's obviously something I enjoy doing, but I have little desire to participate in minutely detailed discussions about PG/VG ratio and wick materials), so I don't think the equation would really change for me if I no longer vaped. Even if I'd become aware of the subject through means other than personal experience, and had no particular skin in the game, I think I'd be just as interested in the legal/political/regulatory aspect of the whole thing.

 

[roosterado]

Shoot I used to Believe What Public Health ORG,s said 6 month ago Mostly. And I was a Harm Reduction Advocate in other areas before switching to Electronic Cigarettes. My Watershed Monet was When I realized Public Health had Maliciously Lied about the Health Risks of Chewing Tobacco to Promote their Version of an Ideal World Without Nicotine Use. I now know Public Health is as much about Social Engineering as they are about peoples Health. I now see them as Puritanical,Abolitionist, Evangelistic,Orwellian Institutions .Despite the good they do in certain areas,these People need to be exposed for what they are and have been up to for years.

 

[Nate760]

Shoot I used to Believe What Public Health ORG,s said 6 month ago Mostly. And I was a Harm Reduction Advocate in other areas before switching to Electronic Cigarettes. My Watershed Monet was When I realized Public Health had Maliciously Lied about the Health Risks of Chewing Tobacco to Promote their Version of an Ideal World Without Nicotine Use. I now know Public Health is as much about Social Engineering as they are about peoples Health. I now see them as Puritanical,Abolitionist, Evangelistic,Orwellian Institutions .Despite the good they do in certain areas,these People need to be exposed for what they are and have been up to for years.

As one who ordinarily prides himself on being well-informed, and who smoked on a daily basis for a quarter century, I'm ashamed to admit just how little I actually knew about tobacco/smoking/nicotine up until I became a vaper at the beginning of this year.

 

[AndriaD]

I always say that I will "never" stop vaping, but in fact, as an asthmatic who's not getting any younger, there may come a time, far in the future (a future I now have, as a non-smoker), when vaping actually harms me more than it helps, and I might quit. But I would still be very interested in having vaping remain a legal and viable option for those who'd really love to quit smoking but cannot find a way to do it with "traditional" NRT products, as I could not.

I might not be the passionate firebrand about it that I am now; it's unfortunately true of human nature that we seldom fight as hard in battles that don't directly affect us, but I am and always have been strongly against gov't overreach, and that's precisely what this is, so yes, I would continue to be a "vaping advocate," even if I no longer partook myself -- even if only so that, in the event my quitting vaping brought back old cigarette cravings, I could still use vaping as harm reduction for myself.

It's simply unethical to deprive smokers who'd like to quit such an easy and pleasant method of doing so, and I am strongly opposed to anything unethical, particularly an unethical gov't. If nicotine is safe in patches and gum, it's safe in an e-cig too; they don't get to have it both ways, and I will continue to fight for that particular cause, whether I am a vaper or not.

If they actually try to deprive vapers of flavors, then I am going to start campaigning passionately to get all those flavored vodkas and other liquors off the market -- if those flavors aren't presumed to be "marketed to children," then neither are vape flavors.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

All great responses. Thanks for your contributions.

 

[jpargana]

Oh, no, I do not believe for a moment I would become like that!

IMHO, some ex-smokers become rampant anti-smokers because they knew how BAD smoking is. So, maybe they can get carried away and become too 'evangelic' on this "Why don't you also quit smoking" attitude.

On the other hand, we KNOW how good vaping is, for those people who have been trying to quit smoking for years without end.

We have experienced personally the health effects we felt in our own bodies, when we switched to vaping.

We have experienced firsy-hand what ANTZ's call a lie. Therefore, ANTZ's are calling us liars...


No amout of ANTZ rethoric and ideology and half-truths/blatant lies can overcome what we have EXPERIENCED, not just "heard of".

 

[AndriaD]

No amout of ANTZ rethoric and ideology and half-truths/blatant lies can overcome what we have EXPERIENCED, not just "heard of".

Man, that is the TRUTH. When I first started vaping, all I was really looking for was a way to deal with my habit without having to go outside and stand around like an idiot on freezing nights, and I hoped it might let me cut down my smoking pretty drastically -- when I discovered how easily I could substitute vaping for smoking, I was absolutely amazed -- it could actually help me QUIT SMOKING ALTOGETHER!

I certainly wasn't looking for that, and had no particular intention of quitting; I'd tried that so often with so little success and so much misery, that when anyone asked me if I was ever going to quit, my reply was a flat, NO.

To be able to quit smoking was beyond my wildest dreams, and certainly shocked the hell out of everyone that knows me. Andria's not a chimney anymore! Now I'm a fog machine!

So the ANTZ and the FDA can just bite me. Anecdote indeed!

Andria

 

[Jman8]

Oh, no, I do not believe for a moment I would become like that!

IMHO, some ex-smokers become rampant anti-smokers because they knew how BAD smoking is. So, maybe they can get carried away and become too 'evangelic' on this "Why don't you also quit smoking" attitude.

On the other hand, we KNOW how good vaping is, for those people who have been trying to quit smoking for years without end.

We have experienced personally the health effects we felt in our own bodies, when we switched to vaping.

We have experienced firsy-hand what ANTZ's call a lie. Therefore, ANTZ's are calling us liars...


No amout of ANTZ rethoric and ideology and half-truths/blatant lies can overcome what we have EXPERIENCED, not just "heard of".

I wish to challenge you, but mostly for sake of discussion.

I think ANTZ lies are either outright lies meant to scare and hopefully deter people from taking up a habit. IOW, pure propaganda. The other lies are half truths, and is I think the majority of what ANTZ shares with the world. Examples of this would be:

- eCig devices blow up in people's faces
- nobody knows the long term effects of eCigs (with implication that therefore no one should use them)
- the chemicals in eCigs are harmful

So, every politically aware vaper I know has an answer to these, but wouldn't exactly call these lies. Perhaps the last one is outright lie, but I'm prepared to argue that one further if fellow vaper thinks there is zero harm to eCigs.


Now, the way I see things playing out going forward is that science (of the neutral kind) will take ANTZ lies, of the outright variety, and set the record straight, thus greatly minimizing their intended effect. Yet, I don't see science of the neutral kind ever concluding that vaping is healthy and ought to be done, especially as it relates to vaping nicotine. That becomes a matter of life choice / desire for recreation and the THR tangent. And a debate that I'm sure will have detractors forever and a day. But on top of all this, and IMO far more prominently will be the ANTZ science that conveys data on the harms of vaping.

The stuff that ANTZ science produces is what I see making its rounds in mainstream news outlets. And constantly keeping vaping community on the defensive. When spun into outright lies, it'll likely be overcome, but the 'degree of harm' aspect will remain and so reality is we will minimize, but not really change the perception all that much once established. The stuff that neutral science comes up with will either be downplayed by mainstream or propagandists (of the ANTZ variety) will try to convince people that 'big tobacco or big vaping' bought and paid for this information, and therefore cannot be trusted.

I anticipate a whole bunch of ANTZ science coming out soon that will do to vaping what was done to smoking. And when that happens, it won't be one or three things that we are talking about whereby vaping appears to have some mild concerns, but instead about a dozen items that will indicate inherent and significant problems to anyone considering vaping. Or similar to where we stand today with smoking. And in that period, I believe a whole bunch of vapers will consider quitting and will become like the ex-smoker is today, spouting off ANTZ science and doing all they can to 'save fellow vapers from their poor life choice.'

 

[Robino1]

The way that the ANTZ et al have lied about smokeless tobacco and now ecigs, leads me to believe that they have lied about MUCH more. In particular to what is perceived as second hand smoke and its 'dangers'. For what it's worth, I can not believe anything they say. Period.

As to advocating after the fact of quitting everything? Yeah. I am committed to doing battle against those who wish to curtail our freedom of choices. This device has opened my eyes to a LOT of issues that face us, in regards to those 'protecting us for our own good'. them.

I see people all the time on here repeating rhetoric that they have heard for years under the stop smoking or die campaign, believing these things as truths. Now I see the ANTZ using those same tactics with ecigs and it infuriates me. Yeah, smoking certainly is not good for your health, but I don't see it as the dragon that needs to be slayed at all costs. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer or dies an early death. I truly believe that some of us were born with those possibilities, smoking may hasten getting those diseases or health issues. Just as some of us are born/predisposed toward diabetes, some of us are not and are able to eat or drink whatever and never have that issue.

I am so tired of people and organizations telling me that I can't do something just because I MIGHT have a problem later on down the road.

I have a few good reasons to keep fighting, should I quit vaping, and so far there are at least 5 of them. My grandchildren. Simply because they have parents, grandparents, great grandparents (and on down the genetic tree) that have smoked, they are at a greater risk of smoking. Sure, I would like them to use a product that is less likely to cause them any health problems. So I will continue my advocacy and hopefully I will see a day that it is not needed. <~ In my dreams, right?

 

[AndriaD]

I wish to challenge you, but mostly for sake of discussion.

I think ANTZ lies are either outright lies meant to scare and hopefully deter people from taking up a habit. IOW, pure propaganda. The other lies are half truths, and is I think the majority of what ANTZ shares with the world. Examples of this would be:

- eCig devices blow up in people's faces
- nobody knows the long term effects of eCigs (with implication that therefore no one should use them)
- the chemicals in eCigs are harmful

So, every politically aware vaper I know has an answer to these, but wouldn't exactly call these lies. Perhaps the last one is outright lie, but I'm prepared to argue that one further if fellow vaper thinks there is zero harm to eCigs.


Now, the way I see things playing out going forward is that science (of the neutral kind) will take ANTZ lies, of the outright variety, and set the record straight, thus greatly minimizing their intended effect. Yet, I don't see science of the neutral kind ever concluding that vaping is healthy and ought to be done, especially as it relates to vaping nicotine. That becomes a matter of life choice / desire for recreation and the THR tangent. And a debate that I'm sure will have detractors forever and a day. But on top of all this, and IMO far more prominently will be the ANTZ science that conveys data on the harms of vaping.

The stuff that ANTZ science produces is what I see making its rounds in mainstream news outlets. And constantly keeping vaping community on the defensive. When spun into outright lies, it'll likely be overcome, but the 'degree of harm' aspect will remain and so reality is we will minimize, but not really change the perception all that much once established. The stuff that neutral science comes up with will either be downplayed by mainstream or propagandists (of the ANTZ variety) will try to convince people that 'big tobacco or big vaping' bought and paid for this information, and therefore cannot be trusted.

I anticipate a whole bunch of ANTZ science coming out soon that will do to vaping what was done to smoking. And when that happens, it won't be one or three things that we are talking about whereby vaping appears to have some mild concerns, but instead about a dozen items that will indicate inherent and significant problems to anyone considering vaping. Or similar to where we stand today with smoking. And in that period, I believe a whole bunch of vapers will consider quitting and will become like the ex-smoker is today, spouting off ANTZ science and doing all they can to 'save fellow vapers from their poor life choice.'

And when I see posts like that around here, it just burns my guts. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you!

But the real problem is that there are just so damn many sheep in the world, sub-normals who take everything they hear on the "news" as gospel; I've always thought my mom was pretty smart, but she's one of those sheep herself, when it comes to The News; she really believes everything she hears, and I never for a moment thought she was that gullible -- she's always been one to make faces behind my stepdad's back when he gets on one of his bible tangents. But she was giving me all that pseudo-news about the dangers of e-cigs like it was really something to worry about; I think the only thing that finally made her shut up about it was hey, I'm not smoking anymore, so at least that part's gotta be good, right?

But there's really nothing to be done about the sheep; when people are that stupid and that indoctrinated, even evidence right before their eyes won't convince them. There is nothing so unshakable as some people's "beliefs." If they believe the gov't is really looking out for our welfare and the news is really telling the truth... there's just nothing to be done. As the comic put it so eloquently... you can't fix stupid.

Andria

 

[Jman8]

The way that the ANTZ et al have lied about smokeless tobacco and now ecigs, leads me to believe that they have lied about MUCH more. In particular to what is perceived as second hand smoke and its 'dangers'. For what it's worth, I can not believe anything they say. Period.

As to advocating after the fact of quitting everything? Yeah. I am committed to doing battle against those who wish to curtail our freedom of choices. This device has opened my eyes to a LOT of issues that face us, in regards to those 'protecting us for our own good'. them.

I see people all the time on here repeating rhetoric that they have heard for years under the stop smoking or die campaign, believing these things as truths. Now I see the ANTZ using those same tactics with ecigs and it infuriates me. Yeah, smoking certainly is not good for your health, but I don't see it as the dragon that needs to be slayed at all costs. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer or dies an early death. I truly believe that some of us were born with those possibilities, smoking may hasten getting those diseases or health issues. Just as some of us are born/predisposed toward diabetes, some of us are not and are able to eat or drink whatever and never have that issue.

I am so tired of people and organizations telling me that I can't do something just because I MIGHT have a problem later on down the road.

I have a few good reasons to keep fighting, should I quit vaping, and so far there are at least 5 of them. My grandchildren. Simply because they have parents, grandparents, great grandparents (and on down the genetic tree) that have smoked, they are at a greater risk of smoking. Sure, I would like them to use a product that is less likely to cause them any health problems. So I will continue my advocacy and hopefully I will see a day that it is not needed. <~ In my dreams, right?

I am liking all the contributions to this thread, but this one is my favorite.

 

[aikanae1]

The way that the ANTZ et al have lied about smokeless tobacco and now ecigs, leads me to believe that they have lied about MUCH more. In particular to what is perceived as second hand smoke and its 'dangers'. For what it's worth, I can not believe anything they say. Period.

As to advocating after the fact of quitting everything? Yeah. I am committed to doing battle against those who wish to curtail our freedom of choices. This device has opened my eyes to a LOT of issues that face us, in regards to those 'protecting us for our own good'. them.

I see people all the time on here repeating rhetoric that they have heard for years under the stop smoking or die campaign, believing these things as truths. Now I see the ANTZ using those same tactics with ecigs and it infuriates me. Yeah, smoking certainly is not good for your health, but I don't see it as the dragon that needs to be slayed at all costs. Not everyone who smokes gets cancer or dies an early death. I truly believe that some of us were born with those possibilities, smoking may hasten getting those diseases or health issues. Just as some of us are born/predisposed toward diabetes, some of us are not and are able to eat or drink whatever and never have that issue.

I am so tired of people and organizations telling me that I can't do something just because I MIGHT have a problem later on down the road.

I have a few good reasons to keep fighting, should I quit vaping, and so far there are at least 5 of them. My grandchildren. Simply because they have parents, grandparents, great grandparents (and on down the genetic tree) that have smoked, they are at a greater risk of smoking. Sure, I would like them to use a product that is less likely to cause them any health problems. So I will continue my advocacy and hopefully I will see a day that it is not needed. <~ In my dreams, right?

That's an understatement.

For almost a decade pharmaceticals have been trying to get nutritional suppliments under FDA control. There was even a leak where a deal had been struck over vitamin C with a drug company. I can not explain why the public has such a short memory for this kind of stuff - but every year, it's a brand new battle to keep the right to take vitamin C without a prescription. They want it ALL.

The corporate business model is it's cheaper to legislate than compete. Monoolies are required to survive. This has been going on for some time. People are attracted to certain sound bites and don't think it through. Even in here. Reduce the gov't and the need doesn't disapear. Corporations step in instead. The FDA works for corporations, not taxpayers. CDC and NIH aren't far behind.

The thing with CDC is they've made some excruciating public bungles lately with compounding pharmacies, small pox, anthrax and now ebola. Freidman should shut up for awhile to keep his job (I wish). Ecig industry should be reminding the public of these messes.

I (think) Consumer Reports made the comment not to take a prescription until it had been on the market for a min. of 7 years. Mainstream mistrust isn't unusual anymore.

Pushing against ecigs just undermines their credibility even further. That's the best leverage the ecig industry has.

Maybe putting out some PR on CDC's biased ads for studies???

I wish there was a way to hit them hard in the media right now.

 

[Anjaffm]

@Robino1, AndriaD, aikanae1:
absolutely

Oh, and I am not writing anything because I have no intention of quitting vaping. Ever.
I also have no intention of quitting coffee, tea, milk or meat. No matter what some people may say / lie / construct.
My life. My choice. Period.

 

[dragonpuff]

@Robino1, AndriaD, aikanae1:
absolutely

Oh, and I am not writing anything because I have no intention of quitting vaping. Ever.
I also have no intention of quitting coffee, tea, milk or meat. No matter what some people may say / lie / construct.
My life. My choice. Period.

Here here! Same here. If I must I will alter my vaping to fit whatever materials and liquids are accessible, as needed, but I have no intention of ever quitting vaping.

 

[aikanae1]

Quitting smoking was/is primary. Quitting vaping is secondary and shouldn't even be a discussion.

Diabetes is the #1 preventable lifestyle related disease. I don't know how that gets lost in the media. Maybe because it's maintable with a pill $ for life?

That's cruel.

 

[Steamix]

Anything between ex-smoking ANTZ and ISIS jihadists , the 'converts' are often trying to outdo everyone else..

I smoked. I vape. Maybe I quit vaping. Maybe I don't.

Not gonna climb on a soapbox and rant about , for, or against any of it.

Folks who knew me as heavy smoker, folks who might get to know me somewhen as a former vaper - ask and I tell. How it benefited me on a very personal level.
Apart from that, I invite 'em to read up here and other sources and make up their own mind.
Vapers are laid back folks - I am too laid back to do your thinking for you.

 

[AndriaD]

Quitting smoking was/is primary. Quitting vaping is secondary and shouldn't even be a discussion.

Diabetes is the #1 preventable lifestyle related disease. I don't know how that gets lost in the media. Maybe because it's maintable with a pill $ for life?

That's cruel.

God... this is one I have to fight in my mom and my husband... Just because "there's a pill for it" people seem to have this idea that there is no personal responsibility for their health whatsoever. My mom with her sugar intake, my husband with salt. I try to help him choose something that's not solid sodium, when we're at that part of the grocery shopping where we each pick out a couple of "quickies" -- I don't want to have to cook every single night! -- and he'll find something with 1500+mg of sodium, and I tell him, you want to have a stroke tonight? He goes "well that's what my pills are for" and I just want to slap him! Like that pill excuses him from ANY personal responsibility! AARGHGHGHHGHG!

Andria

 

[jpargana]

@Robino1, AndriaD, aikanae1:
absolutely

Oh, and I am not writing anything because I have no intention of quitting vaping. Ever.
I also have no intention of quitting coffee, tea, milk or meat. No matter what some people may say / lie / construct.
My life. My choice. Period.

Many ANTZ's will tell us the "we are still smoking" - that is a factual lie.

Many ANTZ's will tell us that "we have simply traded an addiction for another" - that is also a lie, because "addiction" is used on a negative light, when there are health risks involved. Smoking is an addiction, but coffee is a dependency. Up to today, there is no proper study showing us there there any significant health risks associated with vaping.


So, at most, we may have traded an addiction for a dependency. Just stating that should make it obvious that there are health benefits involved in that trade. And therefore, there IS a very GOOD point in making that choice. And that vaping is NOT "the same" as smoking.


Other dependencies (caffeine, for example) are not seen as a "problem", because thay are just that: dependencies, not addictions. Why should vaping dependency be seen on a different light? Easy one. Anti-smoking ideology is now being irrationally used against vaping, because those two "resemble" the same. Anti-smoking ideology is being used to attack something unvaluable at keeping people AWAY from smoking !!


Why should THEIR concern about MY vaping depencency be more important than MY concern about MY former smoking addiction ??

"My life. My choice. Period", you said. Unfortunately, that's a simple concept those people seem to have lost.

They are against a choice we made to improve our lives, not because or real concerns (only imaginary and conceptual ones), but because they do not APPROVE that choice.

Well, bite me. I couldn't care less about their "approval"...!

 

[Jman8]

Quitting smoking was/is primary. Quitting vaping is secondary and shouldn't even be a discussion.

It is in this thread, that I started.

Tempted to report posts that's only contribution to this thread is "I will never quit." And is why I noted what I did in OP.

But for now, I'll just note that 'quitting smoking' I believe is around 80% fueled by ANTZ rhetoric and science that is very mainstream, ingrained in our worldwide culture. Take that same level of rhetoric and science, and apply it to vaping, and while there may be a few die-hard vapers who just so happen to be politically aware, I believe there will be a whole bunch of vapers who deem it very important to quit and/or very important to control / ban.

So, while I think it rather easy now to battle ANTZ deception around vaping because it is very very rare that those espousing those views are ex-vapers, I believe it will be more challenging when the normal discourse is between ex-vapers who get the nuances of the vaping discussion. IMO, or even in my experience, if I am discussing ANTZ deception about smoking with never-smokers, it is a very short discussion as the never-smoker has never dug into ANTZ propaganda and is ill prepared to defend it. The ex-smoker, I find a lot more prepared, and yet, I'm up for that discussion any day of the week. And I find a whole bunch of ex-smokers ill prepared for that debate beyond, "my choice is all that matters." Great, but your hate on smoking shows up a lot like emotion rather than reason speaking.