(Almost) IMPOSSIBLE to find safe products for DIY vapers???

[DuaneNeveu]

I originally thought I should post this in the "New Members Forum" given that it deals with some subject matter relevant to a beginner, but after consideration, I elected to put it here so that veteran DIY'ers might have a better chance of seeing it. My apologies for the length and the fact that I made it a fresh post. I just didn't want it getting lost within a larger thread.


I value all of you veterans, truly, I do. I also want it to be clear that I'm not casting aspersions on anyone with these questions, I'm just really trying to learn and do what's best for myself. I don't expect anything handed to me, and it's no exaggeration for me to tell you all that I've probably spent about 80 hours reading contributions to this forum. I'm not a first-time poster who has no respect for the "Search" function of this site. I really have tried to do my part, but...


...I'm simply EXHAUSTED from a week and a half of reading, reading, and more reading on this forum site (and other websites)...and I feel more confused than ever!


Great resource all the same Mistress_of_Design, but for you and others, please suffer further questions/observations from this (relative) noob:

Root Beer Flavor
Contains: Propylene Glycol, Artificial Flavor, Water, Caramel Color, Polysorbate 80, Potassium Sorbate.
Soluble in water.

Wikipedia mentions this in relation to Potassium Sorbate:

Toxicology:
Potassium sorbate is a skin, eye and respiratory irritant, although some research implies it has a long term safety record and non-toxic profile.

Even still, in vaping concentrations, I don't know if Blue is the best colour choice for this ingredient. It sounds Red to me, and I'm worried about using it.

The flavors with coloring are so dangerous and sometimes you just can't find enough info online to make an informed decision.

Dangerous? So many e-juice suppliers sell juices with faint colouring. Is this a bad idea on their part, and an even worse idea on our part to buy these juices from them...or coloured flavours from LorAnn do DIY for that matter?


I'm not sure if "ProfessorDaffy" is just a username or not, but please sir, if you're an actual M.D., please explain what you mean. I'm desperate to know the details, and I promise I'll read every word. Even if others don't I promise I will.

Artificial colors just means that they are not "clear", any liquid you vape that is not clear means there are impurities in it i.e. "the coloring" and it will leave more residue on your atty than ones that are clear. Hence use at your own risk, not recommended for your atty's health but it wont harm you using them.

Now, that conflicts with the above post/quote, and I don't know what to think about these flavours with artificial colours. Are the concentrations small enough to be negligent?

Lorann's Coffee is not intended for vaping as it has dark food coloring in it. This can cause some people to feel that their lungs don't like it. A better coffee for vaping is one that has been made for that purpose, without colorings, such as from DV - Decadent Vapours...

This was the first post (I think) that mentioned our bodies! Most everyone else seemed more concerned with their atomizers when using coloured juice, though I was under the impression that most of us were here for health reasons, in that we're seeking an alternative to tobacco!


While I was out today, I purchased a dozen LorAnn flavours, and it would seem they're mostly useless now and I'll be stuck vaping "Apple" and "Cran-Raspberry" forever, since they're the only ones that are completely clear (although the "Cran-Raspberry" has Citric Acid and Tri-ethyl Citrate in it, and I can find ANYTHING that does or doesn't tell me whether or not those are safe to inhale).


Even my "Bavarian Creme" flavouring is light yellow. Neither the label on it, nor the referred to thread's original post lists "Artificial Color" in the ingredient list, simply "Artificial Flavor". In which case, though LorAnn didn't put any colouring in themselves, the raw artificial flavours they used to concoct "Bavarian Creme" must have had artificial colour in THEM! No?


Really, I'm bloody mentally exhausted! As though it wasn't enough to go to Battery University to learn about the relationship between ohms and Volts, mAh designations, then investigate PV's, attys, cartos, tanks...all told, I'm two weeks and about $700 into this, and as I look at my chest of paraphernalia, I'm feeling like a guy who has to go home to his wife and explain how he lost a bunch of money at the track!


Apologies if this comes off whiny or argumentative. I'm certainly not trying to stir up a pot. I'm simply concerned about whether I made a properly informed choice in doing all this. Not because DIY itself is complicated, but because there's so much ambiguity regarding the raw ingredients. I wanted to DIY in the first place because most juice from vendors wasn't entirely satisfying, and I liked the idea of controlling what goes into my juice and tailoring it to my tastes.


I know I can count on a handful of people to assure me that there really are no good answers and that we're the willing guinea pigs of a young movement, but please...any specifics and assistance with choosing something I can use and still sleep knowing I'm not ignorantly killing myself anyway (just in a slightly tastier fashion) would be great and quite appreciated!

 

[myxomatosis]

I have no insight on your health risks with smoking colored, flavored things. I do it so I'll die with you if that makes you feel any better. In any event, it's got to be somewhat safer than the analog alternative, and if not, we're dying for a scientific cause.

These may interest you:
NF Organic

 

[PhreakySTS9]

I have no insight on your health risks with smoking colored, flavored things. I do it so I'll die with you if that makes you feel any better. In any event, it's got to be somewhat safer than the analog alternative, and if not, we're dying for a scientific cause.

These may interest you:
NF Organic

Wow those flavorings are remarkably similar to the Clouds of Vapor CPN organic line. Not only are his juices organic and alcohol flavoring based(like that site) but he has butterscotch, vanilla cream, caramel cream, kona cream, pancakes, etc. just like that site does. I wonder if that may be where he gets some of his flavorings from or if it's just a coincidence? I'd love to find a butterscotch that emulates the CoV CPN Butterscotch. That would just rock my world and wouldn't have to steep for a month like my tobacco flavorings I just got in today.

 

[tomaKBRN]

Subscribed

 

[echofinder]

Experts agree CoV is probably using NF flavors, at least for butterscotch. The delicious irony, considering the original topic of this thread, is that NF butterscotch (and any of their cream/buttery flavorings) contain diacetyl, which is known to be harmful... "known" as in people have gotten irreparably ill from inhaling it.

Now, this is a good segway for my two points: first, "organic" doesn't mean "good". Pork fat is organic. Petroleum is organic. Feces is organic. None of these things are good for you. Tobacco is organic, as is hemlock.

Second, DIY is complex and exhausting by nature. Like home-brewing, but worse. Props Duane for sticking with and doing the research; I feel your pain... some of that info was new to me. Color isn't the issue - in the same way "organic" =/= "good", "clear" does not mean "safe". Those clear flavorings have chemicals too, otherwise they wouldn't taste like anything. Many flavorings are made from natural ingredients, and most of those ingredients have color. Good luck finding a hickory flavoring that isn't brown. (DIY tip: don't use hickory it's gross).

People have different opinions, and a complex topic breeds complexity of opinions. Some will say color is harmful; others that it isn't. I do not think there will ever be a consistent or certifiably correct answer for that. Take the diacetyl I mentioned earlier: many people avoid it, which makes sense because it is PROVEN harmful. Many others, myself included, do not avoid it. Why? In my case, because I think the fear is overblown and that the concentrations of this substance in flavoring/juice are so low that real harm is nigh impossible. There are numbers and "legitimate" claims to back up both the pro- and anti-diacetyl people. There is no end. Never will be.

In conclusion Duane, the best thing to do is exactly what you have been doing; DIY does allow you to control what enters your juice and thus your body. There is no simple answer. Research, research some more, then go with your gut and buy the things that are right for you. And if you ever want some juice that is 75mg half diacetyl/half antifreeze, the color of a lunar eclipse that glows in the dark, hit me up.

 

[conflator]

I don't say this to be flippant, but as an honest answer to your question - if you DiY, there is the option of vaping unflavoured juice. From a strictly health standpoint, that's likely the safest option. To be honest, I rather like it once in a while, although I will freely admit to being a flavour junky.

The toxicologist's saying applies here - "the dose makes the poison". Just for the heck of it, I just looked up the MSDS sheet for Maltol. It includes information such as:

"Chronic Effects on Humans: May cause damage to the following organs: blood, kidneys, bladder, gastrointestinal tract.
Other Toxic Effects on Humans: Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant)."

and

"If inhaled, remove to fresh air. If not breathing, give artificial respiration. If breathing is difficult, give oxygen. Get medical
attention."

Of course, if you read a bit further, it's LD50 is 1620mg/Kg (rabbit), and isn't controlled under WHMIS. In fact, it's used in perfume, confectionary and lip balm, to name a few.

My point isn't that you're unaware of things like this, just that it is very easy - and natural - for people to worry when they come across things like the information in an MSDS. This spreads, get diluted or enhanced and it becomes very difficult (as you've discovered) to separate the signal from the noise.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned about what we vape. Caution and awareness are good; it's also good to evaluate the source.

(Also $700 in two weeks ?! You don't do anything small, do you ? )

 

[echofinder]

In sufficient quantities oxygen will give you cancer and kill you.

 

[Hoosier]

I've said for a long time, if you want to further minimize the risks of vaping, then make unflavored juice. There are some studies on inhaling flavoring, so far just FA's that I've found, but they do not use humans or any animals. Even if they did use an animal it would have to be a series of short and long term studies to start to have an understanding. So it is an unknown. It is not safe. If that is a concern, then don't do it.

Now, as far as coloring... Coloring is adding a chemical just to make a color. Not all chemicals are glass clear or even water clear. You can have colored flavoring without any coloring being added as the chemical mixture to make the flavoring can have a color naturally. If all chemicals were colorless, then fall would be a pretty boring season everywhere.

Quite frankly, it is impossible to find safe components for DIY. To be safe, they would have to have absolutely verified no harmful impact on any human, animal, or plant. "Absolutely" is difficult enough, but verified is impossible. It is this exact point that anti-e-cig groups use to say that smoking cigarettes is preferred. Burning tobacco has hundreds of years of study behind it and is verifiable, thus it has a well defined margin of safety. It may be bad, but it is verified and defined, but most of all it is a known.

 

[BakuPeg]

OP, what is "safe", what does it mean? What would you consider "safe?"
Smoking isn't safe, vaping is only "safe-er". Is breathing safe?
Are vendor juices "safer" than DIY? - NOPE. (They use the same items we use, just in bulk)


Instead of posting quotes of other people please help me understand EXACTLY what do you mean by.. SAFE??

*edit* I know when I walk into my workplace I can smell the ozone from the hundreds of computers on 24/7 in this huge office building. That is probably worse for me than vaping flavored air. I need to work, so I will breath it in. Life is not safe. Unless you live in a bubble.
So yeah to your last question you could be slowly doing yourself in. But then again any one of us could go by a stroke/car accident/or a tumble off a cliff. The whole purpose of this is to get us off the stinkies and keep us off. To that end I choose to live and vape.

 

[echofinder]

OP, what is "safe", what does it mean? What would you consider "safe?"
Smoking isn't safe, vaping is only "safe-er". Is breathing safe?
Are vendor juices "safer" than DIY? - NOPE. (They use the same items we use, just in bulk)


Instead of posting quotes of other people please help me understand EXACTLY what do you mean by.. SAFE??

*edit* I know when I walk into my workplace I can smell the ozone from the hundreds of computers on 24/7 in this huge office building. That is probably worse for me than vaping flavored air. I need to work, so I will breath it in. Life is not safe. Unless you live in a bubble.
So yeah to your last question you could be slowly doing yourself in. But then again any one of us could go by a stroke/car accident/or a tumble off a cliff. The whole purpose of this is to get us off the stinkies and keep us off. To that end I choose to live and vape.

That's the point: there is no definition of safe, only the ones we define personally. One must have empathy for an individual who is trying to craft his definition while wading through the huge and chaotic world of DIY vaping.

It is hard for me too, as I am not very health-conscious at all, and I tend to judge those who go overboard with the health/safety thing... but one must remember that quitting analogs is a huge .......in' deal, impossible for most (before ecigs anyway). Many people feel the desire, while already undertaking the huge life-changing step of quitting, to seek improvements in health in other areas of life as well. Why not? You are already miserable from withdrawal, might as well get the most bang for the buck, as it were.

Many people would quit, or refuse to work in a place with so much ozone. Sounds ridiculous I know, but those people are out there. If they come into my house and criticize my lifestyle we will have a biiiiig issue, but as far as I am concerned your choices are your business. If Duane wants to go hardcore with the health aspect of vaping, more power to him.

 

[Hoosier]

That's the point: there is no definition of safe, only the ones we define personally. One must have empathy for an individual who is trying to craft his definition while wading through the huge and chaotic world of DIY vaping.

It is hard for me too, as I am not very health-conscious at all, and I tend to judge those who go overboard with the health/safety thing... but one must remember that quitting analogs is a huge .......in' deal, impossible for most (before ecigs anyway). Many people feel the desire, while already undertaking the huge life-changing step of quitting, to seek improvements in health in other areas of life as well. Why not? You are already miserable from withdrawal, might as well get the most bang for the buck, as it were.

Many people would quit, or refuse to work in a place with so much ozone. Sounds ridiculous I know, but those people are out there. If they come into my house and criticize my lifestyle we will have a biiiiig issue, but as far as I am concerned your choices are your business. If Duane wants to go hardcore with the health aspect of vaping, more power to him.

I agree to a point. Safe has a meaning, but it's an impossible target to hit. I work with safety factors all day, so I can give a numeric reference to safety. I can spit out a design that has 5:1 safety factor, which is pretty good, but it's not safe. (It is safer than 4:1 though.)

The more important point is, how hard is the individual in question going to screw themselves into the ground? Chasing something like "safe" without a risk threshold reference leads to Howard Hughes types of screwing into the ground. Do they start to consider their phosphoric acid intake? Or reactive gas inhalation? (Like your ozone example) Safe is an absolute word in a world of infinite risk. It just seems mighty odd that a smoker, of all the types of people, would suddenly have a horribly low risk tolerance.

 

[NatTheBrit]

Kudos to you Duane for bringing this to light. I myself am relatively new to the DIY juice world and i'm still slightly scared by it all. But having said that it's a chance i'm willing to take. There's no way on this earth it can be worse for your body than those awful analogs.
I am extremely thankful i have discovered Vaping and i'm even more thankful to this and other forums for allowing me to research and learn almost everything i need to know about it all.

 

[Los Marauder]

Duane- Hoosier is one of the all time great DIY ECF vets. Maybe you could PM him and ask what brands or flavors he thinks are the safest. I use Capellas flavors because they changed some ingrediants so as to be more vapeable. This doesn't mean that they are "safe" and to be honest, many other companies may have done the same. If Hoosier can't tell you, no one can. Sorry about the pedistal I put you on here Hoosier, but you are DA MAN.

 

[junkman]

I thought there were some tests of the vapor done? Granted they have not tested all possible permutations, but the tests i have seen all indicate reduced risk from tobacco. Or am I missing something?

 

[Hoosier]

I thought there were some tests of the vapor done? Granted they have not tested all possible permutations, but the tests i have seen all indicate reduced risk from tobacco. Or am I missing something?

The only thing you might be missing is that reduced risk is no where close to "safe". Flying in a single engine plane is reduced risk compared to driving or even walking on a downtown sidewalk.

None of the studies I've read used humans for long term tests. (Not that vaping has been around long enough to actually have long term tests, but that's another story for another time.)

 

[DuaneNeveu]

Instead of posting quotes of other people please help me understand EXACTLY what do you mean by.. SAFE??...Life is not safe. Unless you live in a bubble...

Hopefully quoting you BakuPeg won't cause you to become impatient with me, but I just want to be more clear as you requested.

Please don't misunderstand, friends and comrades. I'm not looking for anyone to assure me of anything being completely "safe". I'm quite aware that such a pronouncement is impossible. I can be happy, as most of you are, with "safer" than what I was doing...and let me be clear that I'm not exactly a health nut either.

The truth is, I have no wish to live in a bubble. I'm okay with my life having certain elements of risk, or I never would have picked up a cigarette, hundreds of cigars, and enjoyed many bowls from my pipes, all the while knowing what they were doing to me.

My concern was the conflicting nature of what some of the veterans had to say. While some assured that artificial colouring was no big deal (and that one should be primarily concerned with the life of their atomizers), while another simply stated that "The flavors with coloring are so dangerous...". I considered that I would be a fool not to at least ask for that statement to be qualified somehow.

One must have empathy for an individual who is trying to craft his definition while wading through the huge and chaotic world of DIY vaping...as far as I am concerned your choices are your business. If Duane wants to go hardcore with the health aspect of vaping, more power to him.

Your comments are very appreciated echofinder, and I thank you for your patience and understanding.

The words "so dangerous" were alarming, because to me it sound as though vaping flavours with colouring might be more dangerous than tobacco. I wondered if perhaps vaping that kind of thing was likely to cause my lungs to atrophy inside of a year or two. If the poster could have qualified "so dangerous" more accurately, I could then make a more informed decision about whether vaping was my best bet, or some other method of weening myself off nicotine would be better. I have since asked him to do just that for me so that I'll be better informed.

As it stands, I'm actually quite enthralled with this vaping thing (made obvious by my already large financial investment), and I don't want to quit. It's the best thing I've found for me so far...

But it's more than being about me. I have relatives that have died from prolonged tobacco use and lung disease (as many of us likely do), the most recent casualty (my uncle) we buried two weeks ago, two days after I started vaping. My father has smoked my whole life. I'm actually not trying to go hardcore regarding the healthy aspect of vaping for myself. I'm trying to arm myself with as much knowledge as possible, so as to make my mission the potential saving of the lives of the people that I love, by converting them.

I didn't come to whine and cry, I'm only seeking knowledge...as much as possible. I've gone so far as registering a web domain where I can point my friends and family to (more) quickly and easily take advantage of the information that I've been able to disseminate in their stead. I envy some their vaping bliss, but that's just not the way I'm built. I'm just asking to know more where I can't find answers otherwise.

 

[junkman]

The only thing you might be missing is that reduced risk is no where close to "safe". Flying in a single engine plane is reduced risk compared to driving or even walking on a downtown sidewalk.

None of the studies I've read used humans for long term tests. (Not that vaping has been around long enough to actually have long term tests, but that's another story for another time.)

Yeah, reduced risk. In that the dangerous chemicals they found were present at much lower levels than present in cigarettes, and no known dangerous chemicals were found at signficant levels.

To the OP, if you are going from smoking cigs to vaping, in my opinion you should be confident that you are reducing risk, but if you want 100% assurances that you will die from something else, you should quit cigs and vaping.

 

[Lyndagayle]

While we won't know for quite some time just how safe or how dangerous vaping is, from my own experience, I know that it is much safer than smoking. I'm getting close to my 3 year vaping with no cigs anniversary and during this time span I went from being diagnosed with severe COPD to well within the normal range for my age on the spyrometer test. I did better on my last test than co-workers who are younger than me and have never smoked. My teeth are in great shape now and all my blood tests are normal. I'd think that as much as I vape (and I vape constantly) something would be cropping up. The worst thing I've experienced is a sore mouth during my early vaping days but even that hasn't been a problem for quite some time. I tend to let my body be my guide i.e. I rarely vape cinnamon because it tends to make my mouth and throat sore after an extended vaping session with it and I can't use low resistance attys for the same reason. I have an Ego VV and keep it set on 3.8 and it works great. I even use small amounts of vanilla custard flavoring (Capella) in some of my recipes. About the only thing I steer clear of is anything listed on a website warning us of a potential risk with certain flavors. I'm thankful we have some caring vendors who want to keep us as safe as possible. I would never add food coloring to a juice but I don't shy away from flavors I enjoy that happens to have some color to it. I've never even had a problem with clogged attys from vaping dark juices but again, I keep it simple. Ego VV + 510 atty + drip tip = success for this gal.

 

[Hoosier]

My concern was the conflicting nature of what some of the veterans had to say. While some assured that artificial colouring was no big deal (and that one should be primarily concerned with the life of their atomizers), while another simply stated that "The flavors with coloring are so dangerous...". I considered that I would be a fool not to at least ask for that statement to be qualified somehow.

Just because someone is a vet on ECF does not mean they are experts, nor are they infallible. That includes myself.

I've done my share of attempting to steer folks from using coloring. For a simple reason. If it is not needed to make a good vape, what's the point? Colorings haven't been studied for what we do with them, like so many other things, but it is meaningless to making a great vape. It can clog coils and I have no idea what it will do to a person and have seen no studies on what it may do. It may be none, all colorings, or it may be one or two that could have a harmful effect, but I have no idea and I've tried to find out.

Basically, if it's not needed, why add it?

Keep searching. The more of us looking at things, the better. If it get overwhelming, vape and hit other types of sites.

 

[DuaneNeveu]

I'm getting close to my 3 year vaping with no cigs anniversary and during this time span I went from being diagnosed with severe COPD to well within the normal range for my age on the spyrometer test. I did better on my last test than co-workers who are younger than me and have never smoked. My teeth are in great shape now and all my blood tests are normal. I'd think that as much as I vape (and I vape constantly) something would be cropping up...

Congratulations Lyndagayle! This put a huge grin on my face.

Just because someone is a vet on ECF does not mean they are experts, nor are they infallible. That includes myself.

Hear, hear! I'll never completely hold anyone to what they tell me here. I'm just happy that all you vets are willing to share whatever you've learned. I'm just hoping to find more crazies like me who use truck loads of their personal time to investigate. Then, I can beg them for guidance to whatever information they've found so that I can digest it myself, or to share whatever empirical evidence they and their doctors have discovered during their own experience.

I'll tell you what, I'm sure glad I found this web forum all the same. As tiring as it is to sift through the volume of information here, better it exists than not.