Am I the only one who wants vaping to change?

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Thepinfamily

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Oh yeah! This is an historical thread. Way to go OP. I believe all consumers have been lead on for so long they don't see right or think right.
In natural horsemanship and trailer loading they say "it's not about the trailer, it's about the relationship you have with the horse." or let's put it another way. It's not about the end result, it's about the process. What everyone seems to be saying in response to your post, which I believe you meant you want more QC and standardization, is that there are a lot of ways to get that. I need to be my own advocate in my world. It's my responsibility to get verification on something that is being told to me or information on whats being sold to me. I dont have to buy it. If I don't have time for all that maybe I should make time. Turn off the TV. I think we need more independence, freedom of choice, self reliance, responsibility for our own choices, responsibility for ourselves for heavens sake and room to grow and learn which always involves making mistakes. How can that be standardized? By doing my own QC. DIY. With hardware make some mistakes and try a variety of options, the things that really don't work well won't be available long. That's why it appears chaotic but really it's NOT. Its resourceful. A little investment of my own time and my own money I can achieve the standard and QC as best as possible with what is available out there. So many good points have been made due to your post. Even if we misunderstood. Doesn't matter. Beauty of free speech.

Ho can you interpret this thread as having anything to do with DIY? I don't have the health dept come into my house when I cook dinner to make sure I'm doing it right. DIY and standardization/QC in the industry have nothing to do with each other.
As for verification being your responsibility, yes it is. Although you don't have time in your life to verify and research everything you do, eat, drink, vape, etc. even if you do turn the TV off. (A point I agree with, tv rots the brain). Like it or not most of that has already been done for you. You also don't have the resources to properly research everything you would like to. Unless you are an expert in all fields you must rely on others to do the research. I have been reading this forum everyday for the last 30+ days. While there is a ton of good information here it is obvious we do not have all the answers. I don't like that. I want all the answers. Sticking with the low budget, mom and pop road will net the answers in time but how much time is what concerns me. Science and technology will result in much quicker answers. It could be a difference in two years from now or 10 years from now.
It's obvious no one here wants to hear this but money makes the world go round. If this industry goes unregulated big money will get in. There is a lot of money to be made here. This product works and works well. If this industry gets highly regulated big money will still get in. It's not a matter of if its a matter of who. If you don't believe this your fooling yourselves.
 

tommy2bad

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I started to respond to each and every thread but it turns out they are all basically same. Just anti-government drivel with no real thought about what I put in my original post. In my op I spoke of science and technology not government. The closest thing I said to government was the health department comment. Is the health department bad also? If you think it is your fooling yourself. The health dept has protected many, many consumer throughout the years. Without them your gambling every time you walk into an unknown restaurant for dinner. People on this planet come from all walks of life, some with much lower sanitary standards than your used to. Your used to those standards because of the health dept. Eat where you want but I prefer eating from the restaurant with a five start rating from them.
In your posts some of you we're hung up on the fact that the hobbyists and mom and pop operations moved this industry in a direction the big corporations could or did not. I don't argue with that, it's a fact. Some of the greatest inventions on the planet come from the basement inventor or the little guy with a big idea. That's going to happen no matter what. You can't stop it. Whoever controls the vaping industry are going to get some of there biggest ideas from the little guy. History has proven that time and time again. You think Alexander Gram Bell was a big corporation?
Lots of you mentioned wal-mart and big retail making quality go down and prices go up. That's true if that's how you choose to spend your money. I will spend mine on BMW and Mercedes. I will drink my grey goose vodka instead of Smirnoff. I will buy e juice that is scientifically designed to be the best it can be. As with all things invented there will be a growth period and a learning curve. The price will go up at first. More and more company's will get a quality product on the shelves to compete and the prices will go down. This is the natural progression. It will happen if the FDA doesn't squash the whole industry first. I'm sure there is lots of money just waiting to see where the chips will fall in court. I live in Loudon county, in Northern Virginia. Tons of trendy, yuppy, thirty something, college educated, government employees that smoke. I'm 20 minutes from Washington DC and I don't have a brick and mortar vape store within an hour and a half of me. Why? Because its a risky investment right now. To many chips in the air. When those chips fall, if they fall correctly, lots of money will be dropped. I'm sure I will see vape stores opening all over. Once upon a time in this country we made moonshine in our back yards. Some was good and some killed you. The problem was unless you knew the moonshiner personally you were taking a gamble every time you bought some. It could be fire water from the gods or make you go blind, you just didn't know. Lots of people got hurt. [ENTER SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY] Now look at the liquor industry. It's thriving. Every bottle you pull off the shelf is the same and perfect. We know all the facts. No more hearsay or rumors about what works and what doesn't. How many of you want to go back to the moonshine days? How many of you boycott liquor because its taxed by the government?
As for all of you who put words in my mouth with your anti-government agendas, shame one you. This thread had practically nothing to do with the government. I spoke of science and technology. I'll be back, time to get the kids out the door.

Hey, I'm not arguing, regulation and testing has kept a standard of sorts on the shelves for a while now and I don't want to go back to the days of wildly differing standards that have no comparison to each other.
We need regulation and investment and lots of other things. What we don't need is to be shoehorned into a set of regulations that were designed for some other product. Should cars be regulated as horses because they use the roads that were built for horses?

The liqueur industry is a good analogy for what bad regulation can do, witness prohibition, it's also an example of how regulation can prevent things like poisoning. Though in Ukraine or it could be the Check Rep I disremember, regulation resulted in illegal spirits being added to the approved stuff to avoid over taxation. Result poisoning.

Again we are not against regulation, just wrong regulation.
 

Tanti

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"It's obvious no one here wants to hear this but money makes the world go round. If this industry goes unregulated big money will get in. There is a lot of money to be made here. This product works and works well. If this industry gets highly regulated big money will still get in. It's not a matter of if its a matter of who. If you don't believe this your fooling yourselves"

who do you think is going to do this regulating your talking about. I was in a vaping store a few days go, board of health and there little sign on the wall with an big old A on it. There are plenty of these places that are available on line to order from. DO your research, we did.
You want answers , WOW, this industery is still evolving. New and better mods are being made all the time. You really need to get in touch with what is being done. You can even get a 200.00 mod and Russia makes a mod that cost 600+ dollers if you want to spend the big bucks. I dont think you have looked into this very far or very hard. There are lots and lots of really good companies out there that have dumped lots on money into development. Vision being one off the top of my head. These are not mom and pop stores by no means. They have started an association for standards quite a few companies are approved by the association. Im really not sure what answers you want.
 

Thepinfamily

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science and technology is great until, FDA, big business and taxing and everyone else gets their hands in on it. Tobacco is big money for alot of people, booze is also big business and lots of money for lots of people. There are alot of back door deals going on. If there wernt then tobacco would have been ban along time ago as soon as they found out how deadly it is.
Let me ask you this, tell me you have never bought a cookie or cake or any home made item from a bake sale, or road side stand. Did you know how they were made? How about local made jellys and jams, did you know how they were made. Or do you only buy things that are health department checked. Oh how about that little girl with lemonaid on the corner?
These e-cigs hurt big business including government business (taxes). And they can see e-cigs are big business.

Right now e-cigs and all the things that go along with them are being developed by users. What knows best for the industry but people who use the items. I can almost predict that if the government (FDA) gets into it they will do away with all the fun flavors. They will reduce what e-cigs that are available to what they think is with in what guide line they would set up.

Since Blu is own by one of the tobacco giants, guess what we will have available to us Blu products. All the other FDA approved smoking cessation products dont really work, with a 90% failure rate, it could possibly the e-cig could go the way of them. I can see what will happen cause having worked in a pharmacy for 21 years I saw what the FDA does. They can do this a few different ways regulate who can buy nicotine. Put restrictions on who can manufacture ejuice, put restictions on what e-cig can do and how they can look. They could make it so you cant even drip your own ejuice and have it prefilled carts only with just a few generic flavors. Oh and the whole testing that FDA will demand that is very expensive that little manufactures wont beable to afford, so only the drug companys or tobacco companies will have that kind of money. Oh they can do alot. So when ever anyone says they would like to see what you said you want makes me cringe cause that is just one step closer to the doom of free market and choice. Government then will want their piece of the pie, tax the heck out of them cause they are loosing tax revenue from all these people that arnt smoking anymore.

So its not shame on me ! I guess you dont see a slippery slide you are asking for.

If you are so worried about how something is made use a company that is FDA reg or use a on line company that has a brick and mortar like Pinkspot vapors. Or theres one itn Tenn, and WI. There are quite a few of them.

This is getting tiring. Again, I never said I want the FDA involved. I don't. There are lots of ways to standardize things. Just because you have an agenda doesn't mean my thread has something to do with it. Yes, of course I've bought stuff from cake sales. No, I don't only buy stuff checked by the health dept. let me clue you in. BUYING A GLASS OF LEMONADE FROM MY NEIGHBORS LITTLE GIRL IS DIFFERENT THEN INHALING VAPOR FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS. Do you not get that? I'll say this for the last time also. YOU CAN'T STOP IT! Doesn't matter how the chips fall in court, when they do fall someone with deep pockets will be waiting to jump in. This is America and and you can't make a law that says only mom and pop operations are allowed to make e-cigs. If the industry goes unregulated the appropriate guy with big money will get in. It could be BT or just some super rich guy who sees an opportunity. If it gets regulated up the tail than again the appropriate guy with big money will get in. Be it BP or just some super rich guy. Unless the product is banned someone will get in. Guys with big money are not stupid. They are not going to invest millions in a product that still has a questionable future. When the chips fall the money will be invested. Don't get mad at me it's just a fact. To much money to be made for the rich guys to sit and watch.
 

Leatherneck

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I started to respond to each and every thread but it turns out they are all basically same. Just anti-government drivel with no real thought about what I put in my original post. In my op I spoke of science and technology not government. The closest thing I said to government was the health department comment. Is the health department bad also? If you think it is your fooling yourself. The health dept has protected many, many consumer throughout the years. Without them your gambling every time you walk into an unknown restaurant for dinner. People on this planet come from all walks of life, some with much lower sanitary standards than your used to. Your used to those standards because of the health dept. Eat where you want but I prefer eating from the restaurant with a five start rating from them.
In your posts some of you we're hung up on the fact that the hobbyists and mom and pop operations moved this industry in a direction the big corporations could or did not. I don't argue with that, it's a fact. Some of the greatest inventions on the planet come from the basement inventor or the little guy with a big idea. That's going to happen no matter what. You can't stop it. Whoever controls the vaping industry are going to get some of there biggest ideas from the little guy. History has proven that time and time again. You think Alexander Gram Bell was a big corporation?
Lots of you mentioned wal-mart and big retail making quality go down and prices go up. That's true if that's how you choose to spend your money. I will spend mine on BMW and Mercedes. I will drink my grey goose vodka instead of Smirnoff. I will buy e juice that is scientifically designed to be the best it can be. As with all things invented there will be a growth period and a learning curve. The price will go up at first. More and more company's will get a quality product on the shelves to compete and the prices will go down. This is the natural progression. It will happen if the FDA doesn't squash the whole industry first. I'm sure there is lots of money just waiting to see where the chips will fall in court. I live in Loudon county, in Northern Virginia. Tons of trendy, yuppy, thirty something, college educated, government employees that smoke. I'm 20 minutes from Washington DC and I don't have a brick and mortar vape store within an hour and a half of me. Why? Because its a risky investment right now. To many chips in the air. When those chips fall, if they fall correctly, lots of money will be dropped. I'm sure I will see vape stores opening all over. Once upon a time in this country we made moonshine in our back yards. Some was good and some killed you. The problem was unless you knew the moonshiner personally you were taking a gamble every time you bought some. It could be fire water from the gods or make you go blind, you just didn't know. Lots of people got hurt. [ENTER SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY] Now look at the liquor industry. It's thriving. Every bottle you pull off the shelf is the same and perfect. We know all the facts. No more hearsay or rumors about what works and what doesn't. How many of you want to go back to the moonshine days? How many of you boycott liquor because its taxed by the government?
As for all of you who put words in my mouth with your anti-government agendas, shame one you. This thread had practically nothing to do with the government. I spoke of science and technology. I'll be back, time to get the kids out the door.

It has everything to do with government. There is already an independent, non-governmental group (AEMSA | American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association) that has been set up to create standards for e-liquid. If that isn't good enough for you, then you're talking about government, because that's the role they've taken for themselves.

I work for government at a regulatory agency for the largest industry in my state. It's one I can believe in, one that I believe is important. But even then I've seen good ideas gone bad and bad ideas disguised in good intentions. I've seen how businesses argue for more regulation, requirements that other companies buy their product (in the most recent case it's continuing education). I've seen regulations enacted that even the agency administrator is scratching his head over that seems to regulate for the sole purpose of regulating. I have watched the number of businesses drop dramatically over the last few years as the cost of doing business has skyrocketed. Granted, some of it has been the economy, but there is ample evidence that it is the cost of keeping the doors open. I know better than to believe in the phrase "I'm from the government, I'm here to help".

And that's regulation I believe in.

So, in short, if you're fine with a non-governmental entity serving as a watch-dog, then cheer, because we already have that in the form of AEMSA. If you're looking to the government to keep things safe, then all I can say is "Be careful what you wish for, because you may receive it".
 

Tanti

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This is getting tiring. Again, I never said I want the FDA involved. I don't. There are lots of ways to standardize things. Just because you have an agenda doesn't mean my thread has something to do with it. Yes, of course I've bought stuff from cake sales. No, I don't only buy stuff checked by the health dept. let me clue you in. BUYING A GLASS OF LEMONADE FROM MY NEIGHBORS LITTLE GIRL IS DIFFERENT THEN INHALING VAPOR FOR THE NEXT 20 YEARS. Do you not get that? I'll say this for the last time also. YOU CAN'T STOP IT! Doesn't matter how the chips fall in court, when they do fall someone with deep pockets will be waiting to jump in. This is America and and you can't make a law that says only mom and pop operations are allowed to make e-cigs. If the industry goes unregulated the appropriate guy with big money will get in. It could be BT or just some super rich guy who sees an opportunity. If it gets regulated up the tail than again the appropriate guy with big money will get in. Be it BP or just some super rich guy. Unless the product is banned someone will get in. Guys with big money are not stupid. They are not going to invest millions in a product that still has a questionable future. When the chips fall the money will be invested. Don't get mad at me it's just a fact. To much money to be made for the rich guys to sit and watch.

Regulating and standardizing is two different things. which do you want?

The standard with e-cigs you have may choices of types of batteries, did you just one type or two types or ? standard of how much nic you can have in your juice, some companies offer 36 but most offer 24,18 and on down. Standard mix using 100% PG or 100% VG or a 50/50 mix of the two. . standard in carts, clearos and so on all fit eather the 901, 808d, or 501 threads. Standard of voltage well you get a choice there. Isnt choice a great thing.

By the way you have been putting 4000 nasty chemicals in your body for how ever long and your worried about how and who is making your e-juice. I bet you thought you were safe with the tobacco companies making your analogs right?

If left alone this market will work it self out with standards. There are many people working to get standards. People have spent lots of money to progress this market because the see how important it is. See they are into it for the right reason unlike how it would be with the drug companys and tobacco companys.
 

mmikee

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I dont trust the gov to do anything ecig related correctly. Most of these people (US politicians) think that borrowing money every year just to pay the interest on borrowed money is a sound way to do business. They simply DO NOT have our best interest in mind.
BT...I cant even imagine a scenario where this equals a win for consumers.
I will say that I dont know what the answers to all these questions are, but these yayhoos dont have a clue.
 

beev

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Jan 21, 2013
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I have some thoughts on this whole vaping thing i felt like spelling out. Im a noob of about 6 weeks. I dont even have my ADV figured out yet. Maybe once I get settled in my feelings on this whole thing will change. A new vapors feeling and views are actually quite important. Everyone goes through this stage. Some stick through it and some don't. Im choosing to stick through it.
I get the impression that most vapers here like the way the vaping world is structured and want it to stay the way it is. I disagree and I believe if it stays the way it is it will not survive. Its new and I get that but from what ive seen a large part of the vaping world is mom and pop, basement and low budget setups. I do see there are bigger vendors putting out better products but they are very few and far between relative to the numbers. I dont want the FDA to ban it. I dont want big pharm to control it either but I feel like something more needs to happen to vaping. I feel like it needs science and money to create facts and hard evidence about it. I feel like everything I try to figure out about vaping is full of speculation and rumors. Ive been obsessed with vaping research for the last month on every topic you can think of but I find few facts. All I get is what Johnny thinks works but billy says thats crap and his way works better. I order ejuice that has poison and chemicals is it and jo blow is mixing it up in his basement. Who the hell is jo blow? I need juice but I want Dr science mixing it up using his sterile lab to analyze it before he sends it to me. I don't want juice I need to steep. I shouldnt have to steep a product im buying. I dont need to steep Blu cartos. I guarantee Dr Science and his team of nerds could figure out just what the whole steeping thing is and take care of the whole thing for me. All anyone really knows about steeping is what seems to work for them. Im inhaling juice as a healthier alternative to smoking and thats what I want it to be. I dont want to buy it from a guy trying to make a buck in his free time, buying ingredients from god knows where, mixing it up while he watches tv with no shirt on. I want the health department watching where he does it, what he puts in it and how the final product turns out.
It goes beyond the juice making. I think the whole industry is being held up not wanting bigger players to step in. I want science and technology to prefect e-cigs. I want the learning curve to be straightened out but until then I will keep doing what the rest of you are doing, learning through trial and error.


The LAST thing that the vaping industry needs, is for government to step in. Goverment has ceased being a consistently fair impartial or just entity, and all too often falls into the role of being a club one side of any given issue uses to beat those on the other side over the head with. Such could much too easily be the case with vaping.

You can see this on many many issues. We ALREADY have the ignorant preaching their ignorance on vaping in many cases, the anti-smoking people falling in line behind them. And I say that as someone that hopes to never again smoke another cig but also thinks that in many if not most cases, the anti-tobacco people, the anti-soda people the anti gun people and a few other antis for that matter, could get a life and stop telling everyone else how to live theirs, and make the country a much better place in the process. We've become a nation of people that think its our business to tell everyone else how to live. /rant off

In some ways, I too wish the industry wasn't in its infancy, and that it was more matured in terms of technology. I'd like to see more anodized goodies for the ego threads for example - anodized aluminum tank cones for example. But I'd MUCH rather have it how it is, than over regulated and filled with red tape - or subject to the self appointed morality brigade. And, I'd rather have it how it is NOW, with me able to continue to be able to use a device and liquid which are granted, not perfect, but DO keep me off analogues, AND are far less harmful than the analogues are to my health and tantis.

Chevrolet and ford were once "mom and pop", and trying to make a buck in their spare time too. Nothing starts out big, and nothing is ever final or finished or done evolving. Much like many mmo players - WE are the testers - in terms of equipment and in terms of juice flavor in our case. These "mom and pop" shops you refer to, they are and have been making devices, flavors, changes, and improvements based on feedback they get from us - their customers. They talk to us, we talk to them, and they listen. This industry is growing at a frankly fantastic rate because of it. Trust me, government involvement beyond a certain point isn't going to help that. And, "Dr Science and his team of nerds" once created thalidamide and tested l$D on prison inmates, and sprayed Serratia and Bacillus microbes on entire cities in tests, so don't be so quick to put your trust in them.

What you're looking for, and talking about, when you say "what Johnny thinks works but billy says thats crap and his way works better", is a single flavor of ciggs that work for everyone - clearly, analogue cigs do not work that way. Or a single flavor of pizza that works for everyone. Again, clearly not meshing with reality. Do you like your soda out of a can? Or out of a bottle? What about everyone that likes it the other way from you...are they wrong? The point - is that you're looking for something that will not happen, because it can not happen, because people don't work that way. Think of it more along the lines of your chosen cigarette brand going belly up. Some people are gonna tell you winstons are great. Others are going to say merit. others yet will say marlboro. Well, damn, none of those are your camels, right? Its going to take time for you to find something you like again, and you might NEVER find something you'll like, but you'll adapt - you have to - because you're an addict (assuming you were/are a smoker, most of us were). Let that sink in a minute. Yes, you are an addict.


I don't think the industry is being held up at all. Theres simply no jumping from b or c where were at, to z, where you want things to be, and "bigger players" aren't going to make it happen any faster, nor are they going to make it happen any better. Right now, the industry is being driven by the people that support it, and as long as that remains the case, it will go where, how, and as it should.

If you want things to go faster and better, support the industry. Support the people working their butts off to improve things for we addicts. Get involved. Give feedback to the people that are making the hardware and juices. Discuss things with others with greater and lesser levels of experience, learn when and where you can, and give back by teaching others what you've learned when an opportunity presents itself.

Be part of the solution.
 
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kewlceo

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Yeah, in a way I see what the OP means. Remember when you smoked? you didn't have to think about anything...

And we all know how well that worked out, lol.

This is getting tiring. Again, I never said I want the FDA involved. I don't. There are lots of ways to standardize things.

We already have standardization, we just need more e-liquid vendors involved. Meanwhile, deal with those on the following list:

American E-Liquid Manufacturing Standards Association
Charter Members
BlueMist Vaping
Hot Vapes
iVape / JP ventures LLC
Juicy Vapor, LLC
Kalamazoo Vapor Shop
Mister-E-Liquid
NicVape
NicQuid
Texas Select Vapor
VaporCast

General Members
MADVAPES
TV Labs E-lixer
Two Peas in a Pod Gourmet E Liquid

Source: MEMBERS | AEMSA
 

Saintly1

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I have some thoughts on this whole vaping thing i felt like spelling out. Im a noob of about 6 weeks. I dont even have my ADV figured out yet. Maybe once I get settled in my feelings on this whole thing will change. A new vapors feeling and views are actually quite important. Everyone goes through this stage. Some stick through it and some don't. Im choosing to stick through it.
I get the impression that most vapers here like the way the vaping world is structured and want it to stay the way it is. I disagree and I believe if it stays the way it is it will not survive. Its new and I get that but from what ive seen a large part of the vaping world is mom and pop, basement and low budget setups. I do see there are bigger vendors putting out better products but they are very few and far between relative to the numbers. I dont want the FDA to ban it. I dont want big pharm to control it either but I feel like something more needs to happen to vaping. I feel like it needs science and money to create facts and hard evidence about it. I feel like everything I try to figure out about vaping is full of speculation and rumors. Ive been obsessed with vaping research for the last month on every topic you can think of but I find few facts. All I get is what Johnny thinks works but billy says thats crap and his way works better. I order ejuice that has poison and chemicals is it and jo blow is mixing it up in his basement. Who the hell is jo blow? I need juice but I want Dr science mixing it up using his sterile lab to analyze it before he sends it to me. I don't want juice I need to steep. I shouldnt have to steep a product im buying. I dont need to steep Blu cartos. I guarantee Dr Science and his team of nerds could figure out just what the whole steeping thing is and take care of the whole thing for me. All anyone really knows about steeping is what seems to work for them. Im inhaling juice as a healthier alternative to smoking and thats what I want it to be. I dont want to buy it from a guy trying to make a buck in his free time, buying ingredients from god knows where, mixing it up while he watches tv with no shirt on. I want the health department watching where he does it, what he puts in it and how the final product turns out.
It goes beyond the juice making. I think the whole industry is being held up not wanting bigger players to step in. I want science and technology to prefect e-cigs. I want the learning curve to be straightened out but until then I will keep doing what the rest of you are doing, learning through trial and error.

I've read this entire thread and I believe that what you are looking for is on it's way. You're looking for a device that's as transparent and "safe" as cigarettes. I'm using the term safe loosely there to indicate that they are manufactured in a clean environment. I consider that to be a very reasonable request and I know plenty of others that feel the same way. They aren't here in this forum because they aren't vapers. They aren't vapers because of where the industry is at the moment. The majority of people here are gadget people, myself included, so we aren't concerned about steeping or refilling or whatever we have to do to make vaping work for us. We enjoy it just as it is. With that said...

As others have stated, vaping is still in its infancy. 60 years ago you had to replace tubes in your TV/radio, today we have flat screen TVs mounted to our wall. Vaping is just getting past the "tube" stage at this point. That is beginning to change and more and more big companies will be getting in to the market. Lorillard is evidence of that right now. They are mass producing Blu e-cigs and flooding the market with them. R.J. Reynolds is there as well even though we haven't seen a product from them yet. Both companies submitted comments to the FDA concerning electronic cigarette regulation. Once BT kicks in full steam we'll be seeing more and more Blu type cigs and you'll have the transparency that you and others are looking for.

In the mean time we have our mom and pop shops. I don't buy into the idea that only big corporations will kill the mom and pop shops. I've already seen the current mom and pop shops killing other mom and pop shops. Look at Janty for example. They invented the eGo system, manual batteries, and USB passthroughs. All of which are pretty much standard for most e-cigs. But where is Janty now? They've been taken over by all the copycats. I don't disagree with the copycats, only pointing out that it doesn't have to be a big corporation to have an effect on the market, competition will do that regardless of the size of the company.

As for safety, how many people die each year due to Salmonella poisoning of food that came from a Health Dept. inspected factory? Don't be suckered in to thinking that just because someone is "watching" means it's any safer than Joe Blow mixing juice in his kitchen. People here all want the same safety as you and I can assure you that if a vendor is selling juices that make people sick it will be announced here and that vendor will be out. We all want vaping to succeed and we're not going to let some money hungry guy ruin it for the rest of us by selling crap products.

I believe in the end we'll have two distinct markets. We'll have the Blu type cigs for those that want transparency and are willing to pay a higher price for convenience then we'll have the more advanced market where we are mostly at here with the people that aren't concerned about assembling their own toys and playing with gadgets.

This is all assuming that the FDA doesn't kick in and kill it all. I don't really see them killing anything but I do think the e-liquid market might be subject to change in the next few years. Right now I'm pulling for the companies experimenting with synthetic nicotine and also the companies trying to prove the benefits of nicotine as disease prevention. I think those are the best chances at keeping e-liquid not only available but also affordable. Unfortunately it might all come down to who has lobbyist with the deepest pockets. I'll side with BT over BP in that arena. Some people see BT as an undesired competition but I disagree. I believe the market for an APV will still be there after BT kicks in and the market we currently have will be around for a while.
 

Leatherneck

Super Member
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Jan 7, 2013
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I believe in the end we'll have two distinct markets. We'll have the Blu type cigs for those that want transparency and are willing to pay a higher price for convenience then we'll have the more advanced market where we are mostly at here with the people that aren't concerned about assembling their own toys and playing with gadgets.

And that is fine and good and right. Much like cars. You can just go get an off-the-shelf e-cig much like buying a stock car, or you can delve into eliquid and mods and RBAs and such if you feel like it.
 

Kemosabe

Vaping Master
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Sep 21, 2011
6,147
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If the big business takes over we can expect walmart to jump on the band wagon, those big business will farm out to china, and there goes the quality of juice.

Also from what I read IF they were to regulate the e-juice they will get rid of the candy, fruit,and pastry flavors so OMG the kids dont try them. Its such a hystiria, but they do nothing about getting rid of analogs. They just love all that tax money and greased pockets they get. The FDA lies, the government lies, they all lie to make it look bad.

i know right?
it cracks me up. whats the reasoning behind this? is it that once you reach a certain age, you no longer like the taste of desserts? i must have missed the study that determined everyone over the age of 18 no longer likes sweets. i never realized that every cookie and candy bar in the world was made for children.
 

PansSiren

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 19, 2012
175
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Denver
Eat where you want but I prefer eating from the restaurant with a five start rating from them. [...]
I will spend mine on BMW and Mercedes. I will drink my grey goose vodka instead of Smirnoff. I will buy e juice that is scientifically designed to be the best it can be. [...] I live in Loudon county, in Northern Virginia. Tons of trendy, yuppy, thirty something, college educated, government employees that smoke.

Trust me, I understand what you're saying, but please allow me to play devil's advocate. I'm assuming you came from a yuppy family and now you're the new generation. I'm guessing that you never worked the other side of the restaurant or any other service industry (hey, I could be wrong, but follow along). 5 star restaurants don't always have 5 star kitchens. 5 star kitchens don't always have chefs with 5 star morals and ethics. 5 star chefs don't always have 5 star line and prep cooks. Servers don't always care about your cleanliness. The dishwasher probably doesn't give a care ever. What you never saw never hurt you, but things aren't always the way they seem. Sure, not all restaurants are bad, but shady things go on at some point in virtually every establishment. That's sometimes part of the reason why a 5 star chef won't eat at another restaurant, even if it's also another 5 star.

And regulations? HA!! I won't deny the overall good they do for the industry, and it's very important they exist, but do you know how this stuff works?? It's not like they come in unannounced to check up on you. They give you notice... and plenty of it. There is plenty of time to clean the fridges and kitchens and get rid of all the nasty crap they've been stashing. And now let's throw in inspectors who don't care or accept bribes. Do you see how twisted it can get?

I now live in Colorado. There are 5 star seafood restaurants here. I REFUSE to eat an ocean fish in this state because I'm used to living on the ocean. People here spend CRAZY amounts of money on fish that they think is the best.... "it's flown in daily on ice"... and it's complete garbage. Most people here don't know any better, they never had a fresh caught fish... they don't know that there's a very noticeable difference with a fish that's been on ice for a few hours. But hey, it's 5 star and expensive - must be the best, right?

Ratings and reviews can be even more twisted. I look up reviews just as much as the next internet junkie, but we all know they're not always accurate. Bias, judgement, motives, social circles, clout, reputation, bribes, etc. all play a roll.

The point I'm getting at, is that things are not always what you expect. Regulations may be in place and inspections may be passed, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're followed or the reports are accurate.

To bring it full circle with my first post, now do you see why the sweet mexican lady on the corner may have the BEST tacos you ever had?

Once upon a time in this country we made moonshine in our back yards. Some was good and some killed you. The problem was unless you knew the moonshiner personally you were taking a gamble every time you bought some. It could be fire water from the gods or make you go blind, you just didn't know. Lots of people got hurt. [ENTER SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY] Now look at the liquor industry. It's thriving. Every bottle you pull off the shelf is the same and perfect. We know all the facts. No more hearsay or rumors about what works and what doesn't. How many of you want to go back to the moonshine days? How many of you boycott liquor because its taxed by the government?

Let's rephrase this as how YOU buy YOUR alcohol. Plenty of people still make their own spirits and brews. I know a lot of beer brewers in my circle of friends (something I also dabble with from time to time). I always love getting together to make beer. Some of those friends now have a restaurant/brewery... with that same beer we used to make in our kitchens. People got hurt when the makers cut corners, didn't keep sterile, and substituted crazy chemicals in their ingredients. Did regulations help with this? Absolutely. But regulation comes from the shared knowledge of competent others who wish to rid the non-do-gooders that give them a bad name.

Also, there's plenty nationally distributed alcohols that are NOT the same every time you get them. Things may differ from batch to batch. It's an art and a craft, and the artists try to incorporate science and technology to maintain consistency, but it's not usually relied on to craft their product.

Did you also know that you can pour my Smirnoff through a Britta filter about 10 times and end up with your Goose? I prefer top-shelf as well, but it seems like you don't know how they reach those differences in the bottles. It's not the science, technology, and regulation you're paying for, it's the extra time they took to run it through the still a second, third, or fourth time... something you could do at home if you really wanted to.

As for all of you who put words in my mouth with your anti-government agendas, shame one you. This thread had practically nothing to do with the government. I spoke of science and technology. I'll be back, time to get the kids out the door.

I'm just saying that you're perception on reality is very skewed and misunderstood. I probably won't be back, and it's time to get off your high-horse. Watch out for that jar of jelly you might get from a co-worker's wife next Christmas.

Buy e-liquid from a reputable vendor and I'm sure you won't die. Use common sense. ... or did they not teach you that?
 

BeardedVapr

Full Member
Verified Member
Dec 6, 2012
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Maryland
Actually if you really researched the matter like you say you did you would see there are some tests now coming out on vaping and heart disease, vaping and strokes etc.. As far as getting DR. Science and Big business involved goes, I got news for you just cause you are buying it from Walmart of some other big corporate ..... bagger dosent mean its any safer than the guy that is building his small mom and pop business the honest way with pure ingredients and care in his work. I have not seen a vendor I buy from with a hairy shirtless guy in the back mixing the juice in a tub, they usually have pretty sterile conditions including food grade stainless tables and other equipment.As far as the steeping process is concerned there is no way getting around it and keep a real quality tasting juice imo. Learn what steeping is cause DR.Science will be steeping or asking you to steep your juice if you dont like the taste of fresh made juice. I agree there needs to be monitoring for safety sake if you are selling juice to the public, but I am happy with the guy that knows what tastes good making my juice rather than DR.Science experimenting with how he can make my juice taste soso and save Big Business ..... bagger money. Mom and Pop shops are how this country was built and mom and pop is what keeps this country working, not outsourcing their juice making to china and importing the finished product. I think you really should go back and do a little more of that research and think about just how good you have it as a vaper right now cause as soon as the Big companies and DR.Science and the FDA get involved you wont be saving many vaping, it will end up costing you more than if you were smoking. Think about it.
 

gdaym8

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Nov 10, 2012
104
301
ATX
Right on and lets not forget how they inject cows to give more milk - comes out w/pus in it and has to be cleaned up first before selling to the public, also milk from injected cows turns sour more quickly. Who needs the FDA - they ok things w/backdoor money. They dont give a kitty about if something is harmful or not. All about the money and power to control

Oh I just hit the tip of the iceberg with my post, I could rant on this stuff for hours. I read far too much.
 

xanderxman

Ultra Member
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Verified Member
Aug 10, 2012
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Ptown, VA
Why is it that when it comes to this topic, everyone is an independent thinker all of a sudden......but last November...not so much?
*caveat* this is just a casual observance...not me being BRITISH. We do the same thing back home.

This is the root of the problem in our country. Everyone complains about the current party in power but when the time comes to clean house we vote on party lines. Issues like abortion, healthcare and the like divide our country and people seem to vote on one issue alone. If we could all take a step back and look at the bigger picture we would see how corrupt our system has become. We even have States that passed laws to issue a driver's license to ILLEGAL immigrants. Really!?!?! They are here ILLEGALLY. What part of that is hard to understand? We are too worried about hurting someone's feelings to be concerned with the effect these things are having.

As an American go to Spain (or any other country) ILLEGALLY and try to get a driver's license. Let me know how that works out for you.
 
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