American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[DC2]

Heck, maybe I should get a couple of vendors I do business with, write up some rules, make a website and a pretty seal and start charging only $1000 with the understanding that their company will be charged COST with receipts of the visits to inspect their facility. If I get 20 vendors on board I could end up making some pocket change and travelling around the country free! Sounds wonderful to me.

No disrespect intended, but...

Well, you COULD do that, but you probably wouldn't get the support that AEMSA will be getting initially.
Anybody who has been around awhile knows and respects the people who are behind their effort.

So I think they will probably have an easier time gaining support.


Of course, if you charge a lot less...

 

[thinkingaboutit]

No disrespect intended, but...

Well, you COULD do that, but you probably wouldn't get the support that AEMSA will be getting initially.
Anybody who has been around awhile knows and respects the people who are behind their effort.

So I think they will probably have an easier time gaining support.


Of course, if you charge a lot less...

But if she teams up with someone like me...then we can charge double!

 

[Justin66]

I was so scared to post anything negative being only another point or so away from a 7 day suspension but im glad to see some others voice some concerns.. i think this is a bad, horrible, bureaucratic, ridiculous thing to do to impose on this site and this community. Even though i appreciate the effort that has gone into this idea I find it far more dangerous to the "Legitimate" mom and pop businesses. The part of this organizatino that bothers me the most is the "Mentor Protege" portion of their site that basically says..

If your in with one of our "Good ole boys"
and they recomend you
and you pay us to come and show you "The business"
an then you do what WE tell you to..
Then we will offer you SUPPORT

I kinda just threw up in my mouth a bit at what this does to regular folks just trying to make a legitimate living..

Im not attacking the post or the OP of the thread.. and i had no intentions to cause trouble with this thread.

Im attacking the idea.

I may get removed from this forum for this post.. I am to the point i really am here for the classifieds anyway..but i think it needed said..

Hope to see you in the classies tomorrow my dear friends..

Jaime

I have to agree... though I could care less if I get banned from an internet forum- it definitely wouldn't be the first time and likely won't be the last. I don't have that "oh my gosh, I just got banned from <insert internet forum's name>! whatever shall I do?" mentality. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it. I've tried really, really hard to care about this- I'm surprised myself that I made through 23 pages of this drivel- but it ends up being much ado about nothing for me.

 

[DC2]

as was stated a few pages back.. If ever there was an organization that could just hand this industry to the FDA or roll into it with government funding (thats NOT profit) its this..

Are you familiar with TVECA?

 

[DC2]

Because I'm sure some of them weren't part of the "Good ole boy" network that kicked this in gear.. and they probably were offered it but saw how ridiculous it was just as I did after going through it..

Or because this effort is just barely getting off the ground and had to start somewhere.
It is fairly unlikely that Halo or Johnson Creek has even been approached yet.

But your accusations are much more fun and exciting.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I'm no WTA expert, but the fact remains that until someone releases some documentation that shows that GRaS manufacturing procedures are used we simply do not know. Just being silly here but for all we know they steep the tobacco in sewage then treat it with cyanide then run it through cheesecloth then leave it on the shelf to evaporate for a week.

DOW uses GRaS processes. It is a requirement to get the USP seal.


I think people are overreacting at this point and seeing monsters under the bed. I'm willing to see what happens as they further refine the criteria and work through the growing pains.

...guilty until proven innocent..?

 

[meli.]

@ lalasalama8
I appreciate what you are saying, but this isn't just a matter of Math it's a matter of Business. And I mean Professional juice Vendors.
In my experience, the consumer will choose an Accredited vendor over one that is not. I do not mean consumers that frequent ECF and other forums.
Vendors will ultimately pass the cost on to their Customer.

Frankly speaking, if I have to pay a little extra for juice made under conditions which are Inspected and Certified, I'd be more than happy to pay Extra.
It's like choosing to eat at a Greasy Spoon or going to Le Gavroche, staying at the Holiday Inn or The Four Seasons..

 

[oldsoldier]

...guilty until proven innocent..?

No -- unproven until proven. There is a difference

 

[thinkingaboutit]

No -- unproven until proven. There is a difference

Science

 

[lalasalama8]

@ lalasalama8
I appreciate what you are saying, but this isn't just a matter of Math it's a matter of Business. And I mean Professional Juice Vendors.
In my experience, the consumer will choose an Accredited vendor over one that is not. I do not mean consumers that frequent ECF and other forums.
Vendors will ultimately pass the cost on to their Customer.

Frankly speaking, if I have to pay a little extra for juice made under conditions which are Inspected and Certified, I'd be more than happy to pay Extra.
It's like choosing to eat at a Greasy Spoon or going to Le Gavroche, staying at the Holiday Inn or The Four Seasons..

Hi meli..yes, in many ways I agree with you. I'm just wary of excluding innovative small vendors because of cost...just think of the hundreds and hundreds of extraordinary creations that have come from tiny, creative vendors. I worry, as do many here, that if left to big operations, we would end up with the old "buy what we make and you'd better like it" or DYI..not a good scenario.

I happen to like greasy spoons..at least some of them, lol

 

[Cool_Breeze]

The heavy-handed approach proposed by AEMSA plays into the hands of draconian regulation.

* It seems a major emphasis of AEMSA is on the manufacturing facilities and equipment
* It is obviously costly
* Governmental entities are not likely to accept standards more relaxed than those proposed by proported industry representatives
* Funding is (largely) in the hands of member manufacturers
* Questionable assurance by attempting to define the accepted process
* Offered as a starting point and as usually is the case, will become ever more restrictive

While I'm no expert in chemicals and manufacturing processes, another approach might be interesting. For the most part, we are dealing with knowns. As well, people routinely mix in much the same manner in their homes as do manufacturers. While there have been a few "Ooops" in the market, it seems there is little major consumer upset or complaint with eJuice products in general.

Product Based Testing/Monitoring coupled with a Clearing House for Consumer-Based Complaints

* Establish PRODUCT standards rather than PROCESS standards...the latter is much more expensive.
* Products (ejuice) anonymously purchased and tested
* Emphasis on the product and freedom to create as best fits the producers
* Acceptance of and investigation of consumer complaints
* Publishing of findings regarding products demonstrated to be outside of acceptable standards
* Notifications (warnings?) of substandard products found in the consumer environment
* Possible funding by consumers via checkbox selection to donate vendor offered disounts to a monitoring organization
* Consumer input in all phases of operation(?)

A testing and information service will be less expensive, less authoritarian and more responsible to consumers than to producers, while allowing producers to participate regardless of their scale of operation.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

No -- unproven until proven. There is a difference

In our court system, the burdon of proof is the responsibility of the accuser.

 

[DC2]

A testing and information service will be less expensive, less authoritarian and more responsible to consumers than to producers, while allowing producers to participate regardless of their scale of operation.

Would this give the FDA a proper framework to help keep them off our backs?

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Would this give the FDA a proper framework to help keep them off our backs?

That reamins to be seen.

 

[Ivisi]

In our court system, the burdon of proof is the responsibility of the accuser.

So since the AEMSA is not our court system, they should be able to take "because I said so" when asking WTA extractors the question "How do we know the extraction process is safe" as a valid answer and allow WTA, then. Gotcha.

 

[hittman]

I tried hard to read all the way thru this thread and made it to page 25 before I finally gave up and jumped to the end.

Someone had a good question. What chemicals are used to extract nicotine from tobacco? I don't know but would love to hear the answer. I don't know what the chemicals used to extract wta are but do know from conversations with Dvap that they must be handled with care. This being said, I have used wta since before it was available to the public. I haven't grown a third ear or anything yet. I have to wonder if many vendors don't know what is used to extract their nicotine since most probably buy it in concentrated form to mix down to the desired level.

One other thing, this is for Jerry at Aroma. Would it be possible to divulge the names of the chemicals used without giving up trade secrets. I'm just curious. If not then perhaps there is a test that could be done on a sample to verify it's safety if you wanted to.After seeing the price of membership dues, I'm not sure that I would want to join.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

AEMSA has defined itself so as to exclude products for which properties may be unknown.

I've not asked them to do that and have suggested an alternative to that type of organization that may be able to address such 'burdon of proof issues.'

Innovation often depends on being given the benefit of the doubt.

Leave the Process to the Producers and Monitor the Product.

 

[jcwest]

Science

And since there is no science and they dont want to reveal their proprietary process for extracting WTA for this organization (founded by competition) its not allowed under the "Just in case" scenario ...

PseudoScience

 

[weisner]

I have to say I agree with Cool_Breeze on most of this. It is pretty simple and straight forward, no matter how well intended regulation will squeeze little start ups out and eventually harm the people that it is intended to help. As far as the FDA or any government agency goes it is all pay to play. I trust none of them. Eventually some agency is going to make a grab for power and control.

I am all for a more voluntary "Product Based Testing/Monitoring coupled with a Clearing House for Consumer-Based Complaints" like Cool_Breeze makes a point of.

As a consumer I want to know what I am getting, and a perspective vendor I want to know that government agencies and "home owners associations are kept at a distance". All this because I know that even well intended regulation and control soon become burdensome and eventually painfully end up not benefiting those that should be benefited.

 

[Oliver]

Just to say - no-one is getting banned for disagreeing with the AEMSA concept!! By all means, argue your hearts out against it.

I'm not naive enough to think that everyone was going to think this was the greatest thing ever. But, for all the detractors, let me ask you a few questions:

1. Do you think the industry is going to be left alone to continue as is by government?
2. If not, who do you think should regulate it?
3. If not the government, then who? And how would it be different from what AEMSA are proposing?

Of course, if you answer 'yes' to the first question, then I can see why you might object to AEMSA. But I don't think there's a hope in hell that this is the case.

Look, AEMSA have come along and have a great proposition - no-one else has done this, and frankly it's pretty amazing that they haven't. If someone else has the time, motivation and knowledge to do this (and thinks they can do it better), please go ahead. If I like the look of it, I'll give it publicity.

For those worrying about the smaller businesses, let me just say - if this industry's regulations are drawn up by government, these business are gone. $500 per month and employing some pretty reasonable standards of production to have a stab at staying in this industry actually sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

I'm really, really sympathetic to the WTA crowd. I haven't tried any myself (I must do so soon!), and I appreciate that for some people WTA
is the key to vaping. But I can also see how WTA poses unique regulatory problems. Seriously tricky one, this - and I think it's one that's going to require some serious thought going forward.