American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[pman5kmo]

Admission into any trade org needs to be independent and unbiased... that is to say anyone who mfgs juice should be able to submit required materials (copy of bus. License, product samples, URL/information, photos/videos of perp/mfg areas) to be reviewed. Product sample testing should be done by a third party to ensure quality/safety and testing cost should be borne by applicant. Photos should remain closed (unless mfg wishes to display it themselves) due to concern of proprietary formulations, techniques, etc. While independent teadeborgs can help in many ways, some can hurt an industry. But ANY mfgr/vendor should be able to enter into the trade org, alone, without needing vouched for. If their info is verifiable and they meet requirements, and pass regular unplanned inspections of product (it would be a tax write-off... or from the ecig users who wished to donate sealed samples, yet another thing that should be required, to ensure safety). Entrance fee should be minimal. If the tests cost $50 each and three samples for each test 5 nic levels offered then they should supply/pay for that... but as a startup trade org it needs to be independent as can be to include large/enormous entrance fees. Entrance fees should be able to be verified by anyone... as to what company xxxxxx's $200 fee went to. You should then request donations freely withoutaking it a requirement, from mfgrs and vendors for further/continuing ops. After the first year a 'board 'should be established, consisting of members.there also needs to be a process established for evolution.



Further as a cover your @$$ you need to have notice that while a member mfg meets criteria that the 'seal' does not bear any guarantee, endorsement, etc.

You also should require vendors to have certain minimal labeling specs... such as mfg date, lot Nos, nicotine content, base composition, and presence of artificial colors.

Not all mfgrs market direct to consumers, but most do. Some mfgrs make products for some vendors who will attach their own label (I know of a smoke shop who does this) as per the mfgrs licensing agreement.in such a case the reseller would be at a severe disadvantage, either give up mfgrs info, or they should be granted a vendor certification based on mfgrs cert. and thus be able to be competitive on then open market. This is my biggest concern frankly as if one vendor who outsources their mfg to even a friends business, the vendor would essentially have to stop reselling in current format and either just have it labeled as from mfgr, which would cause a drop in sales for vendor, and interfere with a licensing agreement. For this reason I think there should be both mfg and vendor certs... which includes my last concern....

Storage.... this is another field I have yet to see covered. If a mfg is up and up on all listed criterion then they go and store bases next to a heater, or some other problematic method of storage that it needs be par of criteria... as does worker safety...

 

[ByeByeCoffinNails]

The great charm, of the vaping community is that it is more like a big family.

So when a few family members act in *their* interests and seek to exclude other family members, people get cranky. If it stays as a *few*, it is almost bearable. The real threat comes when multiple, small interest groups are formed and start to squabble over territory. I can see a 'WTA Trade Association', a 'Natural Juice Trade Association' and more popping up.

How do you co-ordinate these multiple organisations if (say) you have to go into talks with the FDA (if they are willing to talk to anyone)?

Yes, another organisation to bind them all together. Nice.

And with every tier of desk jockeys, the price of consumables rises to offset overheads. We end up subsidising vendors, not for what they sell (plus profit), but for the fees they have to pay, standards they have to meet, meetings they need to attend. Plus profit.

The only thing worse than one bureaucrat is lots of bureaucrats and none of which have the people they serve in mind. Does this tiered system of paper pushers with no idea of what is outside their intray seem familiar at all?

Do we have to stoop to the FDA's level in order to (maybe) talk to them or are we better than that?

 

[AlmightyGod]

"If you don't like the way it's being done, then do it yourself?"

Maybe they should have done it right the first time, so there wouldn't be issues.

How is having multiple trade organizations, with different standards, going to help matters? Wouldn't that cloud the issue even further?

This.

In all the pages in this and other threads, not one single person has offered any thought that refutes this sentiment - because there is no logical way to refute it.

If anyone disagrees with the scope of AEMSA...their plans...their objectives...their fees - you can do what they did: start an organization. Make it with better objectives, better plans, different fees. Convince others that your stamp of approval is more worthy than theirs. Vapers, Vendors and Manufacturers will make their decisions based on who is better at persuading them.

You want something better? Do it yourself. Nobody will try to stop you.

That's right. You. Go ahead. Do it.

Unless of course you just want to complain and protest a 100% voluntary organization without taking any real action.

In that case....carry on.

 

[keyzygirl]

Im not against this at all and I think the start your own attitude is childish. We dont need 20 groups to do this,we need one that is done properly,run as a NP and kept in check by respected people who care about this community. I keep hearing that they dont care about us,they only care about the paying members and thats all it will effect and I get that but the actions they take could effect the group as a whole and that needs to be understood and dealt with somehow. Lets not be gullible here. They may be just protecting their asses but it will effect the US juice industry in the future and that effects all of us.

 

[SuperLuckyLady]

vapedudes sells a caffeinated eliquid- fail.
vendors that sell eliquid with a nic level of 36mg/ml- fail.
vendors that sell eliquid that contains wta- fail.
vendors that add food coloring that will end up in your lungs- pass.
vendors whose eliquid mixing employees cover their open wounds rather than stay home- pass.

Perhaps

......Maybe they should have done it right the first time, so there wouldn't be issues....

Ah, but that would have taken Almighty God himself

Let's not forget, as the founders have said repeatedly, that these standards etc. are merely starting points. This is an evolving organization, and the standards etc, will be changing over time, as more parties chime in and new discoveries are made.

 

[CanuckVapour16]

If this leads to the legitimization of vaping and consistency of product then I'm all for it.

 

[Antwoord]

No matter how one feels about the FDA, the notion that businesses dealing with a highly toxic substance such as nicotine, combined with other potentially harmful compounds that are being inhaled by people, can go unregulated is a pipe dream. People keep calling the founders of AEMSA good ole boys and this and that. The good ole boys are the people thinking that they should go hold out in a basement somewhere with as much supplies as they can stockpile, and then form a militia through short wave radio communications or something. Who will defend the tobacco farm? Somebody's gotta get out there in the leaves and take down these bureaucrats. The need to resort to black market tactics hasn't arrived just yet. At least, that shouldn't be everyone's first thought. I mean really, people are selling e liquid and pvs with websites, and storefronts at this time. All that AEMSA is asking is that the majority of vendors come together and try to agree on some guidelines to make sure that Jim Bob isn't going to accidentally put a little KY into your juice. Or maybe Jim Bob thinks that KY will cure a dry sinus.

I will say this though, the guys at AEMSA might need more professional looking attire and settings for their photos. Otherwise, from what I've heard on Vape TV, and read on their website, they are reasonable people undertaking a massive task.

The only significant ways that their current standards would effect people is in the cost of juice, and the use of WTA. I assume someone with a chemistry background has cleared certain food colorings, and if you think you haven't been vaping colorings in commercial juice you're probably wrong. I've DIYed a ton of fruit flavors and never had a single one turn out blue, hot pink, or neon yellow. Linc Williams said that the membership dues are flexible, and that the accounting would be transparent as they are in the process of becoming a non profit. Once they get more members I'm sure that the membership fees can come down in price.

The WTA issue needs looking into. The membership dues are somewhat steep, but again AEMSA has stated that their standards and fees are a starting point.

 

[keyzygirl]

This is something people should listen to. It has some very interesting info.

Podcast: Bill Godshall on FDA, regulation and the future of e-cigarettes | Ecig Advanced News

 

[Dimitris]

Replay of last night's show "AEMSA Speaks Out" is up. Thank you to Russ of ClickBang Radio for co hosting with me and all the guests, attendees and people that called in.

 

[keyzygirl]

I just popped in to post this.Thank you Dimitris!!

 

[Oliver]

Sorry Dimitris - I didn't actually edit your post, just went in so I could grab the source for the video to post on the front page. Shouldn't have pressed 'save'!

 

[Dimitris]

Sorry Dimitris - I didn't actually edit your post, just went in so I could grab the source for the video to post on the front page. Shouldn't have pressed 'save'!

No worries Smokey!

 

[6pointprime]

Im not against this at all and I think the start your own attitude is childish. We dont need 20 groups to do this,we need one that is done properly,run as a NP and kept in check by respected people who care about this community. I keep hearing that they dont care about us,they only care about the paying members and thats all it will effect and I get that but the actions they take could effect the group as a whole and that needs to be understood and dealt with somehow. Lets not be gullible here. They may be just protecting their asses but it will effect the US juice industry in the future and that effects all of us.

This post by keyzgirl is very useful as a reference, as it highlights many of the lapses in logic that I have seen from many other places.

I think the start your own attitude is childish.

Without this attitude, there would be no advocacy groups who started up because they thought they could do better, no eliquid manufacturers who thought they could make a better tasting juice, no 510 connection, no Vapenet...you get the idea.

The start your own attitude...that's America baby.

We dont need 20 groups to do this,we need one

We don't need 20 forums, we need one.

We don't need 20 blogs, we need one.

We don't need 20 vaping networks, we need one.

We don't need 20 eliquid flavors, we need one (plus menthol )

We don't need 20 groups advocating for ecig freedoms, we need one.

The toxicity of this type of thinking is practically self-evident.

I keep hearing that they dont care about us

Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.

the actions they take could effect the group as a whole and that needs to be understood and dealt with somehow

And......we're back to where we started. There is no better way to take action than taking action. A private, voluntary organization can do as they like so long as it is indeed voluntary. If anyone wants to do better, they should. There is nothing at all childish about wanting to do better. Ambition is the fountainhead of all human progress.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Certifying ELiquid manufacturers accordingly to certain standards is only the first part of the equation/ puzzle so I really don't see anything of consequence happening for a very long time. There are other areas within the PV environment over which AEMSA has little or no control and that's where/ when the problems will arise. All in all I am and have been with many Orgs and I would caution PR and how the members of AEMSA are perceived by the vaping community and, more importantly, the outside public world is of great importance.

 

[Sacker]

One seal of approval to rule them all... I like the idea as a consumer, but as a vaper, this to me is a can of worms.

There's so many conflicts of interest with this non-profit group, and most posters have all ready commented on it.

Since we are talking about safety for the consumers:

How many ejuice vendors are FDA registered?

How many of their Board Members and thier Members (Vendors) are FDA registered?

Would having a seal on a vendor's website change my opinion of their procedures as a consumer, probulary not.

If Aemas had created a lab to test e-juice for the consumers it would have made more sense to me.

 

[Scott_Simpson]

To use a booze anology, would you rather drink your tot from the Jack Daniel's distillery or a moonshiner's still? M'self, I prefer Jack. (Some folks like their 'shine; no revenooers need apply.)

 

[FAAmecanic]

In general, I like this idea IF it is voluntary and not used as a tool to force juice makers into joining an organization. The current guidelines as stated seem quite simple and common-sense, but once juice makers commit to the AEMSTA standards and whoever it is that sets those standards decides to add some more (e.g., no naming of juices with "cute" names that may entice young non-smokers to take up vaping), then the makers are forced to either go along or suffer the possible negatives of either flouting the association's rules or withdrawing their membership (with subsequent loss of AEMSTA endorsement).

Bureaucracies always start small and with ostensibly good public interest intentions ... they rarely end up that way, especially when the politically correct get in control.

Couldnt agree more. But on the other hand I give kudos for the idea and those putting the effort forth for this.

I too would like to know:

1) Why no WTA??? some reasons/studies/data would be nice here

2) What are the conditions for applying?

3) What standards/checks are in place to ensure continuing compliance and quality?

 

[keyzygirl]

This post by keyzgirl is very useful as a reference, as it highlights many of the lapses in logic that I have seen from many other places.



Without this attitude, there would be no advocacy groups who started up because they thought they could do better, no eliquid manufacturers who thought they could make a better tasting juice, no 510 connection, no Vapenet...you get the idea.

The start your own attitude...that's America baby.



We don't need 20 forums, we need one.

We don't need 20 blogs, we need one.

We don't need 20 vaping networks, we need one.

We don't need 20 eliquid flavors, we need one (plus menthol )

We don't need 20 groups advocating for ecig freedoms, we need one.

The toxicity of this type of thinking is practically self-evident.



Believe none of what you hear and half of what you see.



And......we're back to where we started. There is no better way to take action than taking action. A private, voluntary organization can do as they like so long as it is indeed voluntary. If anyone wants to do better, they should. There is nothing at all childish about wanting to do better. Ambition is the fountainhead of all human progress.

Point taken and Thank you for the honesty.

 

[FAAmecanic]

One seal of approval to rule them all... I like the idea as a consumer, but as a vaper, this to me is a can of worms.

There's so many conflicts of interest with this non-profit group, and most posters have all ready commented on it.

Since we are talking about safety for the consumers:

How many ejuice vendors are FDA registered?

How many of their Board Members and thier Members (Vendors) are FDA registered?

Would having a seal on a vendor's website change my opinion of their procedures as a consumer, probulary not.

If Aemas had created a lab to test e-juice for the consumers it would have made more sense to me.

Agreed..... and NICE Brew Rig there Sacker!

 

[cavibird2005]

Feels "Big Brother" to me. I think we all know who makes quality ejuice, and who's sub par. Don't think we need a Association. Whats next you going to be raiding my home looking for sub par eliquids??