American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[kristin]

I was simply stating that they will eventually be in contact with the FDA and even though they only represent the paying company members,they will be representing us all in some way. We would like to be sure that we are represented properly by people who know what they are doing.

"If you don't like the way it's being done, then do it yourself?"

Maybe they should have done it right the first time, so there wouldn't be issues.

How is having multiple trade organizations, with different standards, going to help matters? Wouldn't that cloud the issue even further?

There already are THREE e-cigarette organizations. ALL of them intend to "work with" the FDA in one way or another. ALL organizations that are formed will work for the best interests of their own members. The ONLY organization that will actually last and gain any power or influence with the government is the one that gains the trust and support of the majority of the industry and community or the one with the most money. So far, only ONE of the existing organizations has cared enough to directly approach the community with a DRAFT of what they propose for standards and has asked for community input and support. Eventually, whether the community likes it or not, one organization will get the ear of the FDA and legislators. To pretend that lack of community support for all of these organizations is going to stop someone from eventually having the ear of the FDA is naive and foolhardy. We have to make a choice whether to support and work with a volunteer organization that is a part of and willing to listen to the vaping community or sit by and let a group of wealthy, pre-filled carto dealers (who could care less about what vapers need and want and would be perfectly happy to see flavors, refills, mods, high nicotine and WTAs banned completely) take the power. Because that is what will happen if the community doesn't rally behind someone who cares about what WE care about and is willing to listen.

Let's be realistic. There will NEVER be an organization that can make 100% of vapers happy. There are ALWAYS going to be "issues" and doing it "right the first time" is virtually impossible and an unfair expectation to make of a bunch of volunteers. The best any organization can do is offer a staring point and then work with the community to try to make the majority happy. Since 99.9% of vapers are either unwilling or unable to start and run an organization such as this, that means vapers will have to choose from the organizations that DO try to get started. Since we have to assume no organization will EVER be perfect out of the gate, we MUST have the expectation that we, as a community, will have to provide input and get involved if we want an organization to acknowledge our needs and wants. So as these organizations pop up, rather than getting upset and complaining, responsible and reasonable vapers should calmly evaluate each organization's strengths and weakness and attempt to WORK with them. Obviously, if the organization doesn't even ask for our input, that is not going to be one the vaping community will get behind. (Then we can only hope they don't have a lot of money.)

There WILL be an organization representing the industry to the FDA. This is something we have no control over and it is inevitable. Fighting against ALL attempts to organize is a waste of time and just shooting ourselves in the foot. Anarchy will NOT prevail here, folks. So we need to stop crucifying anyone who even makes an attempt to organize and instead work with them to make sure they are doing and saying what the majority WANTS them to be doing and saying.

I'm not saying I think AEMSA is the answer. They still have a lot to prove. But please let's at least give these groups (that are at the very least, trying) a CHANCE, because no one else is even TRYING and we are only hurting ourselves in the long run if we just attack all of them and scare them off. We owe it to ourselves and the future community to at least TRY to work with the people who are making the greatest effort before writing them off.

Consider this: If AEMSA or another community-centric group doesn't get our support and succeed that leaves just the TVECA, which doesn't care if it has community input or support, a minority has totalitarian control of its board and has implied that it's just fine with the FDA banning everything but pre-filled, tobacco/menthol-flavored minis. They have already been representing themselves to the media and legislators as the voice of the industry and I'm sure they are thrilled to see the vaping community rip apart any and all of their competition.

More reading:
V2 CIGS Addresses Misleading Claims Made by the TVECA and Promotes Industry-Wide Cohesion and FDA Compliance - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports
TOP 9 LIES TOLD BY US E-CIGARETTE COMPANIES — TobaccoToday

 

[Matthew1980]

Feels "Big Brother" to me. I think we all know who makes quality ejuice, and who's sub par. Don't think we need a Association. Whats next you going to be raiding my home looking for sub par eliquids??

Subpar liquids that may contain anything is not safe to inhale. The way its stands now, is we have no regulation, on quality control measures- that are standards for us. The Health issue surrounds what is in E-Liquids; and to say we know who makes quality juice is not enough.- That is not science based, and has no creditability with vapers, or health organizations that we are trying so hard to be on board with us. This idea of big brother does not fly with me at all.

I want to be sure, that what I am inhaling contains; safe products and that is it pure- and things that are may not be safe to inhale are NOT in there.- We need science on our side, and that cannot happen unless we are all following standard protocol. The entire point of vaping is for a safer alternative. The Tobacco industry has very very strict product guidelines, for quality assurance, we need to get there, and this is the only way. To say to the public - to the millions of users, - just trust me, is not enough. It will never ever get the FDA or Health and Welfare Canada to agree to what we do.

Bottom Line: we as vapers need to assured that vendors are safe, and using additives that are safe and pure.- Regulation is coming, and we want to be shape that, and have a voice. Telling the public- just trust us, is not going to be creditable.

 

[Ctor]

We don't need 20 forums, we need one.

We don't need 20 blogs, we need one.

We don't need 20 vaping networks, we need one.

We don't need 20 eliquid flavors, we need one (plus menthol )

We don't need 20 groups advocating for ecig freedoms, we need one.

The toxicity of this type of thinking is practically self-evident.

We don't need one FDA, we need 20.

We don't need one Federal Government, we need 20.

We don't need one Obama, we need 20.

The toxicity of black or white thinking is self evident.

What we need is situationally dependant.

 

[6pointprime]

We don't need one FDA, we need 20.

We don't need one Federal Government, we need 20.

We don't need one Obama, we need 20.

The toxicity of black or white thinking is self evident.

What we need is situationally dependant.

All of your examples are people who use guns to get their way. All of mine are examples of people voluntarily cooperating.

Big difference. Not really a useful comparison.

 

[Caridwen]

There already are THREE e-cigarette organizations. ALL of them intend to "work with" the FDA in one way or another. ALL organizations that are formed will work for the best interests of their own members. The ONLY organization that will actually last and gain any power or influence with the government is the one that gains the trust and support of the majority of the industry and community or the one with the most money. So far, only ONE of the existing organizations has cared enough to directly approach the community with a DRAFT of what they propose for standards and has asked for community input and support. Eventually, whether the community likes it or not, one organization will get the ear of the FDA and legislators. To pretend that lack of community support for all of these organizations is going to stop someone from eventually having the ear of the FDA is naive and foolhardy. We have to make a choice whether to support and work with a volunteer organization that is a part of and willing to listen to the vaping community or sit by and let a group of wealthy, pre-filled carto dealers (who could care less about what vapers need and want and would be perfectly happy to see flavors, refills, mods, high nicotine and WTAs banned completely) take the power. Because that is what will happen if the community doesn't rally behind someone who cares about what WE care about and is willing to listen.

Let's be realistic. There will NEVER be an organization that can make 100% of vapers happy. There are ALWAYS going to be "issues" and doing it "right the first time" is virtually impossible and an unfair expectation to make of a bunch of volunteers. The best any organization can do is offer a staring point and then work with the community to try to make the majority happy. Since 99.9% of vapers are either unwilling or unable to start and run an organization such as this, that means vapers will have to choose from the organizations that DO try to get started. Since we have to assume no organization will EVER be perfect out of the gate, we MUST have the expectation that we, as a community, will have to provide input and get involved if we want an organization to acknowledge our needs and wants. So as these organizations pop up, rather than getting upset and complaining, responsible and reasonable vapers should calmly evaluate each organization's strengths and weakness and attempt to WORK with them. Obviously, if the organization doesn't even ask for our input, that is not going to be one the vaping community will get behind. (Then we can only hope they don't have a lot of money.)

There WILL be an organization representing the industry to the FDA. This is something we have no control over and it is inevitable. Fighting against ALL attempts to organize is a waste of time and just shooting ourselves in the foot. Anarchy will NOT prevail here, folks. So we need to stop crucifying anyone who even makes an attempt to organize and instead work with them to make sure they are doing and saying what the majority WANTS them to be doing and saying.

I'm not saying I think AEMSA is the answer. They still have a lot to prove. But please let's at least give these groups (that are at the very least, trying) a CHANCE, because no one else is even TRYING and we are only hurting ourselves in the long run if we just attack all of them and scare them off. We owe it to ourselves and the future community to at least TRY to work with the people who are making the greatest effort before writing them off.

Consider this: If AEMSA or another community-centric group doesn't get our support and succeed that leaves just the TVECA, which doesn't care if it has community input or support, a minority has totalitarian control of its board and has implied that it's just fine with the FDA banning everything but pre-filled, tobacco/menthol-flavored minis. They have already been representing themselves to the media and legislators as the voice of the industry and I'm sure they are thrilled to see the vaping community rip apart any and all of their competition.

More reading:
V2 CIGS Addresses Misleading Claims Made by the TVECA and Promotes Industry-Wide Cohesion and FDA Compliance - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports
TOP 9 LIES TOLD BY US E-CIGARETTE COMPANIES — TobaccoToday

This should be required reading. If we don't do something, the only thing that will be available are the prefilled cartos per V2 and Blu.

 

[jimrug1]

Feels "Big Brother" to me. I think we all know who makes quality ejuice, and who's sub par. Don't think we need a Association. Whats next you going to be raiding my home looking for sub par eliquids??

You need to read Kristins post above yours. It may inspire you to rethink this uninformed and short sighted statement.

 

[keyzygirl]

Kristin as usual is the voice of reason. We need a group to represent us.

 

[Quick1]

I think we all know who makes quality ejuice, and who's sub par.

I missed the meeting. Can you share the list and why they fell on one side or the other?

 

[buffaloguy]

Frankly, I came to the thread interested and after seeing the various thoughts on this subject I hardly think ANY of it matters.... Here's why:

A company in the USA is manufacturing and RIGHT NOW selling an ecigarette that is designed to do something that will have all ecigs in the united states banned forever. I wont state it in the open forums but I got an email from a chinese reseller/manufacturer today that is representing this product.

If one of the moderators could pm me Ill point them in the right direction. I have no idea what to do with this info, and when I saw it I got ...... that a US based ecig company could be sooooo stupid. They are going to end ecigs for all of us if this gets out as common knowledge.

 

[BuzzKill]

I was simply stating that they will eventually be in contact with the FDA and even though they only represent the paying company members,they will be representing us all in some way. We would like to be sure that we are represented properly by people who know what they are doing.

I could not agree more Keyz

 

[Ceegary]

This is something people should listen to. It has some very interesting info.

Podcast: Bill Godshall on FDA, regulation and the future of e-cigarettes | Ecig Advanced News

This is a must listen-to interview for anyone who vapes. Bill Godshall is a HUGE defender of our rights and one of the most knowledegable people on the entire situation re FDA, legislation, etc.

 

[kwalka]

I was pretty sure after having very limited exposure to Kurt's expertise, that he knew what he was talking about and was indeed an expert. So after he listed off his credentials on Vapeteam last night, I am very comfortable with he and the rest of the group speaking indirectly for us. At the very least, as Kristin pointed out, they have the same goals in mind as we do, or should.

 

[ByeByeCoffinNails]

Here's a strange idea. Is there any reason at all for there to be an organisation that represents vapers and the vendors?

What is needed is unity and not division because by drawing a line dividing 'trade' from 'consumers' is a model that though popular, takes power away from the consumers and places it in the hands of a few.

Take wine awards for example, why is it that the gold labels seem to rotate between a small number of wineries? Look how twisted the Grammy and Academy Awards are. Just mates giving mates trophies. It's the same with any small group that seeks to reward excellence.

There has been an outbreak of Governement or privately run consumer protection groups despite 'self regulation'. Why would that be I wonder? The system of 'trade' groups does not protect consumers or raise standards.

Vaping unites us, but politics is threatening to tear us apart. We did not choose this alternative because someone in a white coat said "This is good for you"- in fact, that was off-putting. We chose this alternative in spite of the 'experts'. The fact that now some experts are backing us, is validation- but that does not mean that we are going to be happy about trotting along behind cheering the new regime.

Yes, it is nice to have standards to protect our health. But standards need to be viewed as independent and not rooted in the industry itself. If my Chardonnay gets a gold medal every few years like clockwork, does that mean the wine is good? I can tell you from experience, it doesn't. If a used car dealer gets an award from other used car dealers- does that make him/her better and better at what exactly?

Such back-slapping self congratulations carries no weight. It used to, but does not anymore. Consumers are smarter than they used to be but 'wallet voting' should not be the only force at the consumer's disposal.

Real Estate Agents and many other 'professions' in New Zealand were put under self regulation 30 years ago resulting in a slew of Court cases for bad practice. In response, a corresponding consumer protection group has been set up for each 'profession'. Self regulation does not work.

Vapers and vendors need a seat at the same table and be valued with equal weight. A trade organisation is the last thing needed to set and enforce standards.

 

[Projectguy]

This is something people should listen to. It has some very interesting info.

Podcast: Bill Godshall on FDA, regulation and the future of e-cigarettes | Ecig Advanced News

Keyzgirl I followed your advice and listened to the podcast: I was informed, educated and depressed. For one, while I am a Canadian we have learned to live with the reality that when you guys sneeze we catch a cold, so we pay attention and get out our umbrellas. The extension to that unfortunate reality is while you have the opportunity to "fight city hall" our government will react in lock step with what ever comes out of the FDA. SO our only avenue of hope is to be so out in front of an issue that it is "dead on arrival", case in point gay marriage.

The other reason I'm depressed I never thought I'd be cheering for Mitt.

 

[sonicdsl]

There already are THREE e-cigarette organizations. ALL of them intend to "work with" the FDA in one way or another. ALL organizations that are formed will work for the best interests of their own members. The ONLY organization that will actually last and gain any power or influence with the government is the one that gains the trust and support of the majority of the industry and community or the one with the most money. So far, only ONE of the existing organizations has cared enough to directly approach the community with a DRAFT of what they propose for standards and has asked for community input and support. Eventually, whether the community likes it or not, one organization will get the ear of the FDA and legislators. To pretend that lack of community support for all of these organizations is going to stop someone from eventually having the ear of the FDA is naive and foolhardy. We have to make a choice whether to support and work with a volunteer organization that is a part of and willing to listen to the vaping community or sit by and let a group of wealthy, pre-filled carto dealers (who could care less about what vapers need and want and would be perfectly happy to see flavors, refills, mods, high nicotine and WTAs banned completely) take the power. Because that is what will happen if the community doesn't rally behind someone who cares about what WE care about and is willing to listen.

Let's be realistic. There will NEVER be an organization that can make 100% of vapers happy. There are ALWAYS going to be "issues" and doing it "right the first time" is virtually impossible and an unfair expectation to make of a bunch of volunteers. The best any organization can do is offer a staring point and then work with the community to try to make the majority happy. Since 99.9% of vapers are either unwilling or unable to start and run an organization such as this, that means vapers will have to choose from the organizations that DO try to get started. Since we have to assume no organization will EVER be perfect out of the gate, we MUST have the expectation that we, as a community, will have to provide input and get involved if we want an organization to acknowledge our needs and wants. So as these organizations pop up, rather than getting upset and complaining, responsible and reasonable vapers should calmly evaluate each organization's strengths and weakness and attempt to WORK with them. Obviously, if the organization doesn't even ask for our input, that is not going to be one the vaping community will get behind. (Then we can only hope they don't have a lot of money.)

There WILL be an organization representing the industry to the FDA. This is something we have no control over and it is inevitable. Fighting against ALL attempts to organize is a waste of time and just shooting ourselves in the foot. Anarchy will NOT prevail here, folks. So we need to stop crucifying anyone who even makes an attempt to organize and instead work with them to make sure they are doing and saying what the majority WANTS them to be doing and saying.

I'm not saying I think AEMSA is the answer. They still have a lot to prove. But please let's at least give these groups (that are at the very least, trying) a CHANCE, because no one else is even TRYING and we are only hurting ourselves in the long run if we just attack all of them and scare them off. We owe it to ourselves and the future community to at least TRY to work with the people who are making the greatest effort before writing them off.

Consider this: If AEMSA or another community-centric group doesn't get our support and succeed that leaves just the TVECA, which doesn't care if it has community input or support, a minority has totalitarian control of its board and has implied that it's just fine with the FDA banning everything but pre-filled, tobacco/menthol-flavored minis. They have already been representing themselves to the media and legislators as the voice of the industry and I'm sure they are thrilled to see the vaping community rip apart any and all of their competition.

More reading:
V2 CIGS Addresses Misleading Claims Made by the TVECA and Promotes Industry-Wide Cohesion and FDA Compliance - FOX 8 WVUE New Orleans News, Weather, Sports
TOP 9 LIES TOLD BY US E-CIGARETTE COMPANIES — TobaccoToday

Kristin: Excellent post, as usual. But very valid points! Everyone please read this, because, as she stated, it's not so much important that you stand behind AEMSA, but stand behind someone. Personally, I was horrified when I read TVECA's site, and some of their press releases. THAT'S the group I really don't want representing me as a vapor. If they have their way, we will definitely be reduced to prefilled cartos and tobacco and menthol only (and right now many of us are complaining about WTA in the AEMSA charter...???)!! This group (TVECA) definitely does not have the consumer at heart.

After watching the VapeTeam show from last night, which was about AEMSA (VPLive Vape Team Episode #44: AEMSA Speaks Out - YouTube), they explicitly stated that the current guidelines are dynamic, and under constant review, subject to change, and they welcome and encourage both comments from consumers as well as active participation by consumers. This tells me that this is a trade organization that cares about it's customer, since without the customer, there is no trade. So if everyone could watch this (yes, it's long, but watch it in parts, as YouTube will remember where you left off), I think we'll all have a higher comfort level about it all. FDA will be doing something soon, so let's get united so we can be heard!

Frankly, I came to the thread interested and after seeing the various thoughts on this subject I hardly think ANY of it matters.... Here's why:

A company in the USA is manufacturing and RIGHT NOW selling an ecigarette that is designed to do something that will have all ecigs in the united states banned forever. I wont state it in the open forums but I got an email from a chinese reseller/manufacturer today that is representing this product.

If one of the moderators could pm me Ill point them in the right direction. I have no idea what to do with this info, and when I saw it I got ...... that a US based ecig company could be sooooo stupid. They are going to end ecigs for all of us if this gets out as common knowledge.

Buffaloguy: This sounds like GreenNicotine to me, this company scares the heck out of me. IIRC, Russ on Click Bang! had a quite interesting conversation with the head of this company fairly recently, and the guy sounds more like a slimy politician than anything. Scares me that he has a fan base on FB too!

 

[filter]

Subpar liquids that may contain anything is not safe to inhale. The way its stands now, is we have no regulation, on quality control measures- that are standards for us. The Health issue surrounds what is in E-Liquids; and to say we know who makes quality juice is not enough.- That is not science based, and has no creditability with vapers, or health organizations that we are trying so hard to be on board with us. This idea of big brother does not fly with me at all.

I want to be sure, that what I am inhaling contains; safe products and that is it pure- and things that are may not be safe to inhale are NOT in there.- We need science on our side, and that cannot happen unless we are all following standard protocol. The entire point of vaping is for a safer alternative. The Tobacco industry has very very strict product guidelines, for quality assurance, we need to get there, and this is the only way. To say to the public - to the millions of users, - just trust me, is not enough. It will never ever get the FDA or Health and Welfare Canada to agree to what we do.

Bottom Line: we as vapers need to assured that vendors are safe, and using additives that are safe and pure.- Regulation is coming, and we want to be shape that, and have a voice. Telling the public- just trust us, is not going to be creditable.

the tobacco industry has very strict product guidelines that allow them to put thousands of chemicals into their products? the FDA has a revolving door with Monsanto and other evil corporations that allows them to do the bidding of those same corporations. this is why half the food we eat is genetically modifiied and isn't even labeled as such.

 

[MorpheusPA]

The other reason I'm depressed I never thought I'd be cheering for Mitt.

One reason I disliked the 'cast. A former Monsanto exec heads the FDA and people expect that to be better or different under Mitt?

He sounds like he's letting his politics get in the way of reality. And the reality is that the FDA is coming no matter what we do.

In this particular instance, that's why I welcome Lolliard and Blu into the marketplace with open arms. They have money to fight and bribe where necessary. We do not. BT is by far the lesser of two evils in this case than BP.

 

[keyzygirl]

Here is the other group to check out just to see the differences.

SFATA.org

 

[Matthew1980]

Burning tobacco is deadly by nature- What I am referring to is product control- To ensure what is suppose to be in there is in there; and chemicals that when vaped are dangerous are not in there. As users of this product asking for that standard is not to much to ask for, we all tape for the reasons, of Nicotine, and enjoyment.- to say that its ok for someone with zero credentials, zero regards for safety or someone simply is not skilled enough in this field has the potential to injury people. or cause serious health issues. I am not saying any vendors are, but it could happen. I know the vendors I use are highly respected. But right now the way it stands, are there is not one standard- none.

If we want to respected; we should be embracing this idea of a product control. What if someone places dangerous chemicals into E liquid? Think of what can happen; so we need a standard code that all vendors support and abide to. I fully support it- its the right thing to do; and the right thing for our casue. Its the same reason I agree in priniciple with the Lorrilard purchase of BLU.- They have connection with the FDA, and HC, and have the money; and lots of it. They have the product controls, and infrastructure. They have the potentional to take us to the next level.- while I am not 100% supportive of it, I have to see the bigger picture.

 

[Matthew1980]

While I am 5% on the edge with the track record of the industry- we have to move past it. They have billions- to spend for us, and to take our product to a very high level.- The money alone to move us is unreal. I feel more of this industry is about to start purchases of others. We know that the industry had its own products all that failed in the market- " The Accord" and others- all bombed with customers.- None of it made it.

Then came us. we are millions strong now, on a product that we love, and enjoy. I feel strongly this industry can turn around its deadly- past into something really good. Lorrilard I feel is really onto us. They love the product, we have,