American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[JENerationX]

I just wanted to clarify because part of one of my posts was read on the air. I am not a vendor. I'm just a concerned juice consumer. I do believe there should be regulations.

My only concern is that there's been a lot of talk about AEMSA representing their members to the FDA. While I understand that the intent is not to claim to represent the entire community, there has to be some awareness that what a large trade organization (which I assume AEMSA aspires to be) says should or should not be in e-juice is going to have an impact on the entire community when the government starts to look at regulating vendors. There will be regulation, and there will be standards, and those will ultimately come from the FDA whether any of us like it or not. Hopefully we escape that as long as possible, but when it does happen, I have concerns that "WTA is bad" or "no juice should be over 32mg" is something that the ANTZ and the FDA is hearing from inside our own community. I see the point of self regulation, but I can also see even in the best case scenario if the FDA swoops in and adopts all of AEMSA's standards for juice vendors, we will lose WTA, we will lose part time businesses and start-ups that don't have a separate lab, and we will lose 36mg juice. You can say "we only represent our members" until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, to those outside the community, you will be watched and your actions will reflect on everyone.

 

[keyzygirl]

I just wanted to clarify because part of one of my posts was read on the air. I am not a vendor. I'm just a concerned juice consumer. I do believe there should be regulations.

My only concern is that there's been a lot of talk about AEMSA representing their members to the FDA. While I understand that the intent is not to claim to represent the entire community, there has to be some awareness that what a large trade organization (which I assume AEMSA aspires to be) says should or should not be in e-juice is going to have an impact on the entire community when the government starts to look at regulating vendors. There will be regulation, and there will be standards, and those will ultimately come from the FDA whether any of us like it or not. Hopefully we escape that as long as possible, but when it does happen, I have concerns that "WTA is bad" or "no juice should be over 32mg" is something that the ANTZ and the FDA is hearing from inside our own community. I see the point of self regulation, but I can also see even in the best case scenario if the FDA swoops in and adopts all of AEMSA's standards for juice vendors, we will lose WTA, we will lose part time businesses and start-ups that don't have a separate lab, and we will lose 36mg juice. You can say "we only represent our members" until you're blue in the face, but the fact is, to those outside the community, you will be watched and your actions will reflect on everyone.

I agree,They may represent ONLY their members by choice but it WILL effect us all. Thats why community input is important if they want to succeed. They need us to feel comfortable with what they are doing. Its the only way to succeed. Open lines of communication with the community will be key.

 

[jimrug1]

I found this to be interesting/disconcerting.. I had no idea. It is an excerpt from a 2010 Reuters article regarding FDA crackdown on e-cig makers. I apologize if this is not the place to put this. It seemed relevant to this thread since it involved e-liquid. Here is the entire article... FDA cracks down on 5 makers of e-cigarettes | Reuters


"In addition to the stop smoking claims, some of the companies were targeted because they sell medications in liquid form to be used in cartridges that become vaporized and can be inhaled by users.

E-Cig Technology, for example, markets the erectile dysfunction drug tadalafil, sold by Eli Lilly as ......, and a liquid version of the weight-loss drug rimonabant or Compal, a Sanofi-Aventis drug that never won U.S. marketing approval and was pulled from the market in Europe because of safety concerns."

I know this is a 2010 article but this still an ongoing issue w/ the FDA?

 

[DC2]

Admission into any trade org needs to be independent and unbiased... that is to say anyone who mfgs juice should be able to submit required materials (copy of bus. License, product samples, URL/information, photos/videos of perp/mfg areas) to be reviewed. Product sample testing should be done by a third party to ensure quality/safety and testing cost should be borne by applicant. Photos should remain closed (unless mfg wishes to display it themselves) due to concern of proprietary formulations, techniques, etc. While independent teadeborgs can help in many ways, some can hurt an industry. But ANY mfgr/vendor should be able to enter into the trade org, alone, without needing vouched for. If their info is verifiable and they meet requirements, and pass regular unplanned inspections of product (it would be a tax write-off... or from the ecig users who wished to donate sealed samples, yet another thing that should be required, to ensure safety). Entrance fee should be minimal. If the tests cost $50 each and three samples for each test 5 nic levels offered then they should supply/pay for that... but as a startup trade org it needs to be independent as can be to include large/enormous entrance fees. Entrance fees should be able to be verified by anyone... as to what company xxxxxx's $200 fee went to. You should then request donations freely withoutaking it a requirement, from mfgrs and vendors for further/continuing ops. After the first year a 'board 'should be established, consisting of members.there also needs to be a process established for evolution.



Further as a cover your @$$ you need to have notice that while a member mfg meets criteria that the 'seal' does not bear any guarantee, endorsement, etc.

You also should require vendors to have certain minimal labeling specs... such as mfg date, lot Nos, nicotine content, base composition, and presence of artificial colors.

Not all mfgrs market direct to consumers, but most do. Some mfgrs make products for some vendors who will attach their own label (I know of a smoke shop who does this) as per the mfgrs licensing agreement.in such a case the reseller would be at a severe disadvantage, either give up mfgrs info, or they should be granted a vendor certification based on mfgrs cert. and thus be able to be competitive on then open market. This is my biggest concern frankly as if one vendor who outsources their mfg to even a friends business, the vendor would essentially have to stop reselling in current format and either just have it labeled as from mfgr, which would cause a drop in sales for vendor, and interfere with a licensing agreement. For this reason I think there should be both mfg and vendor certs... which includes my last concern....

Storage.... this is another field I have yet to see covered. If a mfg is up and up on all listed criterion then they go and store bases next to a heater, or some other problematic method of storage that it needs be par of criteria... as does worker safety...

Can someone from AEMSA please contact this poster and see if he is willing to become involved?

 

[Ceegary]

BT is in the market and will be MUCH more in the future, whether we like it or not. Support that if you like but it what it will mostly likely bring is huge hurdles to meet regs (IOW $$$$), pre-filled cartos only and a much higher retail cost with very limited flavors. They're not here to co-exist, they plan to dominate.

 

[db2k]

Can someone from AEMSA please contact this poster and see if he is willing to become involved?

Any US e-liquid manufacturer may apply.
Contact Us | AEMSA

This contact form can also be used as the general contact.

Thanks,
Scott

 

[Ctor]

Any US e-liquid manufacturer may apply.
Contact Us | AEMSA

This contact form can also be used as the general contact.

Thanks,
Scott

How about a consumer advisory board? Since it's your intent to make your standards everyone's standards by way of the FDA, then you are affecting not only juice manufacturers but every consumer that uses e-liquid.

 

[thinkingaboutit]

How about a consumer advisory board? Since it's your intent to make your standards everyone's standards by way of the FDA, then you are affecting not only juice manufacturers but every consumer that uses e-liquid.

I take it this is you offering to help? May I say thanks in advance. We need help on all fronts.

 

[drsocal]

More "safety" regulations... I think we have had enough don't you? Let's keep politics out of this one. Personally, there is nothing to be excited about.

 

[Uma]

With valid points on both sides of the net, I feel like a ping pong ball.
It's almost as thought provoking as reading a thread in the Outside forum. (love the way some of them truely debate).

I say "almost as thought provoking" because while I hear the words "evolving, with community input", I also hear the adamant words "NO WAY" on the one side of the table. Is or is not the case closed concerning the WTA, Monthly fees, and community polls?

Surely there's a way to also Seal of Approval the WTA vendors, manufacturers.
Surely there's a way for Mom and Pop to join without going bankrupt.
Surely there's a way to form a poll about any issues that are passionately discussed.

Exactly what is the sliding scale? It's been said there is one, yet so far, it hasn't been discussed here that I'm aware of.
Exactly why would it be so difficult to have separate seals for various styles of e-juice? Organic, WTA, Neon Rainbows, etc.. The SEAL OF APPROVAL for the established rules for their particular product.

The absence of information is causing guards to be raised.

I am for the movement, but I demand democracy.

 

[Ctor]

I take it this is you offering to help? May I say thanks in advance. We need help on all fronts.

I'd be more than willing. I would question, though, whether my areas of expertise would be of any use in such a capacity.

 

[Quick1]

the tobacco industry has very strict product guidelines that allow them to put thousands of chemicals into their products? the FDA has a revolving door with Monsanto and other evil corporations that allows them to do the bidding of those same corporations. this is why half the food we eat is genetically modifiied and isn't even labeled as such.

...so you think AEMSA should add Big Tobacco, Monsanto and genetically modified food to their mission statement?

 

[oldsoldier]

Replay of last night's show "AEMSA Speaks Out" is up. Thank you to Russ of ClickBang Radio for co hosting with me and all the guests, attendees and people that called in.

Having viewed this video from start to finish I would to clear up some matters.

ECF does not have any moderators or Admins on the AEMSA Board. This cannot be said enough times. Lou has said it, Linc has said it, I have said it yet people still think we are connected. ECF has brought visibility to this subject because we feel it is important community news.

Keyzy is a moderator for the PIF social group forum, she is not an ECF moderator.

 

[Projectguy]

I have been doing nothing but follow this thread since it started. I have read, responded, offered my opinion and listened to others. I have come to the conclusion that there is only one solution to this very passionate discussion by a whole lot of good people on both sides and on the fence - we are all looking for leadership and a voice that will represent our interests whether we are consumers, moders, juice makers or anyone else in this community.

To date the only organization that that does not have a vested financial interest in the future and yet is out there on the firing line every day mostly as volunteers is CASAA.

Instead of AEMSA we should beef up CASAA by agreeing to a minimum payment per order on "stuff" we order from our suppliers to CASAA. CASAA would support all of our interests: no secret deals, no power blocks and no one left out. And now I have a voice equal to the juice makers and the moders. How? We'll figure it out; who, how much, how, etc.

OH and please don't anyone try to lecture me on taxation; I'm Canadian and I'd gladly trade your tax bill for mine.

I will gladly pay a self imposed tithe or tax whatever you want to call it to support a strong CASAA that will represent all of our interests.

As a matter of fact I will put my money where my mouth is. I started vaping 1 June 2012 since then I've spent about $840 on stuff and juice (including my ZAP which has been in Canada Customs for the past 2 weeks...sigh).

So, money I can ill afford to spend, but that must be spent. I will send CASAA $84 or 10% of what I have spent to date. I will make the payment and request that CASAA send me a receipt that I will post here. Hey I sent ECF $24.00 to help support a place where I can vent why not add a little to support CASAA so I can keep vaping.

Let's stop talking about it and do something about it - SUPPORT CASAA

PS: Juggy from here on in add 10% to my orders and send it to CASAA.

 

[oldsoldier]

@projectguy. CASAA has made it clear that this is an area they do not wish to enter. Their plate is full enough already. Honestly they are right to maintain a narrow focus and avoid entanglement with industry groups as they are a consumer group.

The thing is that Industry concerns and consumer concerns overlap, but are not always the same.

 

[Projectguy]

@projectguy. CASAA has made it clear that this is an area they do not wish to enter. Their plate is full enough already. Honestly they are right to maintain a narrow focus and avoid entanglement with industry groups as they are a consumer group.

The thing is that Industry concerns and consumer concerns overlap, but are not always the same.

Thanks Oldsoldier I obviously wasn't reading closely enough. I was being intellectually sloppy and I sent them my money already. No worries it is for a good cause.

Hello Jacques Huot,

This email confirms that you have donated $84.00 USD to CASAA INC (customerservice@casaa.org) using PayPal.
The exchange rate for this purchase is 1 Canadian Dollar = 0.995496 U.S. Dollars.

Donation Details
Confirmation number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Donation amount: $84.00 USD
Total: $84.00 USD
Purpose: Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association
Reference: CASAA Donation
Contributor: Jacques Huot

Recipient information
Donations coordinator: CASAA INC
Contact email: customerservice@casaa.org

Your confirmed address

Mailing information: Jacques Huot
XXX XXXXXXXXXXX XXXX
XXXXXXXX, XX
Canada

Thanks,

 

[Adam the Aussie]

AEMSA's opinion will only hold weight with the FDA if they have a large percentage of US vendors as members. What happens if/when all the US vendors tell AEMSA to stick their 6k up their clacker, we're not joining? AEMSA becomes a toothless tiger.

There's several outcomes possible here, some include the vendors getting together and setting out their own non negotiables which they can all adhere to. The most likely outcome is everything gets too hard and expensive for most US vendors, leaving a few larger juice makers who will charge too much for their product, forcing the majority of vapers to source their juices from China. I guess this will bring the vaping community in line with the rest of society.

Are things really that bad with juice quality that the US needs AEMSA? Why can't individual vendors list their safety precautions on their sites and let customers decide where they want to shop?

Yes, I'm Australian, but I've been buying US juices for nearly 18 months, good juices, juices I don't want to see disappear.

 

[Projectguy]

@projectguy. CASAA has made it clear that this is an area they do not wish to enter. Their plate is full enough already. Honestly they are right to maintain a narrow focus and avoid entanglement with industry groups as they are a consumer group.

The thing is that Industry concerns and consumer concerns overlap, but are not always the same.

You know Oldsoldier your post made me think. Don't get me wrong, I didn't do what I should have done which is to be properly informed.

Now that I've had 4 hours sleep I should be good to go.

Maybe these organizations should be assuming a mantle, not of their choosing but one that we as a community require of them. Notice that I didn't say "demand" of them but "require" of the them. No wonder we have AEMSA being created; its filling a leadership vacuum. Regardless of what I think of them or the idea I do not have the right to to criticize anything about their organization. They are doing what they believe they need to do to survive.

Unless we are prepared to do it ourselves or support someone who will represent us we deserve what we get.

PS I don't begrudge CASAA my $84 they are good people doing good work it's just too bad that I did it at the expense of my Zenesis Fund where my money should be going; supporting excellence and innovation here in America.

 

[thinkingaboutit]

I'd be more than willing. I would question, though, whether my areas of expertise would be of any use in such a capacity.

You never know. If nothing else, I hope you have checked out CASAA.

 

[Barto]

Very interesting...subscribing to this thread.