American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[Antwoord]

You know Oldsoldier your post made me think. Don't get me wrong, I didn't do what I should have done which is to be properly informed.

Now that I've had 4 hours sleep I should be good to go.

Maybe these organizations should be assuming a mantle, not of their choosing but one that we as a community require of them. Notice that I didn't say "demand" of them but "require" of the them. No wonder we have AEMSA being created; its filling a leadership vacuum. Regardless of what I think of them or the idea I do not have the right to to criticize anything about their organization. They are doing what they believe they need to do to survive.

Unless we are prepared to do it ourselves or support someone who will represent us we deserve what we get.

PS I don't begrudge CASAA my $84 they are good people doing good work it's just too bad that I did it at the expense of my Zenesis Fund where my money should be going; supporting excellence and innovation here in America.

I thought your idea of donating a percentage of purchases to CASAA was a really great idea. Here are SFATA's policies and membership dues to give an idea of at least, what their organization expects practices and revenues to be for vendors.

SFATA sets industry standards in manufacturing, responsible sales and quality control. SFATA is self-regulating and members must meet the minimum criteria (within six months) of becoming a paying member to maintain membership status:

Products must not exceed 2.4% nicotine content
Childproof caps and shrink-banding for e-liquid products must be used
Accurate and current product labeling must be maintained
Nicotine warnings must be posted on all packaging and websites
California Prop 65 Warning must be listed on websites and labels
Lot or batch codes must be listed on liquids and cartridges
Expiration dates on e-liquid and cartridges must be listed
Nicotine content by percentage must be provided
Proper classification of imports for U.S. Customs must be utilized
Marketing to children is forbidden
Health claims are prohibited


How Does Membership Work?
SFATA meets its legislative, regulatory and campaign goals through membership dues and donations. Dues are based on self-reported annual revenues and are paid monthly.



Dues Structure
Annual Revenue Monthly Dues
$0 – $3.9M $416.66
$4M – $9.9M $833.33
$10M – $29.9M $2,083.33
$30M – $99.9M $4,166.66
$100M or above $8,333.33

Source: http://www.sfata.org/membership/benefits-of-membership/

It seems even a fraction of a penny on the dollar going to CASAA would make a big difference. I'm not sure that adding the requirement of donating a percentage of revenues from AEMSA members to CASAA would be a good idea...but it sure would give them some much needed support. Perhaps just an encouragement of its members to support CASAA would be an awesome gesture.

 

[Daren Despot]

I agree that it is the best time for this to happen as there has been enough time for the community to test, critique and give feedback, and even INVENT all manner of eliquid. We have a good foundation for defining what a proper eliquid should be, and AEMSTA will now be able to use this foundation to regularise standards for the benefit of new and current vapers.

 

[Stubby]

My name is Jerry Green. I’m the founder and president of Aroma E-Juice. To my knowledge, Aroma E-Juice is the only commercial manufacturer of WTA in a controlled laboratory. I have followed the discussion on AEMSA very closely. I am disappointed and confused by the association’s position on WTA.

From Day One, I have maintained an open door policy at Aroma E-Juice. Anyone is welcome to visit our lab. I have repeatedly invited AEMSA’s president to visit us. He has yet to accept my invitation. In fact, the association has made no attempt to contact me by email, phone or even smoke signals before this announcement. If AEMSA wants to be the association of our community, it owes us a more professional approach.

I stand behind our production and our people at Aroma E-Juice. Our practices exceed those announced by AEMSA. Our commitment to safety is unmatched. It’s said seeing is believing. So I will make the same offer I have made to AEMSA. Come visit us and see for yourself.

Thank you who have been supportive of WTA. I assure you I will continue to defend our work and your rights on this board and elsewhere.

Replay of last night's show "AEMSA Speaks Out" is up. Thank you to Russ of ClickBang Radio for co hosting with me and all the guests, attendees and people that called in.

So let me get this straight. AEMSA had no contact with Aroma despite repeated efforts by Jerry. Then without any impute from the major WTA manufacture they develop a no-WTA policy on rather weak grounds that sound a whole lot like covering their back sides then a rational approach.

The whole thing smacks of amateur cronyism. If AEMSA would have at least been a bit more subtle in their cronyism I could at least appreciate that, but this is a like watching the three stooges. Certainly not a good beginning.

 

[kwalka]

So let me get this straight. AEMSA had no contact with Aroma despite repeated efforts by Jerry. Then without any impute from the major WTA manufacture they develop a no-WTA policy on rather weak grounds that sound a whole lot like covering their back sides then a rational approach.

The whole thing smacks of amateur cronyism. If AEMSA would have at least been a bit more subtle in their cronyism I could at least appreciate that, but this is a like watching the three stooges. Certainly not a good beginning.

If you watched the video you would of seen the lenghty explanation about this alleged invitation (long before AEMSA existed).

 

[snork]

If you watched the video you would of seen the lenghty explanation about this alleged invitation (long before AEMSA existed).

And if you listen to this podcast, which happens to be a conversation between the Vice President and Treasurer of AEMSA (but long before AEMSA existed) it's a little difficult to believe that a preexisting prejudice hasn't been carried over.

http://www.vaporcast.com/index.php?...st/podcast+(VaporCast)&utm_content=FeedBurner

 

[kwalka]

And if you listen to this podcast, which happens to be a conversation between the Vice President and Treasurer of AEMSA (but long before AEMSA existed) it's a little difficult to believe that a preexisting prejudice hasn't been carried over.

http://www.vaporcast.com/index.php?...st/podcast+(VaporCast)&utm_content=FeedBurner

Had I any idea it existed, I prob would. I will give it a listen, thanks.

 

[oldsoldier]

Seems like people are picking and choosing what they wish to hear out of the podcast. Linc and Lou both said they think WTA has a place and Kurt wants more science in order to make a call on the issue.

It's about the science, not Jerry.

 

[snork]

Seems like people are picking and choosing what they wish to hear out of the podcast. Linc and Lou both said they think WTA has a place and Kurt wants more science in order to make a call on the issue.

It's about the science, not Jerry.

Right. The podcast is a separate thing and probably should be taken for what it is - opinion and vape-u-tainment. But it stands for itself and it's up to the listener whether it means anything.

I'm very satisfied with the response I got when I called the show.

 

[kwalka]

And if you listen to this podcast, which happens to be a conversation between the Vice President and Treasurer of AEMSA (but long before AEMSA existed) it's a little difficult to believe that a preexisting prejudice hasn't been carried over.

http://www.vaporcast.com/index.php?...st/podcast+(VaporCast)&utm_content=FeedBurner

Ok so I can't/wont listen to that crap. I dont know if there is some actual real info to be had there, but I'm not going to waste any more of my life in hopes that the content improves.

 

[snork]

Agree. I would point you to about one hour in, but really nothing should be taken out of context.

 

[Stubby]

Seems like people are picking and choosing what they wish to hear out of the podcast. Linc and Lou both said they think WTA has a place and Kurt wants more science in order to make a call on the issue.

It's about the science, not Jerry.

You are right in that it is not about Jerry, but it's also not about science. Why would AEMSA not talk to the major WTA producer before coming up with a policy on WTA? That's not science, or even common sense. To not talk to someone with likely more practical knowledge on WTA then anyone before creating a WTA policy is certainly not science.

Other then that I can't say more as I have no connection to Jerry or AEMSA and have no inside scoop. If it walks and talks like a duck its likely a duck. Hopefully they can work it out.

 

[Ceegary]

It wasn't alleged, it occurred and Lew admitted that. His enquiry about methods and such was made long before AEMSA was formed but he and the rest of AEMSA knew who Aroma were, had a personal invite and certainly should have contacted Aroma before putting WTA on the banned list. You can't say, as they did, Aroma refused to divulge and base that on a conversation a year ago. You can only say that if AEMSA made an official approach and enquiry before putting WTA on the banned list.

Lew said he didn't like it when he tried it so maybe it's just "I don't like it, so ban it". Or maybe he was affronted when Jerry didn't divulge proprietary info to him. However, the prejudice within AEMSA on WTA is deeper than that. To fully realize that, listen to this interview of another board member; Adam Knudsen (VaporCast). This whole show is about why he hates WTA.

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids Revisited by VP Live on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
At least Adam has a real reason, even if it may not be correct.

I would say this proves not just cronyism but extreme prejudice. So now they're backtracking and saying it's about the science and WTA has a place etc. Given the amount of prejudice I think Aroma would simply be wasting time, effort and money trying to change their minds and I think it's naive of Old Soldier to think otherwise. All it would do would give AEMSA the ability to say we did check it out. None of it would be in public view either, so who could tell?

If the FDA bans all e-liquid sales that are not it a carto or cart what will they have AEMSA have achieved anyway? If the requirements for a lab to produce juice force expenditure of hundreds of thousands of dollars, not many will be able to clear that bar either.

I just hope that Aroma doesn't become discouraged by this ostracism but continues to make WTA. Vote with your wallet!

If you watched the video you would of seen the lenghty explanation about this alleged invitation (long before AEMSA existed).

 

[oldsoldier]

knowing what I know about the industry as a whole I assure you that I am not naive.

People have a very bad habit of taking things out of context to support their agenda rather than look at the whole picture. In the end I predict that the AESMA will include WTA, it is only a matter of satisfying Kurt (the board seems to be depending heavily on his opinion as their on staff scientist).

 

[kwalka]

It wasn't alleged, it occurred and Lew admitted that. His enquiry about methods and such was made long before AEMSA was formed but he and the rest of AEMSA knew who Aroma were, had a personal invite and certainly should have contacted Aroma before putting WTA on the banned list. You can't say, as they did, Aroma refused to divulge and base that on a conversation a year ago. You can only say that if AEMSA made an official approach and enquiry before putting WTA on the banned list.

Lew said he didn't like it when he tried it so maybe it's just "I don't like it, so ban it". Or maybe he was affronted when Jerry didn't divulge proprietary info to him. However, the prejudice within AEMSA on WTA is deeper than that. To fully realize that, listen to this interview of another board member; Adam Knudsen (VaporCast). This whole show is about why he hates WTA.

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids Revisited by VP Live on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free
At least Adam has a real reason, even if it may not be correct.

I would say this proves not just cronyism but extreme prejudice. So now they're backtracking and saying it's about the science and WTA has a place etc. Given the amount of prejudice I think Aroma would simply be wasting time, effort and money trying to change their minds and I think it's naive of Old Soldier to think otherwise. All it would do would give AEMSA the ability to say we did check it out. None of it would be in public view either, so who could tell?

If the FDA bans all e-liquid sales that are not it a carto or cart what will they have AEMSA have achieved anyway? If the requirements for a lab to produce juice force expenditure of hundreds of thousands of dollars, not many will be able to clear that bar either.

I just hope that Aroma doesn't become discouraged by this ostracism but continues to make WTA. Vote with your wallet!

I should not of used the term alleged. He did say he was invited, as a private citizen long before AEMSA was formed to "check out their facility". To say that their ostracized because AEMSA needs scientific data to analyze, is silly. If they would allow WTAs without proper examination, this would go against their standards and any good manufacturing practice. Gee this is starting to sound like a lot of the additives in cigarettes, just throw it in there, nobody really cares anyway. AEMSA clearly stated that if they want to submit to their application process, they would be glad to consider them just like any other manufacturer. That was very clear.

I did not listen to that link yet.

 

[DC2]

And if you listen to this podcast, which happens to be a conversation between the Vice President and Treasurer of AEMSA (but long before AEMSA existed) it's a little difficult to believe that a preexisting prejudice hasn't been carried over.

I haven't had time to listen to this podcast, but I intend to do so very soon.

But if there is a preexisting prejudice against WTA, they better lose it.
The exclusion of WTA is one of the main factors that will prevent community support of this effort.

If the reasons are valid, then we need to know.
And those reasons better be good enough to make me quit using WTA juice.

If not, then they need to find a way to get over it.

 

[snork]

Ceegary, personally I have no beef with a trade association setting its own standards and if that means No WTA, fine. But I'm looking at it this way: They say they are "...the first and only Manufacturers' trade association completely dedicated to creating responsible and sustainable standards for the safe manufacturing of "e-liquids" used in electronic cigarettes."
I just want to try and see that they don't give anyone the impression that WTA is bad without equal...science.

 

[Ceegary]

They don't have any specific reasons other they want detailed information and tests beyond what they're asking of any other supplier before they would even consider it. To be fair, Kurt backtracked a bit and spoke about first seeing a test result and I do believe he has a scientific approach. If the board had been fair in an effort to examine WTA, it should have been made prior, despite the prejudice.

Plus I highly doubt than even with a comprehensive test result, (which no other manufacturer is subjected to or even tested at that level to make sure they comply) the chances are they will still demand proprietary info. I certainly wouldn't trust them with that even with an NDA. See Full Tilt Poker and Bernie Madoff for examples of bad things can turn out and they had much higher visibility and backgrounds.

 

[throatkick]

AEMSA's opinion will only hold weight with the FDA if they have a large percentage of US vendors as members. What happens if/when all the US vendors tell AEMSA to stick their 6k up their clacker, we're not joining? AEMSA becomes a toothless tiger.

In the beginning, this holds true. As more companies join and influence grows (assuming it does), then you will see many who are expressing their displeasure (openly or privately) stumble over each other to join. Human nature is a funny thing

My reasoning is (and I definitely could be wrong) that vaping ,as we know it, is being threatened. It is being threatened by the FDA now and down the road by the big boys who will eventually seek to raise the levels of compliance to standards that very few here will be able to meet.

So, eventually the liquid makers will have to comply with various standards one way or the other. The larger ones might be able to squeeze through and it will be interesting to see if they will do so in a manner that eliminates most of the smaller companies or if they try to pull them up. I hope they pull them up. The way I see it, someone that started in his garage, regardless of present success, has a lot more in common with other, smaller liquid suppliers than with some big corporate entity or governmental regulatory agency.

I was thinking about the 6k too. It is steep but, if someone cannot afford 6k, what are the chances they will be able to fully comply? Although I firmly believe the price of entry should be lower for smaller liquid suppliers, if I am not mistaken the fees are to be paid on a monthly basis and not as a lump sum.

Another issue I am not aware of is how these standards compare to what the FDA may require or will desire to require. In listening to the broadcast, I think I heard something about FDA guidelines being 180+ pages for certified facilities. Please confirm that. I am simply stating that while these steps will definitely provide a huge leap forward to what is going on today, they may fall very short of what the FDA has in mind.

Ultimately, it boils down to intent and now the intent has shifted from vaping and creating new liquids etc. to business decisions. We need an organization and voice as well. I just hope AEMSA reaches out to smallest providers possible without being overly burdened and that the smallest providers strive to improve and raise their standards as much as they possibly can.

There's several outcomes possible here, some include the vendors getting together and setting out their own non negotiables which they can all adhere to. The most likely outcome is everything gets too hard and expensive for most US vendors, leaving a few larger juice makers who will charge too much for their product, forcing the majority of vapers to source their juices from China. I guess this will bring the vaping community in line with the rest of society.

We are a minority. I have spoken to many about vaping that thought they were all cool because they bought a BLU or Greensmoke or V2. Once you break out the tanks, bottles of liquid and APVs you are looking at a very small percentage of the market. Most are happy with their overpriced, pre-filled cartos. Then, just as some started refilling overpriced printer cartridges, a few realize there is a better way...small percentage though.

Yes, I'm Australian, but I've been buying US juices for nearly 18 months, good juices, juices I don't want to see disappear.

And this is what it's all about isn't it? We all feel a "connection" that is slowly being broken. Regulations will break this party up either way. There is money at stake here and it would be very naive to think that this would be allowed to continue. There will be health concerns, sanitary issues and a bunch of other "reasons" that will be amplified as much as is humanly possible so as to gain control.

I just hope that through these organizations the grass roots movement will still have a voice. If these organizations choose to close the door on the small guy, then, to me, they are part of the establishment.

 

[Adam the Aussie]

Gee this is starting to sound like a lot of the additives in cigarettes, just throw it in there, nobody really cares anyway.

But AEMSA are already doing this, why are artificial colorings allowed? AEMSA tell us they want to be the voice of the vaping community when the FDA come knocking. What will be their argument on artificial colorings? We allow it because it makes the juice look pretty? I'm sure the FDA would love that. At least with WTA they'd have a valid argument as to why they allow it. This sort of Mickey Mouse crap just won't fly when crunch time comes.

 

[Ceegary]

I don't mean to imply you're a naive person, just about the extent of prejudice in this situation. You're right, we all see things from our side of the fence. You saw Lew deferring to Kurt as them going to abide by science. I saw him admitting that he knows very little about the science and YET he was a part of not allowing or approaching Aroma about WTA. Hiding behind a query he made as a casual acquaintance and now having to admit he had no background to even understand an answer if one had been given.

To me this looks like a political cover-up.

knowing what I know about the industry as a whole I assure you that I am not naive.

People have a very bad habit of taking things out of context to support their agenda rather than look at the whole picture. In the end I predict that the AESMA will include WTA, it is only a matter of satisfying Kurt (the board seems to be depending heavily on his opinion as their on staff scientist).