American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[AlmightyGod]

Does anyone really think these guys will have a real say so?

The big boys are playing for keeps. They made bigger deals, & made more money in the last week than any of the charter members have made since they opened....even if you combined them all.

I don't think many understand the bubble we live in, & the size and scope of the entire market.

I'm done worrying about it.

 

[Projectguy]

AG where did the pictures come from?

Oh and BTW in response to your question absolutely they will "control the spice" but not directly their won't be enough margin in it. I'm looking for a food processor or BP.

 

[AlmightyGod]

The pics were from the convenience store trade show in Las Vegas last week.

 

[thinkingaboutit]

The pics were from the convenience store trade show in Las Vegas last week.

Which means a picture is worth about $200K. Or more, it depends on on the trade show and how much they spent on the hardware.

 

[AlmightyGod]

Which means a picture is worth about $200K. Or more, it depends on on the trade show and how much they spent on the hardware.

Try $1,000,000+ depending on the manufacturer. These shows are where the likes of Wal-mart, Costco, & gas station distributors go to make their deals.

 

[glassmanoak]

Which means a picture is worth about $200K. Or more, it depends on on the trade show and how much they spent on the hardware.

It doesn't really matter, thinkingaboutit. Remember in matters of who controls what, always look for the money. Big tobacco and, maybe more importantly, Big Pharmaceuticals have the BIG BUCKS! Anything put together by we one percenters doesn't mean squat. They will control availability, price, flavors and anything else they choose to control. Money spent at LV trade shows is a drop in the bucket.

 

[AlmightyGod]

Which makes one wonder why nine little businesses have chosen to form their own exclusive treehouse club within the community, & have excluded others based merely on the products they carry. I'm completely befuddled with the 32mg limit on nic, & the exclusion on WTA. It's not based on anything other than the group's bias...nothing else.

 

[snork]

Which makes one wonder why nine little businesses have chosen to form their own exclusive treehouse club within the community, & have excluded others based merely on the products they carry. I'm completely befuddled with the 32mg limit on nic, & the exclusion on WTA. It's not based on anything other than the group's bias...nothing else.

To make hay while the sun shines.
I have no doubt the industry will be swallowed, I'm hoping it won't be swallowed whole. We have a little subculture who are passionate and know what's what. It would be nice to hang on for as long as our subculture survives and be able to buy exactly what you want from a guy who buys you a pastrami sandwich.

 

[Mr.Mann]

disregard this post.....

 

[glassmanoak]

Which makes one wonder why nine little businesses have chosen to form their own exclusive treehouse club within the community, & have excluded others based merely on the products they carry. I'm completely befuddled with the 32mg limit on nic, & the exclusion on WTA. It's not based on anything other than the group's bias...nothing else.

I couldn't agree with you more! Once FDA or whoever starts their regulation, nothing this group does will count for squat! Lot's of time and money wasted by them and I'm sorry for them !

 

[Renolizzie]

Here is the good news from the photos. They want to promote the freedom to vape anywhere. They don't give a rat's behind about the little guys and probably couldn't care less if there are little guys. That means that they will probably not be nearly as worried about this tiny corner of the vaping world. If there are no trade organizations to promote e-liquids and tanks instead of only having prefilled cartridges then there won't be any other influence on the market than these over priced non refillable items available to the public. Having an association to promote e liquids may be your only hope of having influence on that aspect of the market.

I think the move to not have additives like caffeine and diet drugs in the e-cigs is a good move. I think the WTA issue will be resolved in the future. since it is tobacco related and not completely foreign like caffeine and diet drugs, once researched, may be on the approved list. However, since getting rid of the bad parts of cigarette smoking is the goal, it seems reasonable to make sure that WTA isn't keeping the more cancer causing agents or using caustic chemical that leave a residue that is being vaped into the lungs.

The food colorings issue seems to be one of the issues that will be researched further. The fact is that tiny amounts of food coloring are probably in the flavorings that are used and it may be difficult to say that no food colorings would be in the juice. Just saying. Don't know for a fact.

I didn't notice anything about not using oil based food flavorings. Water based food flavors should be the standard, I think. I haven't the time to read all the info, so perhaps that has been addressed by this association.

By banding together, there is a chance at influencing the FDA. The FDA is not a great government department but it looks like they are the ones that will be in charge of regulations. Stuck with it.

By participating in a rational discussion and giving suggestions to a trade group such as the one being discussed, you may well find out that the trade group really does care about vaping, isn't in it just for the money [after all, vaping is the best thing that ever happened to smokers like me and many others - our health is improving and we are off the cigs], and given the chance could bring out the best in people instead of the worst. You know, I realize that Americans are cynical and probably have a right to be since we seem to be turning into Ferengis but ... I believe that many people in the USA still have integrity and caring and that we should be working towards a less capitalistic and more kinder and realistic economy and society. Let's play nice and see what happens.

 

[Ceegary]

We already know what causes the cancers, it's not the alkaloids. Residual chemicals can be tested, but then maybe so should everything. Food colorings is very likely in the flavorings but it's either good or bad, not just convenient. You can fight the FDA but it terms of influence, look up Big Pharmaceuticals in the dictionary.

BT already has a lobby, it is to dominate. It's all about the money, no matter how much we dream of unicorns. The trade group wasn't put up for discussion, it was formed. Yes, they may listen and change but it's the way it was done and the arbitrary decisions that have been criticized. Whether they have any influence is very debatable and argument can equally be made about their efforts being useless, harmful or beneficial. We're not talking about a group of people who have any experience in this regard. It's nice to be positive, but needs to grounded in reality.

Here is the good news from the photos. They want to promote the freedom to vape anywhere. They don't give a rat's behind about the little guys and probably couldn't care less if there are little guys. That means that they will probably not be nearly as worried about this tiny corner of the vaping world. If there are no trade organizations to promote e-liquids and tanks instead of only having prefilled cartridges then there won't be any other influence on the market than these over priced non refillable items available to the public. Having an association to promote e liquids may be your only hope of having influence on that aspect of the market.

I think the move to not have additives like caffeine and diet drugs in the e-cigs is a good move. I think the WTA issue will be resolved in the future. since it is tobacco related and not completely foreign like caffeine and diet drugs, once researched, may be on the approved list. However, since getting rid of the bad parts of cigarette smoking is the goal, it seems reasonable to make sure that WTA isn't keeping the more cancer causing agents or using caustic chemical that leave a residue that is being vaped into the lungs.

The food colorings issue seems to be one of the issues that will be researched further. The fact is that tiny amounts of food coloring are probably in the flavorings that are used and it may be difficult to say that no food colorings would be in the juice. Just saying. Don't know for a fact.

I didn't notice anything about not using oil based food flavorings. Water based food flavors should be the standard, I think. I haven't the time to read all the info, so perhaps that has been addressed by this association.

By banding together, there is a chance at influencing the FDA. The FDA is not a great government department but it looks like they are the ones that will be in charge of regulations. Stuck with it.

By participating in a rational discussion and giving suggestions to a trade group such as the one being discussed, you may well find out that the trade group really does care about vaping, isn't in it just for the money [after all, vaping is the best thing that ever happened to smokers like me and many others - our health is improving and we are off the cigs], and given the chance could bring out the best in people instead of the worst. You know, I realize that Americans are cynical and probably have a right to be since we seem to be turning into Ferengis but ... I believe that many people in the USA still have integrity and caring and that we should be working towards a less capitalistic and more kinder and realistic economy and society. Let's play nice and see what happens.

 

[keyzygirl]

Just my opinion but I REALLY believe that Kurt should have a huge say and a vote on what is considered safe and acceptable in eliquid. I mean he is a chemist and has more experience and knowledge than anyone else in this group. Why would he not have a vote? It doesnt make sense.

 

[Quick1]

We already know what causes the cancers, it's not the alkaloids.

Ok, that's a start. If your only criterium is cancer prevention.

Residual chemicals can be tested, but then maybe so should everything.

That might be a good idea.

Food colorings is very likely in the flavorings...

But right now there is no standard/convention/guideline/certification for labeling or listing ingredients. Maybe that would be a step in the right direction?

BT already has a lobby, it is to dominate. It's all about the money, no matter how much we dream of unicorns. The trade group wasn't put up for discussion, it was formed. Yes, they may listen and change but it's the way it was done and the arbitrary decisions that have been criticized.

What would you suggest? Try to reach a concensus? really? I think the way they did it is the ONLY way you could ever get traction. You start with a small group, make a proposal and see if you gain support. If entities agree and see value in the core they might join and participate. If they don't they might form their own. You can't get a snowball going unless you actually roll something down the hill.

Whether they have any influence is very debatable and argument can equally be made about their efforts being useless, harmful or beneficial. We're not talking about a group of people who have any experience in this regard. It's nice to be positive, but needs to grounded in reality.

I believe you're saying it's a foregone conclusion and they're just walking dead? The FDA already already ran into some opposition and the effect was at least a delay. So somebody had some effect on something and it wasn't BT or BP right? Maybe a trade organization *can* have some influence on the FDA and (independent of that) it may benefit the consumer at the same time.

 

[Qew]

Just my opinion but I REALLY believe that Kurt should have a huge say and a vote on what is considered safe and acceptable in eliquid. I mean he is a chemist and has more experience and knowledge than anyone else in this group. Why would he not have a vote? It doesnt make sense.

In this day and age of liability and lawsuits, I'm willing to be that NO ONE will come out and state "this is safe". (Well, maybe BT) Also, there would have to be disclaimers, "I'm not a medical professional, but" that kind of thing on any statement from any of the members. Maybe keeping him out of a vote protects him and his science? Just a thought.

 

[keyzygirl]

In this day and age of liability and lawsuits, I'm willing to be that NO ONE will come out and state "this is safe". (Well, maybe BT) Also, there would have to be disclaimers, "I'm not a medical professional, but" that kind of thing on any statement from any of the members. Maybe keeping him out of a vote protects him and his science? Just a thought.

If he is going to be involved in the decisions that are made then he needs to be involved. Like I said its just my opinion. He very well may have a reason for not voting. I can understand that.

 

[Quick1]

If he is going to be involved in the decisions that are made then he needs to be involved. Like I said its just my opinion. He very well may have a reason for not voting. I can understand that.

I can see that. Surely the organization's decisions are not (and shouldn't be) based entirely on the science. Other factors should be considered as well. As the scientific consultant/authority you might well want to disassociate yourself from everything else in order to provide the best unbiased scientific opinions.

 

[Uma]

In this day and age of liability and lawsuits, I'm willing to be that NO ONE will come out and state "this is safe". (Well, maybe BT) Also, there would have to be disclaimers, "I'm not a medical professional, but" that kind of thing on any statement from any of the members. Maybe keeping him out of a vote protects him and his science? Just a thought.

If I remember correctly, the FDA is on the prowl because they do not have a list of disclaimers on our product. If it's too good to be true, it's probably a problem. In their eyes, they want KNOWN problems. They will have a long wait. So far, there are only beneficial outcomes.
In order to provide the FDA with the answers they seek, we have to come with disclaimers like Big Pharma does at the end of their commercials.
Ejuice may cause:
* Dizziness if your mg is too high for your needs at the moment
* Lack of sleep if you can't put that delicious flavor down long enough to get to bed
* Partial dehydration if you forget to drink water
* Sore throat if your atty is too dry because you forgot to squonk, drip or refill.
*
well, it's really hard to come up with anything they WANT to see, because even the longest vapers amongst us are still happy as a lark. There have been a few alarms posted over the years, but those were usually found to be other related causes.

Until the FDA has their book of disclaimers, they won't be happy.
Food Colorings, WTA, etc might provide some disclaimers.. we just need to tap into the already professed disclaimers out there. ?

 

[Stubby]

And if you listen to this podcast, which happens to be a conversation between the Vice President and Treasurer of AEMSA (but long before AEMSA existed) it's a little difficult to believe that a preexisting prejudice hasn't been carried over.

http://www.vaporcast.com/index.php?...st/podcast+(VaporCast)&utm_content=FeedBurner

For those that haven't listened to the show start at about 1 hour.

After listening to the podcast there appears to be little doubt the WTA issue has little to nothing to do with science and much to do with bias to the extreme. It is quite clear members or the board have strong opinions on WTA, and I would add irrational opinions, they have carried over to AEMSA.

Which makes one wonder why nine little businesses have chosen to form their own exclusive treehouse club within the community, & have excluded others based merely on the products they carry. I'm completely befuddled with the 32mg limit on nic, & the exclusion on WTA. It's not based on anything other than the group's bias...nothing else.

I'm not at all against a trade group of this type. There really does need to be a group that represents the interest of the manufactures/venders that don't sell pre-filled carts and the like. The question is if this is the group to do it, or at least if these are the personalities to do it.

 

[hittman]

I am a little confused as I keep hearing people talk about wta as an additive. Wta stands for whole tobacco alkaloids. I was one of the first ones to test wta that Dvap made before it was sold to the public. I am not a chemist but have asked many questions of Dvap. The way I understand it is that wta is the full spectrum of alkaloids that naturally occur in tobacco. The way I think of it is not that it is added but instead that its not left out like it is in regular liquids that contain only one alkaloid being nicotine although nicotine has the highest concentration of the alkaloids in tobacco.