American E-Liquid Manufacturers' Standards Association launches

[paddymx]

I think this thing needs its own sub forum or else it will be bogged down by the shear volume of posts.

 

[Ivisi]

The idea of traceability, namely...given every bottle I sell is mixed to order, NIST-traceable equipment doesn't come into play...generally, everything's measured with a syringe.

That's a scapegoat. Even mixing a bottle at a time, there's a way to document the source of your nicotine and your flavorings so that, if there is a problem down the line, you can account for where everything came from. Sure, it adds a couple of minutes to your mixing time, but isn't it worth it to be able to say with certainty where those ingredients came from at that moment in time the bottle was mixed?

 

[kristin]

From what I can tell, AEMSA is not like the vendor associations. Rather than being more industry agenda-focused, it seems to be more consumer-focused. They are meant to appeal to the type of consumer that wants very specific assurances when making purchasing decisions and to companies who would like a part of that market. (Think "Good Housekeeping Seal.") If you are a consumer who prefers to do your own research then you won't care if a company is a member of AEMSA (just like you won't care if a product has a Good Housekeeping Seal.) If you are a company who primarily sells to advanced vapers and/or already have a loyal following, you may not even find it necessary or advantageous to join, because new or nervous vapers are not your target market. If you sell WTA liquids, I highly doubt your target market is even going to care if you are AEMSA-certified or not. AEMSA-certified companies are meant to be appealing to a specific segment of the e-cigarette market. I highly doubt ECF will limit vendors to only AEMSA members, because that would be alienating a significant segment of its consumer members, as well.

The AEMSA seems, to me, to have a very different agenda compared to the "vendor associations" that seek to speak for the industry and want to have a hand in establishing government regulations based on their business models.

 

[Ivisi]

As many people know, I am for regulation. I often ask people -- it gets them thinking -- that when their juice vendors can't fit any more mixing in their tub, do they flush before mixing in "the bowl". It's a little extreme, but it does ask the question: Do you know how your juice is made?

This does look like a good start, and I agree that if we don't have standards, then standards will be made for us. But, I have questions on these regulations, like: Will flavoring be regulated? What are allowed preservatives in "Vitamins or Dietary supplements (other than for preservative purposes)"? What involvement do the AEMSA members have with any vendors, if any? What limits are being imposed on the AEMSA, if any? etc. These are just quick examples... but, is there someplace for us to write our concerns and questions?

AEMSA is a trade association, by definition it is primarily made up of vendors. Flavoring is currently listed in their regulations, but only as it pertains to needing to be "food grade" and not contain ingredients known to us at this time to be problematic for health like diacetyl. Since it has just been launched, I'm sure more information will be forthcoming, such as how to get more information from them and how to contact them with questions and such.

 

[Illustrated_Man]

That's a scapegoat. Even mixing a bottle at a time, there's a way to document the source of your nicotine and your flavorings so that, if there is a problem down the line, you can account for where everything came from. Sure, it adds a couple of minutes to your mixing time, but isn't it worth it to be able to say with certainty where those ingredients came from at that moment in time the bottle was mixed?

Hmmm, that's it, since I don't keep track of anything that comes in or goes out, nor do I use a set recipe for anything.

 

[AlmightyGod]

I've not purchased from any or the vendors listed. This won't change anything for me.

I do find it interesting that food coloring is allowed.

No WTA rules out any naturally extracted tobacco vapes. Looks like a lot of Flavor Art...

Big guys trying to shove out the little guys and people trying to limit choices -- what's new?

This worked out so well for UKVapers.....

I predict a huge fail. It's ok to sleep tonight.

 

[BuzzKill]

Hmmm, that's it, since I don't keep track of anything that comes in or goes out, nor do I use a set recipe for anything.

If that is what you are doing then you have a serious LIABILITY problem man !!!

 

[mudhill]

i really would like to know what is in my e-juice,though i am getting in to diy mixing,,,i still have to buy the mixing s,like unflavored nic-juice as well as flavorants as far as that goes,what kinda plastic bottles does it come in?
it will never end,what?,What?,what?,,,,...

 

[kristin]

Aside from links, I don't see CASAA as I would have expected. Are these organizations not linked in any way?

No, CASAA and AEMSA are not linked in any way. Of course, the two organizations will share some similar goals and CASAA has long hoped for an organization to establish some standards for themselves, but CASAA has never attempted to act in that capacity.

 

[thinkingaboutit]

If that is what you are doing then you have a serious LIABILITY problem man !!!

I'm assuming it was sarcasm. Not the right place or time for it, but sarcasm either way. At least I hope so.

No, CASAA and AEMSA are not linked in any way. Of course, the two organizations will share some similar goals and CASAA has long hoped for an organization to establish some standards for themselves, but CASAA has never attempted to act in that capacity.

Thank you for clarifying!

 

[paddymx]

From what I can tell, AEMSA is not like the vendor associations. Rather than being more industry agenda-focused, it seems to be more consumer-focused. They are meant to appeal to the type of consumer that wants very specific assurances when making purchasing decisions and to companies who would like a part of that market. (Think "Good Housekeeping Seal.") If you are a consumer who prefers to do your own research then you won't care if a company is a member of AEMSA (just like you won't care if a product has a Good Housekeeping Seal.) If you are a company who primarily sells to advanced vapers and/or already have a loyal following, you may not even find it necessary or advantageous to join, because new or nervous vapers are not your target market. If you sell WTA liquids, I highly doubt your target market is even going to care if you are AEMSA-certified or not. AEMSA-certified companies are meant to be appealing to a specific segment of the e-cigarette market. I highly doubt ECF will limit vendors to only AEMSA members, because that would be alienating a significant segment of its consumer members, as well.

The AEMSA seems, to me, to have a very different agenda compared to the "vendor associations" that seek to speak for the industry and want to have a hand in establishing government regulations based on their business models.

Sounds more like "UL" of vaping rather than "Good Housekeeping" to me.

 

[Illustrated_Man]

I had no idea sarcasm was a dead language.

If that is what you are doing then you have a serious LIABILITY problem man !!!

 

[Ivisi]

If that is what you are doing then you have a serious LIABILITY problem man !!!

Exactly. If you don't know the source of everything you're sending out if you have a problem with a customer at some point, then how in the world do you go about trying to figure out the cause of the problem?

Case in point: had a friend whose Dad was able to go to full time vaping because of my Pina Colada mix. One day calls me up, says something's off with the flavor of his Dad's latest bottle. Was able to trace back to the original nicotine source, flavoring source, and filler, and even still had some of the specific mix from his bottle on hand, and was able to determine the issue wasn't due to the mix but to external problems (namely, it had been left in a hot mailbox for an extended amount of time during shipping).

It took literally a minute to document the source ingredients, and another minute to number my mix batch and attribute the ingredients used to that batch. I was able to reference my original mix (I keep samples of each mix for an extended period of time) and even recreate a mix using the same ingredients, all to determine what happened to my friend's bottle.

It's seriously not that hard and not expensive (AT ALL) to do. And the benefits greatly outweighs any cons, especially if you're selling this stuff to other people.

 

[vsummer1]

Hmmm, that's it, since I don't keep track of anything that comes in or goes out, nor do I use a set recipe for anything.

I DIY my own stuff, and even I know my lot numbers for my nicotine, PG and VG (in fact when I got it, one had leaked all over and I quickly grabbed a sharpie and marked those bottles with numbers before they faded to oblivion). I have my receipts which show exactly where I procured my flavorings as well.

I also use a recipe to mix my nicotine base which I tested to ensure my nicotine level was accurate.

Every bottle I mix I label with the recipe, date mixed, PG/VG ratio and nicotine level. While I maintain a clean environment for my mixing, with the hand washing I must admit I don't use my BATHROOM sink to wash my hands and my KITCHEN sink to wash my bottles as this regulation is stating I do. I use my kitchen sink to wash everything, hands included both before and after. I use the strongest vodka I could find to rinse my bottles and equipment prior to mixing.

ALL THAT JUST FOR LIQUID I VAPE, and I do not sell.

And you are telling me you can't do the same by recording your purchases, and lot numbers? By doing a little paperwork so should something go wrong with what you sell you cannot even do a basic trace to ensure whatever caused the product to go awry cannot be traced to a certain lot or date? No recipes? You, my friend, are scary indeed.

 

[kristin]

Sounds more like "UL" of vaping rather than "Good Housekeeping" to me.

Well, I think most people could still get my point. Right now, though, it's still more of a Good Housekeeping than UL, because UL is pretty much an expected standard for most people, especially since the products they test are so well understood. Some day the AEMSA might reach that level, but I suspect there will be some adapting and changing for AEMSA as more scientific evidence becomes available.

 

[Illustrated_Man]

Well...I guess sarcasm isn't at all well-received in this group.

 

[AlmightyGod]

Why would you need to join an organization to know how to follow good business practices?

 

[A17kawboy]

Well...I guess sarcasm isn't at all well-received in this group.

Time and a place man. I thought this was a serious issue to you.

 

[Swigger14]

I support the idea but have a serious issue with the force behind it at this point. I'm not sure how much effort went into recruiting vendor members and soliciting input from them, but to launch with only 11 members (none of whom I've personally used) sends a signal to me of a lack of credibility off the bat. That being said, will withhold judgment as this develops.

The other things is one of the members sites has a 'community corner', with juices not made by them. Do they support and enforce those standards? It's fine to throw your name on this, but if there no teeth behind it it seems doomed to fail.

Like I said, though, I will monitor.

Just my $.02

 

[Illustrated_Man]

Why would you need to join an organization to know how to follow good business practices?

Good question...I know I can't spare the $5945/year it costs to be a member right now. Particularly when that far exceeds anything I make selling juice.