Another e-cig company merges with big tobacco
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Just a thought....
You can purchase analogs by the pack or lose and roll your own (RYO) by the pound.
Could the same theory also be applied to liquid vs carts?
We all know about BT playing a major roll in RYO this last year with the "RYO Machines" down the block.
I could be wrong....
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Absolutely, and realistically speaking that is probably the best scenario would could possibly hope for.
My personal opinion?
That it also occurs naturally in tobacco, it's not what causes smoking-related diseases, it's not listed as a carcinogen, various forms of ammonia are used in a lot of food processing/manufacturing (but ANTZ count on people to associate it with a powerful, pungent cleanser, like they used the image of anti freeze in e-cigarettes) and adding a bit more to tobacco cigarettes may actually help nicotine be absorbed more readily; so smokers would have to smoke less cigarettes and not be exposed to as many carcinogens in smoke.
Also, if the ANTZ get their way and tobacco companies are forced to reduce the level of nicotine in cigarettes, guess what is used to do that? So, will ammonia used in the manufacturing of cigarettes suddenly be perfectly safe as far as the ANTZ are concerned, because now it fits their agenda?
The SECRET and SOUL of Marlboro
Notice that the ONLY companies that Big Tobacco seems to be interested in are sellers of cig-a-likes like BLU and V2 and big, industrial-lab juice manufacturers like Johnsons Creek that push pre-filled cartos?
They are not rushing to snap up mod makers, or any of the THOUSANDS of mom-and-pop bottled juice makers.
The strategy is becoming clear. Big Tobacco is DEFINITELY interested in e-cigs. They KNOW it is an exploding growth market. And they know that the vast majority of current and future vapers are ONLY interested in small, easy-to-use, off-the-shelf gear.
The only advantage to Big Tobacco being in the vaping business is that they can afford big advertising--billboards, ads in national magazines, and TV ads. But ultimately, they not only don't care about the hobbyist side of the community, they see it as a direct threat to their monopolistic market hegemony.
They are NOT interested in the "hobbyist" side of vaping. They are NOT interested in the "boutique" juices. They are NOT interested in niche markets. And when push comes to shove, they will throw THOSE parts of the vaping community under the FDA bus without so much as a blink, because it will guarantee their own monopoly on the industry.
Mark my words...
They are not rushing to snap up mod makers, or any of the THOUSANDS of mom-and-pop bottled juice makers.
The strategy is becoming clear. Big Tobacco is DEFINITELY interested in e-cigs. They KNOW it is an exploding growth market. And they know that the vast majority of current and future vapers are ONLY interested in small, easy-to-use, off-the-shelf gear.
The only advantage to Big Tobacco being in the vaping business is that they can afford big advertising--billboards, ads in national magazines, and TV ads. But ultimately, they not only don't care about the hobbyist side of the community, they see it as a direct threat to their monopolistic market hegemony.
They are NOT interested in the "hobbyist" side of vaping. They are NOT interested in the "boutique" juices. They are NOT interested in niche markets. And when push comes to shove, they will throw THOSE parts of the vaping community under the FDA bus without so much as a blink, because it will guarantee their own monopoly on the industry.
Mark my words...
Sad days ahead do I trust the govt or bt no. Do they ever stay out of my life no. Will this be different maybe but more likely no.
Interesting...
I think it is pretty clear that the addition of ammonia helps nicotine be more quickly and easily absorbed.
So the question remains as to why it was added, and your link provides some interesting thoughts.
What do you think about the idea that making nicotine more quickly and easily absorbed can lead to it being more addictive?
And again, I'm not saying that is why they added more, or even that it makes SMOKING more addictive.
But I'm also not saying it isn't a discovery that bummed them out either.
And also let me clarify, I agree with you wholeheartedly, in general, on the idea that the evils of Big Tobacco are worthy of some questioning.
I don't like paying taxes but I would not mind paying a fair tax like sales tax or a fair federal tax on e cig stuff including liquid.
I don't really see myself walking around with my provari and a v2 cart of which they changed the recipe again but swear they didn't plus I would go thru at least 4 or 5 carts a day, they would like that. I would prefer to not buy my juice from BT I don't trust them they will try to water it down or add something to make us consume it faster. Which lets be honest we consume it pretty quick as it is.
I don't really see myself walking around with my provari and a v2 cart of which they changed the recipe again but swear they didn't plus I would go thru at least 4 or 5 carts a day, they would like that. I would prefer to not buy my juice from BT I don't trust them they will try to water it down or add something to make us consume it faster. Which lets be honest we consume it pretty quick as it is.
This is what I expect...
--They will work to make easy-to-use, off-the-shelf gear better and better
--They will work to eliminate free-roaming nicotine juice for refilling
--They will have mixed feelings about the APV market but in the end not really care about it
--They will work to eliminate refilling in general
--They will introduce their own Ego-style options at some point
What I wonder is how hard they will work to make their flavors and strengths more useful and appealing.
And how hard they will fight to keep Big Pharma and the ANTZ from keeping them from doing so.
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I can't help but see this as a bad thing. BT has been targeting cartridge-style cigalikes to slowly purchase that side of the industry before supporting any sweeping legislation that would most likely target nicotine juice itself, and therefore render our hobbyist industry obsolete. They have a long-term strategy and it is not to integrate their customers into the ecigarette industry, nor is it improving people's lives. It is about money, control, competition, and favorable legislation, as it always has been. BT thrives off of addiction, BP thrives off of human degradation, and the certain federal government agencies and officials thrive off of lobby funds. To say that the aforementioned facts are true, yet it is simultaneously true that BT will suddenly sprawl a wing of protection over the sovereign hobbyist side to the ecigarette industry would be illogical and imho, naive. Thus, I make sure I'm decently stocked and pay attention to CASAA's calls to action.
If having a niche market of high-end users can help push more people to get started using electronic cigarettes, it could help Big Tobacco.
We all know that first-time users want something that is as close to a cigarette as possible.
And if we can convince more people to become first time users, we could very well be helping Big Tobacco grow their market.
I hope this is true, and I further hope that if it is true that they can be made to understand this.
This might be good for juice and bad for hardware. I see BT trying to eek out the stuff they can't get control of like mods and gennies. And with that kind of cash, they might have some really good juice for us some day.
I think the idea that making cigarettes better nicotine delivery systems makes smoking more addictive can be answered by how nicotine affects vapers who used to smoke. You know that I'm not convinced that nicotine has as strong a role in making smoking habit-forming in the first place. At best, it could make it easier for new users to become dependent because the nicotine is so "strong." But, does it make it harder to quit once someone is already hooked on smoking? What happens with other drugs that are "more addictive" than another? Compare c-ke and cr-ck. Doesn't it take more and more of the chemical to satisfy the cravings with something that is "more addictive," with the addiction eventually taking 100% of the addict's attention?
Do we see this with smoking? Are smokers after the 1960's smoking more per day than smokers before? From reports I have seen, the exact opposite is true. While the number of smokers remains relatively constant over the past 20 years, the number of cigarettes sold has actually gone down. According to the FTC, the number of cigarettes sold or given away decreased by 10% from 2008-2009, while the smoking rate (ie. number of smokers) hasn't changed. So regular smokers are apparently smoking less. Additionally, smokers don't overdose chasing a nicotine high - it pretty much levels out to 1-2 packs a day for the majority of people. Even the ANTZ admit that "natural" or "organic" cigarettes (apparently ammonia-free) aren't any less harmful or addicting than cigarettes with additives. In fact, they insist the opposite may be true. A report from WHO states "Furthermore, cigarettes claimed to be without additives and made of “organic” tobacco have never been demonstrated to be less dangerous or addictive than conventional cigarettes. In fact, tests on some brands indicate higher levels of tar and nicotine delivery than those produced by conventional cigarettes in smoking-machine studies."
How can cigarettes with ammonia added be more addictive while at the same time cigarettes without ammonia added aren't any less addictive?
So, no, I haven't seen anywhere near sufficient evidence to support the theory that cigarettes with ammonia added are "more addictive" because of ammonia.
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So you don't have any problems with using carts only with prefilled 2mg & 4mg nic strength in tobacco flavor only?? You will be in the very small minority in thinking that's a good thing.
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We can only hope they are thinking this thing out. We all know what you have said makes perfect sense, though we dont know what goes on in their board rooms. We have no idea what they are thinking, but if all of BT follows suit along side Reynolds, we are in for a tough road ahead.
I hope you are right, also, but then there is the machiavellian side of the coin that could be just as possible: BT sticks with inferior products only, like Blu and supports regulation that limits vaping to low nic prefilled carts, tobacco flavor only. This allows them to corner the vaping market and provides a huge win-win for them in the following way: a small percentage of people will be able to stay off of analogs by using their inferior products of which they have a monopoly. The rest will end up going back to the other product they control - analogs. If you were a businessman isn't this the outcome you would want?
There are basically two business models they can choose from here...
The first is an effective and attractive nicotine delivery system (electronic cigarettes) that can be their future market.
Or they can go with an ineffective nicotine delivery system that can help keep their current market intact.
But there is a worldwide attack on their current market, with justification for that attack, and no real defense.
There is also a worldwide attack on the potential future market, but that attack has no justification and there is a realistic defense.
I know which one I would get behind if it were my money.
But there are many more factors at play here.
I think I know which way the wind is blowing, and I don't like it.
But I still have hope that they might be convinced to see things in a different light.
Good news. V2 are good cig-a-likes, much better than blu. And more lobby money can't hurt either.
Although I don't doubt the valid speculation that BT is primarily interested in off the shelf gear, but I doubt they would feel threatened by re-fill juice, or modding, those are less common ways to vape, and as options they provide upgradability, thus repeat sales (a simple VV ego style, and some fancified organic re-fills allow the bigger market to upscale, if the company offers that option).
I imagine first they will buy up all the really popular/good cig-a-likes. They they will go for some big flavour companies - and get a working PCC. So, V2, bloog, e-roll etc. Then they will develop a very basic ego VV, and include some fancy organic or specialist flavour refills, as well as standard cheaper carts. And then refine.
Theres no real market in high end vaping equipment, thats why they cost such absurd prices. All you want for profit is good cig-a-like/pcc/carto combos (with optional high-end flavours in liquid as alternatives to the carts), and a med-level ego VV also with boutique style liquid refills.
I am curious to see where it all goes, but I think smokeless image's product line might be a good example of where things are heading with BT. The aspect I am curious about is the juice and the innovation. Will we see WTA, linalool, other safe additives? Organic flavours? Better Mah in the battery tech for cig-a-likes?
Something id be curious to see is a "VV puff", a puff strength measuring variable voltage, that controls voltage based on how hard you puff on a cig-a-like auto, or ego sized auto, giving a bigger hit, if you draw harder. This would, if viable, really push the experience to be more similar to smoking. As is, if you want "more" you have to drag for longer. It would be more intuitive to get a slight peak in the wattage/heat if you draw harder, so it works like a stinky.
Also the PCC/battery combo is one that could use further innovation. Getting two fully assembled e-cigs, 2 cartos and the recharging battery insight into a light or easily pocketable size that also looks cool, is a challenge. That balances with the size/weight issues of the battery itself. In many aspects theres alot of room for further innovation..
Although I don't doubt the valid speculation that BT is primarily interested in off the shelf gear, but I doubt they would feel threatened by re-fill juice, or modding, those are less common ways to vape, and as options they provide upgradability, thus repeat sales (a simple VV ego style, and some fancified organic re-fills allow the bigger market to upscale, if the company offers that option).
I imagine first they will buy up all the really popular/good cig-a-likes. They they will go for some big flavour companies - and get a working PCC. So, V2, bloog, e-roll etc. Then they will develop a very basic ego VV, and include some fancy organic or specialist flavour refills, as well as standard cheaper carts. And then refine.
Theres no real market in high end vaping equipment, thats why they cost such absurd prices. All you want for profit is good cig-a-like/pcc/carto combos (with optional high-end flavours in liquid as alternatives to the carts), and a med-level ego VV also with boutique style liquid refills.
I am curious to see where it all goes, but I think smokeless image's product line might be a good example of where things are heading with BT. The aspect I am curious about is the juice and the innovation. Will we see WTA, linalool, other safe additives? Organic flavours? Better Mah in the battery tech for cig-a-likes?
Something id be curious to see is a "VV puff", a puff strength measuring variable voltage, that controls voltage based on how hard you puff on a cig-a-like auto, or ego sized auto, giving a bigger hit, if you draw harder. This would, if viable, really push the experience to be more similar to smoking. As is, if you want "more" you have to drag for longer. It would be more intuitive to get a slight peak in the wattage/heat if you draw harder, so it works like a stinky.
Also the PCC/battery combo is one that could use further innovation. Getting two fully assembled e-cigs, 2 cartos and the recharging battery insight into a light or easily pocketable size that also looks cool, is a challenge. That balances with the size/weight issues of the battery itself. In many aspects theres alot of room for further innovation..
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It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. But just to hedge my bets, I'm already looking into alternatives, such as these:
Atmos Vaporizers - Vaporizers | Vape World
While I do enjoy vaping what we have now a great deal, my long term goal is to wean myself off nicotine completely anyway, so something like ^^those herbal vaporizers my be a viable, and even enjoyable option if a worst case scenario in our current vaping world unfolds. One thing is for sure, BT and BP will never see another red cent of my money, as I stated in another thread, and I will never go back to cigalikes and prefilled cartos. And while I'm on the subject, is anyone knowledgeable about the devices that are for sale in the link I posted? I'm really curious about them.
*Sigh* But it will be depressing if those thingamabobs stink like cigarettes do...
Atmos Vaporizers - Vaporizers | Vape World
While I do enjoy vaping what we have now a great deal, my long term goal is to wean myself off nicotine completely anyway, so something like ^^those herbal vaporizers my be a viable, and even enjoyable option if a worst case scenario in our current vaping world unfolds. One thing is for sure, BT and BP will never see another red cent of my money, as I stated in another thread, and I will never go back to cigalikes and prefilled cartos. And while I'm on the subject, is anyone knowledgeable about the devices that are for sale in the link I posted? I'm really curious about them.
*Sigh* But it will be depressing if those thingamabobs stink like cigarettes do...
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