FDA ANOTHER Petition for the FDA

[Tyrawr]

In all due fairness, I have to say that his response was actually somewhat decent and not at all us v. them as they could have made it. I don't like regulation as much as the next tea partier. but we all knew regs were impossible to avoid entirely and the best thing we can do is be firm but play nice..we need to vigilant but not vigilantes

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

It definitely isn't as awful as it could be. There are some things that I agree with; there are some good ideas. There are things I am very concerned about too. I don't think our very best interests are served as the proposal stands. However, I agree. Regulation(etc.) will always come, until man learns to govern himself again. We have a lot of work to do. Let's stay vigilant, and constructively endeavor to make sure all of our needs are met. This is not all doom-y. Much worse things happened this week. We still have a really large and relatively open and powerful workspace with this one. Don't panic!

 

[StefanDidak]

Oh My... *sigh* (total silence in utter speechless disappointment).

Did you even *care* to read any of the stuff us somewhat more serious folks have been saying?

 

[AndriaD]

I've read *some* of it; not all, but enough to more or less follow along. My feelings on it are divided; there is merit in presenting only well-thought out "pieces" for public viewing; but there is also merit in the "strength in numbers" idea -- we are vapers, we will not be ignored. I believe it's true that this was far less awful than it could have been, but I also feel a strong sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop -- this was more or less as far as they could go, with what little they actually KNOW about e-cigs, but they acknowledged that and reserved the right to make *further* regulations, and that troubles me, as it's simply an unknown -- will they? could they? will they not? COULD THEY NOT? I'm not trustful at all, where the gov't is concerned, so while I don't think there's currently any need to panic, I agree wholeheartedly that we all need to be a bit more active where it counts, with our MONEY to support CASAA and even this forum -- I'm a webmaster myself, I know that running a top-grade website is very, very far from free, and can any of us really argue that this forum isn't helpful in the extreme to new vapers of nearly every stripe?

Anyway. I Facebook and Tweet things that appear about vaping, and others political causes, with which I agree. If I don't agree, I don't spread it around. I believe that's the entire point of social media, and this is absolutely a social problem, as smoking has been a public, social problem for many years, and now there is finally a way to triumph over it, and they want to block that in ANY way? That just cannot be tolerated by ANY right-thinking person.

Andria

 

[aikanae1]

From my understanding, the president can't veto FDA regulations.

My primary objection to FDA regulation is that they are ill-equiped to handle it. They have had 3,000 applications waiting for 5 years and only 4 have been approved - for rolling papers. WTH are they going to do with hundreds of thousands for devices, tanks, atty's, eliquids? I don't see anything in the budget to expand the agency to bring it up to capacity.

The FDA has also placed their focus on devices that are not currently being used, mainly plastic looking cigarettes when most vapers are using things made out of metal and glass with adjustable electronics. The FDA also seems to be unaware of their own research and approvals, specifically approving PG for inhalation and instead, the FDA is claiming "it's anti-freeze" (per their own Facebook page 24 hours ago).

I believe the FDA has demonstrated that they are not competent to handle over sight of the electronic vaping industry.

 

[AndriaD]

Would you trust someone to inform you about things, educate you about matters, if all you see is them throwing feces and making noise and running around like wild animals? If you would you are one of a tiny minority. If you would never trust someone like that you can probably start to make an attempt at understanding just how incredibly HARMFUL this idiotic petition is.

That's pretty much all I ever see about 99% of humanity doing, so I just figured it was the norm. I got tired of trying to inform the world of how much smarter I am than everyone else, because what difference does it really make? I can't convince the world that I ought to be in charge, so I pretty much have to just shuffle along with "the herd," like it or not. So I watch Jeopardy every night and yell out correct answers about 80% of the time, and I am content. Mostly. Of course, there are many books with which I may distract myself from the antics of "the herd," but just lately I've been a little too busy quitting smoking and trying to learn a whole new discipline of art and science, called "vaping," to read many books.

If you want a better petition, write one. Offering criticism and no alternative is nothing but more noise.

Andria

 

[StefanDidak]

I'm glad that you are here and awake

Thanks! I will try and stay awake some longer but I suspect this is going to be a mostly resting weekend... or, well, that's the plan. It won't actually be one, I'm sure. Call it a premonition.

What is alarming to me (in all arenas) is just how much most people think that they "know", and how often people confuse their emotions and beliefs surrounding themselves with knowledge or wisdom, especially concerning things outside of themselves. Pseudo-advocacy is rampant in many of our cultures today. It's alarming how many people think that they have done their "duty", serving on the front line, by signing an online petition and posting links on facebook and twitter. Then, feeling good about their hard work, they order some more innokin products and put in a juice order. What if we all spent one week's (vaping/etc.) budget contributing to CASAA (etc.), and spent our shopping and preaching time actually working at being responsible and active advocates and citizens. This is not exclusive to vaping, and I love all of the energy and enthusiasm of the community as a whole. However, many of these actions and ideas, while definitely well-meaning, are very poorly guided, educated, and executed.

I completely agree. Though I must be honest and say that this whole situation with the petition, more so the people rushing to sign it and against better judgement of many others, including CASAA itself, does not inspire me with much confidence in my fellow vapers. The level of complete apathy against sense is frightening.

I am starting to think we should make a statement (well CASAA already did for us so why repeat it ourselves since it's pretty much on par with what we've been trying to tell people) and leave it at that because trying to convinces the metaphorical apes to stop throwing feces around does not seem to be having any effect. These unguided projectiles probably won't allow themselves to be guided in any way to begin with unless it's blind rage and something that allows them to turn off their minds and just go be part of the noise generator.

Too many times in the past 24 hours I've heard vapers tell me "then you do something" and "why hasn't CASAA put up the petition yet because it's already been two days". Which all by itself shows you the level of intellectual comprehension of these vapers; the notion that what is needed is a petition and that CASAA has failed us for not having one up yet. *sigh* Glad I'm writing this to someone who will actually understand what I mean without having to explain why that level of behavior and "thought" (is it really sentient thought patterns at work there?) is appalling.

These issues have always plagued human systems and growth. Look at our history, reflect on your own experience, and think about it for a second. There are a lot of serious, matured, compassionate deep-thinkers all over the place. It's such an exciting time, because lots of people are remembering their being-ness, and our interconnectedness. The "high-level" human count, in my experience and reality, is definitely increasing. But this type of person, in this system, has always been the minority.

I have seen that it is possible to get more people involved in things and guided but it's always a disproportional effort that's required. Organizing and coordinating large groups of people is extremely difficult in most situations. Heck, even doing that with small groups is usually quite a challenge!

I'm relatively new to the forum and community as well

I'm mostly new to ECF. Not sure what took me so long to get here even though I've known of the existence. I guess being too busy in other places meant there wasn't much room for one more. But as other places have started deteriorating into more trolls and spam and just generally nasty people who really have no direction as to their actions I figured I'd give ECF a look. Also because there's a lot of people here I know from other places so it's not entirely like stepping into wild new uncharted territory.
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[JD4x4]

So, let me see if I understand this. You're saying that this is about showing how many people without a clue you can get to sign a petition that most probably didn't even read and if they did possibly didn't understand because the wording and content of the petition is irrelevant?

Well, if the goal is to just get people to sign to that and send a signal saying "this is how many uneducated vapers we got to go along" then I'd say it's going fairly well. In the meantime I'm sure it will help our opposition greatly to show this in combination with their other allegations of how vapers "are ignorant" about our e-liquid and everything else. All they need to do is hold up that petition and the numbers and say "you would trust these ignorant people on the subject of ecigs?". And they'd have a damn good point.

If I were on the strategy and marketing team for an ANTZ related organization I'd put up a petition just like that to poison the well. Especially if it shows a large number of vapers being more ignorant than those who are trying to oppose it.

The level of idiocy reminds me of the movie, Idiocracy.

I guess you failed to digest what I said. Perhaps I'm just not eloquent enough either, but imo it doesn't matter.

Btw, ANTZ will hold up anything and call it ignorant if it goes against their agenda, except anything by Stan Glantz & Co., or the WHO. Numbers get attention, both good and bad. But they get attention. Maybe it's time non-smokers knew just how many upset ignorant cretans there are. A bit like attack of the Zombies. Or riots.

 

[JD4x4]

Well, I'm certainly not going to avoid signing a petition because someone is worried that I'm not smart enough to sign it as well as post a reasoned and succinct response to the FDA.

I'll get back to the trailer park now so as not to be a distraction.

 

[devilchasnme]

This is to all you high-falootin, ivory-tower intellectuals, vapin your gourmet juice in thousand dollar mechanicals, looking down on all us common folk with our egos who signed that petition:

I signed it and it has value.

That petition is directed to the President - a politician. If I call his office and say "i don't like that thar FDA gettin' between me and my ejuice." That carries weight - to a politician - because I'm a voter. That's what's important to them.

That's what that petition is for.

I spent about a decade working with state legislators (a few federal) doing research, writing their position papers, drafting arguments, checking their facts, closely involved in committee hearings, floor fights, all that stuff. Some of my friends have spent upwards of four decades and have been so much more deeply involved. We've all worked with actual state and federal legislators, lawyers, and lobbyists on both sides. Most of the legislators I've spoken to are good and thoughtful people - a few, not so much. But I can tell you, the common thread is, they listen to voters. They may disagree and vote the other way, but they pay attention. And if you come at them with hundred dollar words and a bunch of technical jargon, they are gonna go glassy-eyed.

They don't have time to read, listen and think on all that. They've got people and concerns coming at them from every direction. If any of them looks at the actual FDA stuff or the CASAA response or any of that, I'd be surprised. They're gonna hand all that gibberish off to an aide who's gonna come back with a couple paragraphs summarizing that whole mess.

So, realize that petition is meant for a specific audience, a politican, who, when all is said and done, may just lick his finger and stick it in the air to see which way the wind blows.

Now if you're writing something going to the FDA, then you wait for CASAA and you do additional research and you put something together that will make a difference on that front. I hope you do. And if I can read through that and help, I will.

The petition doesn't hurt you, it helps you.

 

[JD4x4]

Spot on devilchasnme.
I've lived in the Maryland suburbs of D.C. for 62 years and it's been an eye opener.
(oops .. stepped out of the trailer. Won't happen agin, dang it.)

 

[JD4x4]

StefanD- All I'm really saying is that in my 62 years of living here in D.C., I've come to realize which parts of the Federal bureaucracy control which, and I have a sense of who actually makes things work after someone else tells them what to work on. devilchasnme gives an excellent view of what really happens.

The methods and vernacular for grabbing the attention of some isn't the same that's used when dealing with others. It's a perspective that's often hard to understand if you haven't been immersed in it for any length of time, or are distant from the mechanics of it. Civics class is theoretical, not reality I'm afraid.

 

[Myrany]

Guys all public bickering does is show the opposition what cracks to try to widen to split us.

Sign it or do not sign it as your conscience dictates.

 

[StefanDidak]

The methods and vernacular for grabbing the attention of some isn't the same that's used when dealing with others.

Then this country has much bigger fish to fry. But all this is getting way off the point. To summarize, what I have now been told by a few people who were in favor of the petition in the form it was in, is that to grab the attention of the people as described to me requires what a few refer to as behaving like a bunch of zombies and rioting and that the actual content and direction of the message doesn't matter as long as there are enough numbers "doing something". Please forgive me for holding a belief in which none of that makes any sense or makes any of it look remotely serious. I'm not being sarcastic here, that really is the short summary.

 

[Katya]

Then this country has much bigger fish to fry. But all this is getting way off the point. To summarize, what I have now been told by a few people who were in favor of the petition in the form it was in, is that to grab the attention of the people as described to me requires what a few refer to as behaving like a bunch of zombies and rioting and that the actual content and direction of the message doesn't matter as long as there are enough numbers "doing something". Please forgive me for holding a belief in which none of that makes any sense or makes any of it look remotely serious. I'm not being sarcastic here, that really is the short summary.

Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it.

I believe that everyone has a right to start a petition--good or bad--when he/she feels strongly about something. Other people can sign it if they agree, not sign it if they don't, or start their own petition.

Vox populi, vox Dei.

Vape on!

 

[Katya]

they FINALLY, in an email that i received within the past hour, responded to the last whitehouse.gov petition. The one that we got 25K signatures for a year or so ago. The official response was signed by Mitch Zeller of the FDA. grrr.

I just received the same email, CES.

My guess is that all 25K 36,000 of us did. It doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy about the efficacy of the petition process.

Yup! Ditto!

Heya Bovinia!

 

[retired1]

Closing this.

Some of you need to bone up on the rules.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/ecf-forum-rules/51178-forum-rules.html