FDA Any other News on Today's Court Arguments?

[sofarsogood]

Big tobacco definitely has a dog in the race, but the big player pushing to kill vaping is Big Pharma. They are the Puppet Master pulling the strings in the FDA.

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I believe the tobaco and drug companies are not the villians this time. It's obvious now that the tobacco companys are taking the position that vaping is a safer product and should be allowed to grow and flourish and they want to be allowed to compete along with all the other companies. The drug companies see products come and go all the time. Everybody dies of something so they get their pound of flesh in the end.

The big BIG losers if vaping takes over are governments and the institutions they fund. Tobacco is a $1 trillion a year business. Most of that money goes for taxes. The people screaming the loudest about ecigs are the ones whose funding is likely to decline the most. The tobacco and drug companies can invest in other things. Governments have no easy recourse for thier monster sized share of the pot.

I went from $3,000 a year for cigarettes to $30 a year for DIY liquid. OUCH!!!

 

[r055co]

I believe the tobaco and drug companies are not the villians this time. It's obvious now that the tobacco companys are taking the position that vaping is a safer product and should be allowed to grow and flourish and they want to be allowed to compete along with all the other companies. The drug companies see products come and go all the time. Everybody dies of something so they get their pound of flesh in the end.

The big BIG losers if vaping takes over are governments and the institutions they fund. Tobacco is a $1 trillion a year business. Most of that money goes for taxes. The people screaming the loudest about ecigs are the ones whose funding is likely to decline the most. The tobacco and drug companies can invest in other things. Governments have no easy recourse for thier monster sized share of the pot.

I went from $3,000 a year for cigarettes to $30 a year for DIY liquid. OUCH!!!

Don't fool yourself, the major force is Big Pharma. What taxes are brought in is a pimple on the .... of what Big Pharma brings in caused by Tobacco.

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[zoiDman]

I believe the tobaco and drug companies are not the villians this time. It's obvious now that the tobacco companys are taking the position that vaping is a safer product and should be allowed to grow and flourish and they want to be allowed to compete along with all the other companies. ...

 

[sofarsogood]

Don't fool yourself, the major force is Big Pharma. What taxes are brought in is a pimple on the .... of what Big Pharma brings in caused by Tobacco.

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In the US 56% of tobacco revenues goes for taxes. It's a higher percent in most of the larger nations. Tobacco taxes are very important revenues for nearly all nations. Governments can pull strings that privste businesses can't. They are protecting their money. Tobacco and drug companies can invest in other things.

 

[DC2]

I believe the tobaco and drug companies are not the villians this time. It's obvious now that the tobacco companys are taking the position that vaping is a safer product and should be allowed to grow and flourish and they want to be allowed to compete along with all the other companies. The drug companies see products come and go all the time. Everybody dies of something so they get their pound of flesh in the end.

The big BIG losers if vaping takes over are governments and the institutions they fund. Tobacco is a $1 trillion a year business. Most of that money goes for taxes. The people screaming the loudest about ecigs are the ones whose funding is likely to decline the most. The tobacco and drug companies can invest in other things. Governments have no easy recourse for thier monster sized share of the pot.

I went from $3,000 a year for cigarettes to $30 a year for DIY liquid. OUCH!!!

It seems quite possible that our primary antagonist these days is government.
Mostly due to tax revenue, and the sudden loss of same.

But government efforts against us also work to appease The Village at the same time.
And that's always a bonus in the mind of a politician.

But never forget that Big Pharma started the ball rolling against us long ago.

And they sicked their puppets on us before the FDA was even on the radar.
And WAY before the CDC jumped on board to help out.

The worst part is that the puppets work for both Big Pharma AND Big Government.
So they didn't skip a beat when adding a new paymaster to the equation.

They just got stronger.

The puppets, for those that don't know, are the "non-profit" or "health" organizations...

• American Lung Assciation
• American Heart Association
• American Cancer Society
• Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids
• American Association of Pediatricians
• American Legacy Foundation
• Colleges and Universities like UCSF and Stanton Glantz

To name but a few.

 

[sofarsogood]

It seems quite possible that our primary antagonist these days is government.
Mostly due to tax revenue, and the sudden loss of same.

But government efforts against us also work to appease The Village at the same time.
And that's always a bonus in the mind of a politician.

But never forget that Big Pharma started the ball rolling against us long ago.

And they sicked their puppets on us before the FDA was even on the radar.
And WAY before the CDC jumped on board to help out.

The worst part is that the puppets work for both Big Pharma AND Big Government.
So they didn't skip a beat when adding a new paymaster to the equation.

They just got stronger.

The puppets, for those that don't know, are the "non-profit" or "health" organizations...

• American Lung Assciation
• American Heart Association
• American Cancer Society
• Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids
• American Association of Pediatricians
• American Legacy Foundation
• Colleges and Universities like UCSF and Stanton Glantz

To name but a few.

Your list is organizations that will be first on the chopping block as tobacco tax revenues decline. For a semester, in student days, I worked for a University on an ad hoc group of 4 students (we were paid) called the "President's Special Task Force" to prepare the President of the school to pitch for state funding, a very interesting job. Our work space was literally in an (ivory) tower in the administration building. We were visited by a lot of big shots before it was over and we had the ear of most of them. Pretty cool for us kids. Tax supported institutions pay a lot of attention to their funding sources. They are keenly interested in tax collections, appropriations and everything remotely related. I promise they know what they are doing and why they are doing it.

P.S. a few days into the project I came up with a graphic that perfectly illustrated what the school administration want to use as their primary talking point. We could have gone back to class right then but we worked on for the rest of the semester. Those were the days of photo copiers and magic markers. It took me a few days of revisions to produce the graphic. Today one of the administrators could have done it on his PC in a few hours.

 

[seminolewind]

Big Tobacco definitely has a dog in the race, but the big player pushing to kill Vaping is Big Pharma. They are the Puppet Master pulling the strings in the FDA.

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Ya think? I would think BT stands to lose a whole lot more money than BP.

 

[r055co]

Ya think? I would think BT stands to lose a whole lot more money than BP.

Lot more money in treating the sick and dying than peddling cigarettes

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[cats5365]

Ya think? I would think BT stands to lose a whole lot more money than BP.

If all of the vape products have to go back to 2007 or PMTA, BT still has plenty of product they can sell and can blow off their little cigalikes since there won't be any competition if nothing passes PMTA. They can try PMTA, but they don't have to if they want to keep making money. They have the money and time that the vape shops and companies don't really have.

BP can keep selling their usual drugs for pretending to stop smoking or for treating diseases.

BG and the charities can keep raking in their taxes and MSA money if people keep smoking.

 

[Endor]

It seems quite possible that our primary antagonist these days is government.
Mostly due to tax revenue, and the sudden loss of same.

But government efforts against us also work to appease The Village at the same time.
And that's always a bonus in the mind of a politician.

But never forget that Big Pharma started the ball rolling against us long ago.

And they sicked their puppets on us before the FDA was even on the radar.
And WAY before the CDC jumped on board to help out.

The worst part is that the puppets work for both Big Pharma AND Big Government.
So they didn't skip a beat when adding a new paymaster to the equation.

They just got stronger.

The puppets, for those that don't know, are the "non-profit" or "health" organizations...

• American Lung Assciation
• American Heart Association
• American Cancer Society
• Campaign for Tobacco Free Kids
• American Association of Pediatricians
• American Legacy Foundation
• Colleges and Universities like UCSF and Stanton Glantz

To name but a few.

DC2, as usual, put together a great summary of the situation. There are many groups involved in this effort, not the least of which is governments. Although tobacco taxes are a concern, I contend their greater concern is the MSA money. Worse, some states securitized their future MSA earnings with tobacco bonds, and those bonds need to be paid off with MSA money.... if that dries up, uh-oh.

If you look at that carefully, the states that securitized those future payments are the ones most against vaping. Case in point: California, who securitized most of the MSA money way back when, has engaged in active anti-vaping propaganda with their Stop Blowing Smoke campaign (which includes expensive primetime TV commercial buys) and a legislature that plays right along.

Remember that the groups DC2 lists get their funding from these revenue streams, hence they have a vested interest in making sure the tobacco taxes and MSA funds keep flowing. Otherwise Glantz would have to go back to mechanical engineering instead of his cushy job at UCSF, where all he has to do is write the occasional paper against vaping and tobacco use in movies, instead of actually producing something.

 

[jpasint]

Lot more money in treating the sick and dying than peddling cigarettes

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For sure.

 

[seminolewind]

Also, if people live longer, they'll get SS and Medicare longer. Talk about pricey to BG!

Interesting article
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/95a...5b66eee9d/ss_philip-morris-international.html

 

[OldBatty]

Lot more money in treating the sick and dying than peddling cigarettes

Total dollars BP for sure, percentage of revenue I think BT is the bigger looser. But they are capitalists and are expected to lie for financial gain. It is the 'charities' that can never be forgiven!

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Also, if people live longer, they'll get SS and Medicare longer.

I read a statement along these lines, on the E-Cigarette Politics site I think.

 

[seminolewind]

Excellent article!!!!!!!!

 

[pennysmalls]

“Is there anything else in the universe that anyone would do with a vaping device than put a liquid in it and vape with it?” Judge Jackson asked.

Does she not understand that mods also make great paper weights and in some cases self defense weapons?

All joking aside, I really want to see her tackle the definition of tobacco product. Hopefully that will be coming soon. This judge needs to tread very carefully, this is a can of worms that shouldn't be looked at let alone opened. If we lose this I can see this going haywire, getting abused at every turn possible by those out to make a buck or by those trying to put some competition out of business. This could lead to all kinds of scary.

 

[Enigma32]

The most ridiculous part is that the deeming regulations actually require that eliquid that contains NO nicotine be labeled differently:

"This product is made from tobacco."

This, even though PG, VG, and the flavorings used have no association with tobacco at all. This alone shows the craziness.

As far as what was posted earlier about the discussions at the hearing, I agree that it doesn't look good. But, in some ways it makes sense... it is extremely difficult to get regulations overturned, as the FDA is following statue.

This is why, as a country, we need to rail against legislatures who pass these overarching laws and then hand off the heavy-lifting to an unelected, regulatory body to implement. This happens all the time, and is done to both allow these legislators to keep their hands clean, and to make it much more difficult for the common folk to fight the onslaught of insane regulations that precipitate from the statues.

That is not true. Please stop parroting this misinformation. That warning applies to "covered tobacco products" which do not contain nicotine. AKA directly derived from tobacco, with the nicotine removed, such as 0nic cigarettes. 0nic eliquid neither contains nicotine nor is derived from tobacco, thus is not a "covered tobacco product" and the warning does not apply. It would only be regulated as a component, if it is reasonably assumed to have nicotine added to it.

 

[DC2]

That is not true. Please stop parroting this misinformation. That warning applies to "covered tobacco products" which do not contain nicotine. AKA directly derived from tobacco, with the nicotine removed, such as 0nic cigarettes. 0nic eliquid neither contains nicotine nor is derived from tobacco, thus is not a "covered tobacco product" and the warning does not apply. It would only be regulated as a component, if it is reasonably assumed to have nicotine added to it.

So you're saying they aren't going to go down the "intended use" path?

 

[Lessifer]

So you're saying they aren't going to go down the "intended use" path?

I believe he's only talking about the "made from tobacco" warning label, and it's my reading of it too. That warning applies to tobacco products, that do not contain nicotine, not tobacco product components. The rest of the regulations, like the PMTA's, do apply to tobacco product components.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

So is a closed system cigalike with 0 nic a tobacco product? If not, none of the regulations apply to it since it's not a component or accessory either. If so it has to have a label saying it's made from tobacco?