Anyone got scientific explaination for Steeping?
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Can anyone give me a scientific explanation for better flavors when steeping/aging e-liquids?
And is there a way to speed up the process besides just leaving the top off? like put in a paint shaker or something
OK - it is simple - nicotine has a taste - some call t bitter - some say it is peppery - in the small concentration you use for vaping - it is fairly mild.
Nicotine reacts with O2(oxygen) to form a yellow-orange product, cotamine. This is the first metabolite of nic in the body, and it is ok in juices - it is not harmful and it does not taste bad. The problem is that it is no longer nicotine. So if you want you juice to have its full potency - you will keep it tightly covered and let as little oxygen in as possible.
Sorry kushka, I beg to differ. It's more than just the nicotine itself. Not harmful? What kind of nicotine do you vape? Because the last time I checked nicotine is LETHAL above 60mg, let alone to go and taste on it's own. Maybe you might be talking about pre-mixed nicotine @ around 24mg or lower made from 100% VG. I guess all of the companies who produce 1,000's of Liters of this stuff are wrong when they tell people it's best to let steep for the flavors to emulsify, but hey, who's paying attention?
And oxygen reacts with more than just the nicotine in it. Jump onto wiki and check for yourself. What are you referring to when you say "the problem is that it's no longer nicotine"?? because regardless if you mix it with PG, VG, PGA, and so on if you're using nicotine it stays nicotine unless you dilute it with something then it drops in mg. It's not going to lose it's potency if you leave the top off for a few hours or days, TRUST me on that. I've gotten more of a nic buzz steeping stuff, not to mention a better TH letting things steep. I'm not saying go leave the lid off for 2 weeks, but it does help if you allow oxygen to hit DIY mixes for a few hours, then close it up and let it do it's thing, but again I'm not a scientist, but I will go by what I've been learning from trial and error doing my own research and DIY juices. Maybe you were referring to the nicotine itself, idk.
I just know they were asking the scientific reasoning of what causes it to steep and taste better with time or any ways to make it steep faster. It's more than just the nicotine.
I'd also like to note that I do have 48mg nic and it's more than just fairly mild.
And oxygen reacts with more than just the nicotine in it. Jump onto wiki and check for yourself. What are you referring to when you say "the problem is that it's no longer nicotine"?? because regardless if you mix it with PG, VG, PGA, and so on if you're using nicotine it stays nicotine unless you dilute it with something then it drops in mg. It's not going to lose it's potency if you leave the top off for a few hours or days, TRUST me on that. I've gotten more of a nic buzz steeping stuff, not to mention a better TH letting things steep. I'm not saying go leave the lid off for 2 weeks, but it does help if you allow oxygen to hit DIY mixes for a few hours, then close it up and let it do it's thing, but again I'm not a scientist, but I will go by what I've been learning from trial and error doing my own research and DIY juices. Maybe you were referring to the nicotine itself, idk.
I just know they were asking the scientific reasoning of what causes it to steep and taste better with time or any ways to make it steep faster. It's more than just the nicotine.
I'd also like to note that I do have 48mg nic and it's more than just fairly mild.
Sorry kushka, I beg to differ. It's more than just the nicotine itself. Not harmful? What kind of nicotine do you vape? Because the last time I checked nicotine is LETHAL above 60mg, let alone to go and taste on it's own. Maybe you might be talking about pre-mixed nicotine @ around 24mg or lower made from 100% VG. I guess all of the companies who produce 1,000's of Liters of this stuff are wrong when they tell people it's best to let steep for the flavors to emulsify, but hey, who's paying attention?
And oxygen reacts with more than just the nicotine in it. Jump onto wiki and check for yourself. What are you referring to when you say "the problem is that it's no longer nicotine"?? because regardless if you mix it with PG, VG, PGA, and so on if you're using nicotine it stays nicotine unless you dilute it with something then it drops in mg. It's not going to lose it's potency if you leave the top off for a few hours or days, TRUST me on that. I've gotten more of a nic buzz steeping stuff, not to mention a better TH letting things steep. I'm not saying go leave the lid off for 2 weeks, but it does help if you allow oxygen to hit DIY mixes for a few hours, then close it up and let it do it's thing, but again I'm not a scientist, but I will go by what I've been learning from trial and error doing my own research and DIY juices. Maybe you were referring to the nicotine itself, idk.
I just know they were asking the scientific reasoning of what causes it to steep and taste better with time or any ways to make it steep faster. It's more than just the nicotine.
I'd also like to note that I do have 48mg nic and it's more than just fairly mild.
48mg/ml nic is mild as for as nic goes - it is less then 5% nicotine - the fact that if you drunk just 2ml of such it would kill you does not negate that fact. What I was saying was that the concentration of just 5% you might not be very aware of the peppery flavor of the nic itself.
I do not know what you are talking about either - you did not read or misunderstood my post - or chose not to understand -
I said that "Nicotine reacts with O2(oxygen) to form a yellow-orange product, cotinine. This is the first metabolite of nic in the body, and it is ok in juices - it is not harmful and it does not taste bad. The problem is that it is no longer nicotine. "
That is a true statement - I did not say there was no longer any nicotine in your personal little bottle of e-juice. I stated a scientific fact.
That nicotine degrades so quickly when exposed to light and air is the reason it is one of the very few pesticides that is approved for use in organic gardening - I use to be an organic gardener and we could spray our crops with nicotine killing droves of insects -and 24 hours later eat the crops and where able to have them certified organic because there is no nicotine left.
I said that the cotinine (which is the result of the reaction of nicotine and oxygen) was not harmful to have in your e-juice to reassure that the the yellowed nic juice you had in your bottle did not mean that it had spoiled or gone bad - there is no reason to throw it out when this happens - it just means that some of the nicotine has reacted with oxygen - and it is no longer nicotine. I did not say that there was no nicotine left in your bottle - just that if some of the nic has undergone oxidation - there is less then there was before it is exposed to oxygen.
Now - it is also true that O2 is only slightly soluble in PG or VG, and so there is very little oxygen in an unopened bottle - so as long as the bottle is unopened the nic should remain potent. I have not read any studies about the rate of oxidation that occurs in an open bottle when it is suspended in pg/vg. Unlike in the open air - I have no idea how long it will take before all the nic will degrade. I have read no studies - but I do know that the yellowing of nic juice shows that is occurring. You seem to be saying something about the flavorings degrading - I am not sure of your point - are you saying that it must be other flavorings causing this change? If so then just put some opened unflavored nic in your window - you will see the color change even without any flavoring.
If you are saying that oxygen is changing the flavorings - that is true too - but the fact that it also changes flavors does not negate the fact that it changes nicotine into cotinine (that is why when they test people for nicotine use - they test for the presents of cotinine. The nic is gone - it degenerates quickly in the body - all they can test for is what nic turns into)
I do not trust you on the fact that you will not lose potency though - because you are wrong.
As I said - I do not know the rate of oxidation of say a 5% concentration of nicotine in a 10ml bottle with a 5mm opening left in a 70 degree room with little exposure to sunlight - but I do know it will happen -
But you know - you will probably be better off if you don't believe me - after all if you leave the cap off for a couple of days and are vaping a less potent mixture then you thought - you are really better off - so I will no longer argue with you about this - after all the quicker we call get down to 0 nic the better we all will be. So just go ahead and believe what you will -
And - PS - not that I would ever believe any company that are trying to sale a product - but I have never seen even the most illiterate spokesman for any e-juice company say leave the cap off when aging a flavor - have you? I have been reading these forums for months now - and I have often seen company owners or spokesman tell people to let it age when they complain about a rotten flavor - and cynic that I am have always interpret that to mean "I am going to tell you that it hasn't aged enough so you will believe I am not to blame for producing a bad flavored e-juice and stop complaining about me in public". But even those guys; who know no more about chemistry then the average high school graduate - have I ever heard say leave the cap off and even if they did - if they happened to know anything at all about chemistry - would never add "and if you do so I guarantee it will be as potent as the day you bought it".
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No need to get all snippy about something you can't scientifically explain either. Again, this post was about getting the FLAVORS to pop/steep, nothing about the rant you went on about nicotine alone.... when you can talk about it as a WHOLE and not just what nicotine does, then I'll converse with you rationally.
Do you know what steeping is? It's when you leave an UN-OPENED bottle of e-juice in a cool, dark place to get it's top flavor. I made a suggestion to try leaving the lid off for a few hours, again not WEEKS. and it does take nicotine longer to evap or begin to in PG or VG and is why I said taking the lid off for a few hours to help it steep won't hurt, because it won't. PERIOD. When people are talking letting it steep for a week, we talk about different ways we can maybe help it along it's way. Not lets mix it all in a bowl and let it set out. Anything liquid will evaporate if you do that.
Where did I EVER say a company said to let the lid set off? I said "I guess all of the companies who produce 1,000's of Liters of this stuff are wrong when they tell people it's best to let steep for the flavors to emulsify, but hey, who's paying attention?" And MANY have said let them steep, go read. I think you will see I'm correct when I say this. VENDORS section Also read some of the supplier websites about letting it set to get top flavor. Again, where did I mention leaving a lid off? I think you've managed to mis-read about 75% of my post. It's cool.
I've done these same tests with Glycerin (USP) only and flavoring and the same with Propylene Glycol and flavoring only, and still gotten the darkening process from a bit of flavors... these containing ZERO nic. So again back to my theory that steeping flavors together changes the compounds somehow causing it to get thicker and darker as it ages or steeps.
Some don't change color at all... even with nic in them. lid off or on. Apple, Melon, Champagne, Licorice... have some with lids on and some with lids off some are 3mL some are 6mL... going on 4 days and no change and they have 24mg - 48mg nic in them... hmmm. And then there's Espresso, Maple Syrup, RY4, Caramel which I've seen a DRASTIC change in (ALL DIY), in less than 24 hours. So back to theory of what causes the flavor and color to change... FLAVORING and what ingredients are in them. I'm sure nic plays a part as well, but the flavoring is what makes it steep better.
If ppl think steeping is going to make nicotine stonger it won't, only flavoring. I agree with leaving nicotine ONLY out that it will evap (but what DIYers have pure nic?)NOT when buying premixed (even 24mg nic - 48mg is considered premixed). Most people vape it before it loses potency. I've had my 1 bottle of 24mg nic for well since I started vaping and it STILL gives me a nic buzz if I vape it, so again I disagree with some of what you are saying.
Did you read the thread about the dude who has 2 year old Janty RY4 pre-mix? I was curious if after 2 years if it lost nic or flavor potency... which I'm sure it has to and get rancid to boot. But to say it would in a month, or even 6 mos from now is just asinine, let alone 1 - 2 weeks of steeping.
I'll keep DIYing the way that I do and enjoying the outcome.
Do you know what steeping is? It's when you leave an UN-OPENED bottle of e-juice in a cool, dark place to get it's top flavor. I made a suggestion to try leaving the lid off for a few hours, again not WEEKS. and it does take nicotine longer to evap or begin to in PG or VG and is why I said taking the lid off for a few hours to help it steep won't hurt, because it won't. PERIOD. When people are talking letting it steep for a week, we talk about different ways we can maybe help it along it's way. Not lets mix it all in a bowl and let it set out. Anything liquid will evaporate if you do that.
Where did I EVER say a company said to let the lid set off? I said "I guess all of the companies who produce 1,000's of Liters of this stuff are wrong when they tell people it's best to let steep for the flavors to emulsify, but hey, who's paying attention?" And MANY have said let them steep, go read. I think you will see I'm correct when I say this. VENDORS section
Also read some of the supplier websites about letting it set to get top flavor. Again, where did I mention leaving a lid off? I think you've managed to mis-read about 75% of my post. It's cool.I've done these same tests with Glycerin (USP) only and flavoring and the same with Propylene Glycol and flavoring only, and still gotten the darkening process from a bit of flavors... these containing ZERO nic. So again back to my theory that steeping flavors together changes the compounds somehow causing it to get thicker and darker as it ages or steeps.
Some don't change color at all... even with nic in them. lid off or on. Apple, Melon, Champagne, Licorice... have some with lids on and some with lids off some are 3mL some are 6mL... going on 4 days and no change and they have 24mg - 48mg nic in them... hmmm. And then there's Espresso, Maple Syrup, RY4, Caramel which I've seen a DRASTIC change in (ALL DIY), in less than 24 hours. So back to theory of what causes the flavor and color to change... FLAVORING and what ingredients are in them. I'm sure nic plays a part as well, but the flavoring is what makes it steep better.
If ppl think steeping is going to make nicotine stonger it won't, only flavoring. I agree with leaving nicotine ONLY out that it will evap (but what DIYers have pure nic?)NOT when buying premixed (even 24mg nic - 48mg is considered premixed). Most people vape it before it loses potency. I've had my 1 bottle of 24mg nic for well since I started vaping and it STILL gives me a nic buzz if I vape it, so again I disagree with some of what you are saying.
Did you read the thread about the dude who has 2 year old Janty RY4 pre-mix? I was curious if after 2 years if it lost nic or flavor potency... which I'm sure it has to and get rancid to boot. But to say it would in a month, or even 6 mos from now is just asinine, let alone 1 - 2 weeks of steeping.
I'll keep DIYing the way that I do and enjoying the outcome.
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Also if you go back to my 1st post about it being like Chili, Soups, Stews, etc... it will clerify what I'm saying about steeping.
Do you leave left overs in your fridge with the lid off? Didn't think so. As I said I suggested to try it with the lid off for a few hours, lidding it then letting it set... which I do.
Someone asked about making it steep FASTER and I suggested trying leaving the lid off longer. I never claimed to be a scientist or the 1 true word of steeping. But you seem quite smug with your KNOW ALL to DIYing, goodluck. As I said I'll stick to my research and what I've learned and has been proven thru bio-chemistry and science.
Anyone have a suggestion to a REAL Caramel flavor? Can either be pre-mixed or flavoring. Just looking for something REALISTIC. the 3 i've tried are pretty artificial tasting. Thanks!
Do you leave left overs in your fridge with the lid off? Didn't think so. As I said I suggested to try it with the lid off for a few hours, lidding it then letting it set... which I do.
Someone asked about making it steep FASTER and I suggested trying leaving the lid off longer. I never claimed to be a scientist or the 1 true word of steeping. But you seem quite smug with your KNOW ALL to DIYing, goodluck. As I said I'll stick to my research and what I've learned and has been proven thru bio-chemistry and science.
Anyone have a suggestion to a REAL Caramel flavor? Can either be pre-mixed or flavoring. Just looking for something REALISTIC. the 3 i've tried are pretty artificial tasting. Thanks!
I'm not a scientist just judging from personal experience. This helps when you order from anyone that mixes your juice after you order it, which is a good thing. Steeping allows the various ingredients to blend. I personally do leave mine open when I first get it for about 24 hrs. I also give them a vigorous shake for about 30 secs. during the steep period then open them up for a few minutes to allow the trapped air out. I find generally that a week is good, but the longer the better. The exception being not to use juice that's 2 years old. I "believe" that's the generally accepted max period.
Steeping allows the various ingredients to blend. I personally do leave mine open when I first get it for about 24 hrs. I also give them a vigorous shake for about 30 secs. during the steep period then open them up for a few minutes to allow the trapped air out. I find generally that a week is good, but the longer the better. The exception being not to use juice that's 2 years old. I "believe" that's the generally accepted max period.
I agree ab, and I wouldn't try juice, IMO older than about 18 mos (1.5yr), but some do. My limit would be prob 12 mos, just cuz.
Glad to hear you agree steeping makes juices better. I think most of us agree on that.
Glad to hear you agree steeping makes juices better. I think most of us agree on that.
I'm not a scientist just judging from personal experience. This helps when you order from anyone that mixes your juice after you order it, which is a good thing.
That seems pretty rigorous. I just let them sit for a week or two.
No need to get all snippy about something you can't scientifically explain either. Again, this post was about getting the FLAVORS to pop/steep, nothing about the rant you went on about nicotine alone.... when you can talk about it as a WHOLE and not just what nicotine does, then I'll converse with you rationally.
Do you know what steeping is? It's when you leave an UN-OPENED bottle of e-juice in a cool, dark place to get it's top flavor. I made a suggestion to try leaving the lid off for a few hours, again not WEEKS. and it does take nicotine longer to evap or begin to in PG or VG and is why I said taking the lid off for a few hours to help it steep won't hurt, because it won't. PERIOD. When people are talking letting it steep for a week, we talk about different ways we can maybe help it along it's way. Not lets mix it all in a bowl and let it set out. Anything liquid will evaporate if you do that.
Where did I EVER say a company said to let the lid set off? I said "I guess all of the companies who produce 1,000's of Liters of this stuff are wrong when they tell people it's best to let steep for the flavors to emulsify, but hey, who's paying attention?" And MANY have said let them steep, go read. I think you will see I'm correct when I say this. VENDORS section
I've done these same tests with Glycerin (USP) only and flavoring and the same with Propylene Glycol and flavoring only, and still gotten the darkening process from a bit of flavors... these containing ZERO nic. So again back to my theory that steeping flavors together changes the compounds somehow causing it to get thicker and darker as it ages or steeps.
Some don't change color at all... even with nic in them. lid off or on. Apple, Melon, Champagne, Licorice... have some with lids on and some with lids off some are 3mL some are 6mL... going on 4 days and no change and they have 24mg - 48mg nic in them... hmmm. And then there's Espresso, Maple Syrup, RY4, Caramel which I've seen a DRASTIC change in (ALL DIY), in less than 24 hours. So back to theory of what causes the flavor and color to change... FLAVORING and what ingredients are in them. I'm sure nic plays a part as well, but the flavoring is what makes it steep better.
If ppl think steeping is going to make nicotine stonger it won't, only flavoring. I agree with leaving nicotine ONLY out that it will evap (but what DIYers have pure nic?)NOT when buying premixed (even 24mg nic - 48mg is considered premixed). Most people vape it before it loses potency. I've had my 1 bottle of 24mg nic for well since I started vaping and it STILL gives me a nic buzz if I vape it, so again I disagree with some of what you are saying.
Did you read the thread about the dude who has 2 year old Janty RY4 pre-mix? I was curious if after 2 years if it lost nic or flavor potency... which I'm sure it has to and get rancid to boot. But to say it would in a month, or even 6 mos from now is just asinine, let alone 1 - 2 weeks of steeping.
I'll keep DIYing the way that I do and enjoying the outcome.
David from freedom smoke usa (My favorite vendor) has some suggestions on steeping in this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reviews-suppliers/116969-freedomsmokeusa-free-samples.html
Thanks Mark! Yeah David has always suggested leaving the lid off for 24 hours if it doesn't taste quite right, how does he say it? Something like what's a little nauseating one day is a fine bottle the next going on to saying "breathing, aging all of those help" when you get some juice that is too fresh.
IMO I think all juices should steep for a good 24 - 48 hours when going DIY. As far as pre-mixes you kinda gotta go with it, cuz unless it's a noted supplier for fresh, fast shipments. You just don't know how long it's steeped.
Again, I am no scientist, but I will listen to vendors who deal with 100's and 1000's of Liters of this stuff over someone who just randomly posts and doesn't confirm if they DIY or how they know what they do.
Thanks again Mark! Pam and David's thread... I love it! FSUSA has a really good product, great CS, and shipping is super fast.
The talking about steeping starts around the end of page 6 and into page 7 of the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reviews-suppliers/116969-freedomsmokeusa-free-samples.html thread.
IMO I think all juices should steep for a good 24 - 48 hours when going DIY. As far as pre-mixes you kinda gotta go with it, cuz unless it's a noted supplier for fresh, fast shipments. You just don't know how long it's steeped.
Again, I am no scientist, but I will listen to vendors who deal with 100's and 1000's of Liters of this stuff over someone who just randomly posts and doesn't confirm if they DIY or how they know what they do.
Thanks again Mark! Pam and David's thread... I love it! FSUSA has a really good product, great CS, and shipping is super fast.
The talking about steeping starts around the end of page 6 and into page 7 of the http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reviews-suppliers/116969-freedomsmokeusa-free-samples.html thread.
So If I have a DIY with no nic, and only 1 flavor it should not need to steep right?
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