Are battery charger manufacturers keeping up with the pace?

[tailland]

Have to get your input on something that's been penetrating my mind more often in the last weeks...

As I observe it:

(A) The trend to using high powered devices is unbroken. 2*18650 is defacto standard since some time, and the 18650s are slowly becoming accompanied or even replaced by 21700s (or 26650 in a few cases). Everyone likes the X217 with its 2*21700 batts, right? I know I do.

but

(B) Whenever I browse shops for chargers, or view manufacturers' threads here on ecf about their newly released chargers, I can't help but think that most of them are needlessly underpowered.

If you're a heavy vaper and you're using high powered devices, there are basically 2 charger companies which produce adequate models which let you charge your battery bulks in a reasonable amount of time (meaning you're present and not asleep while they`re charging): Miboxer, and Folomov; with 4-6A total output for their 2bay chargers, and up to 10-12A for their 4bay chargers.

That's pretty much it, no? What else would you want to use to charge a load of 4*21700 at a time? A charger that does it with 4*0.5A !? I certainly don't.

 

[Mordacai]

Hello tailland, SkyRC MC3000 looks interesting.

 

[Jazzman]

The SkyRC will do exactly what you want an a lot more. A lot more, and it's been around for a couple years. It's not cheap, I paid $110 for mine, but good tools never are. This is a very popular charger with the flashlight guys. If you think vapers are crazy about batteries and chargers... you should visit the flashlight forums to see a whole new level of crazy. Of course, it's their hobby so good on them and they have added a lot to battery and charger knowledge that applies equally to us.

The new XTar and Nitecore chargers are much better than the old ones, but are still lacking in power overall. I agree with that, but I guess they are meant to be idiot proof... and thank God for that really.

The Folomov looks like a max charge rate of 2A, which is pretty good. But it seems to lack many features, features I look for in a good charger. The Miboxer is a bit better at 2.5A charge rate, but is still feature poor (although better feature wise than the Folomov). But both these chargers are inexpensive chargers and will do fine for most. I wouldn't expect a cheap(er) charger to have the features I'm looking for.

To me a charger is something worth investing in and I will happily pay a Benjamin for it, both for safety and the features I want.

 

[Mordacai]

Hello Jazzman, have you worked out how to set a battery charging profile on the MC3000?

As I know that you can setup profiles for different batteries, it seems that it could be very convoluted but well worth it.

 

[Jazzman]

Hello Jazzman, have you worked out how to set a battery charging profile on the MC3000?

As I know that you can setup profiles for different batteries, it seems that it could be very convoluted but well worth it.

Yeah, it is really awkward programming and interface TBH @Mordacai . But it does do what it is supposed to as far as charge, discharge, refresh, cycle, etc. It is just not a modern, intuitive interface.

I think what you are asking is you want is to setup the series of actions you want to happen and then save it to a program number so you can call it up any time and in any of the 4 slots. Yes I do this and it's not too hard. Just remember if you do a reset to factory this information will be erased and defaults put in.

The idea is that you pick a program number you want to alter and program the action (like charge, discharge, cycle, etc), battery type, charging current, discharge current, resting time and about 15 more choices and then save that to a program number. Now you can use it just by calling up the number. Which is fine, but I can see you also have to create a cheat sheet to write down the program number and what actions you programmed... or have a really good memory if you program all 30 programs. Lol... I'll be doing the cheat sheet in Excel for sure. And that's what I mean about awkward interface. It works perfectly and you get used to it quickly, but it's clunky the way it's done and could be so much better in that regard.

If I misinterpreted what you wanted, please let me know.

 

[tailland]

Guys, it's not like I'm personally looking for a new charger - I already bought one (Folomov A-4) with the gift card I got from heavensgift. I'm just generally worried when I see manufacturers, who are specifically paying attention to vapers (nightcore, xtar, golisi, who are also present in this forum) releasing new products, which are simply not keeping up with what mainstream vaping seems to move towards.

And yes, a user throwing his money at a high-endish "tool", an "investment", may solve the user's problem (although not every vaper can afford a $50-100 charger), but that doesn't do anything against the disconnect I'm seeing between our needs and what still appears to be the defacto production standard in the industry :ß

And saying that those slow devices by nitecore or xtar would compensate for their slowness by being "fool proof"... is that a valid statement, given that the slow charging speeds of their devices encourage users to either let the chargers operate unsupervised, either during sleep hours, or during the day when people aren't at home? That's a big safety thing.

 

[Jazzman]

Guys, it's not like I'm personally looking for a new charger - I already bought one (Folomov A-4) with the gift card I got from heavensgift. I'm just generally worried when I see manufacturers, who are specifically paying attention to vapers (nightcore, xtar, golisi, who are also present in this forum) releasing new products, which are simply not keeping up with what mainstream vaping seems to move towards.

And yes, a user throwing his money at a high-endish "tool", an "investment", may solve the user's problem (although not every vaper can afford a $50-100 charger), but that doesn't do anything against the disconnect I'm seeing between our needs and what still appears to be the defacto production standard in the industry :ß

And saying that those slow devices by nitecore or xtar would compensate for their slowness by being "fool proof"... is that a valid statement, given that the slow charging speeds of their devices encourage users to either let the chargers operate unsupervised, either during sleep hours, or during the day when people aren't at home? That's a big safety thing.

If you have the Folomov and it does what you want then it's the perfect charger for you. But don't make the mistake of thinking higher amp chargers, when it allows the user to choose the charge rate is inherently safe. I would say the opposite. Up to 1C charging should be relatively safe for most Lion batteries, but if someone charges a 700mAh 18350 at 3A that could end very badly. It would be up to the user to know the difference. Many or most would not, but might be tempted to "Fast charge" at a higher than safe rate for convenience. As if a typical user would know what a safe charge rate really is. I'd rather have a charger that protects against that. But that's just me. My old Nitecore D4 would charge at a max of 750mAh, which is relatively safe for just about any battery.

Nothing's truly "Idiot proof". Never underestimate the stupidity or the tenacity of an idiot.

As far as charging when not at home? That would not be bright with any charger. When asleep? That can be handled with proper precautions and a good charger... otherwise, don't. Or if you really must, at least put the charger and battery in the kitchen sink or somewhere relatively safe that can take a bit of heat if worst comes to worst. But of course most won't bother and just do what they do because of convenience right?

Bottom line? It is inherently safer to charge at lower current values I think. But that's really not the point either. If you have a need to charge faster, have the "Tool" to do the job as efficiently and safely as possible.

 

[bombastinator]

Have to get your input on something that's been penetrating my mind more often in the last weeks...

As I observe it:

(A) The trend to using high powered devices is unbroken. 2*18650 is defacto standard since some time, and the 18650s are slowly becoming accompanied or even replaced by 21700s (or 26650 in a few cases). Everyone likes the X217 with its 2*21700 batts, right? I know I do.

but

(B) Whenever I browse shops for chargers, or view manufacturers' threads here on ecf about their newly released chargers, I can't help but think that most of them are needlessly underpowered.

If you're a heavy vaper and you're using high powered devices, there are basically 2 charger companies which produce adequate models which let you charge your battery bulks in a reasonable amount of time (meaning you're present and not asleep while they`re charging): Miboxer, and Folomov; with 4-6A total output for their 2bay chargers, and up to 10-12A for their 4bay chargers.

That's pretty much it, no? What else would you want to use to charge a load of 4*21700 at a time? A charger that does it with 4*0.5A !? I certainly don't.

The advantage to low powered chargers as I understand it is they’re gentler on batteries. My charger will do 2 amp but I leave it set on .5 amp. I’m not in a hurry and I’d rather my batteries have longer useful lives. I agree about the keeping pace though. Lately the issue I most care about is monitoring and maintaining battery health. I bought the biggest most badass charger I could find because it’s supposed to specialize in that. One of its features is that it will check battery internal resistance which is supposed to be a major marker for battery health. Now I find out there are two KINDS of internal resistance (AC resistance and DC resistance) and only one of them actually does that. I had to watch a YouTube video to even figure out how to activate the feature at all, and I still don’t know what kind of resistance it checks.

Too much work.

 

[DaveP]

I always have time to charge at the 1A rate. Samsung 40T 21700 takes around 3 hours and a few minutes to charge at 1A. I'm getting about 14 hours vape time from the 40T's, so I'm not waiting on a charger to finish.

My new 40T's are reading 10mr. That's the best and lowest IR I've seen so far.

Two of my chargers display internal resistance. As long as the number is low I'm not worried. I've used cells for as long as two years and have only once seen the IR to approach 100 mr. I canned that cell, but it was an old button top that I used in a Provari years ago.

 

[bombastinator]

I always have time to charge at the 1A rate. Samsung 40T 21700 takes around 3 hours and a few minutes to charge at 1A. I'm getting about 14 hours vape time from the 40T's, so I'm not waiting on a charger to finish.

My new 40T's are reading 10mr. That's the best and lowest IR I've seen so far.

Two of my chargers display internal resistance. As long as the number is low I'm not worried. I've used cells for as long as two years and have only once seen the IR to approach 100 mr. I canned that cell, but it was an old button top that I used in a Provari years ago.

Which kind of resistance?

 

[DaveP]

Which kind of resistance?

AC or DC? I don't know. I just trust that the charger is using whichever is relevant to the cells I'm charging. I'm assuming that it's DC IR since the charger is pushing a DC current to the cell while charging.

 

[bombastinator]

AC or DC? I don't know. I just trust that the charger is using whichever is relevant to the cells I'm charging. I'm assuming that it's DC IR since the charger is pushing a DC current to the cell while charging.

According to someone around here somewhere that was quoting mooch (Can’t confirm or deny, I’m still behind on my mooch watching) AC measures battery age, while DC measures how hard a battery hits, which would only be useful for mech users.

 

[Jazzman]

Which kind of resistance?

I think @DaveP is correct and our chargers measure DC-IR. To use AC-IR the charger must send AC current to measure the battery IR (DC-IR uses DC current). I don't think our chargers have the ability to provide AC current. Both methods are very similar with AC-IR generally showing slightly lower IR and can be accurate at any battery charge level while the DC-IR method is most accurate only with the battery fully charged, which is why with DC-IR method the IR measurement can be different at the beginning and end of the charge. The end of the charge measurement is the most accurate, although both will typically be very close.

Here is an interesting link that can explain it much better than I can.
https://hiokiusa.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/18740-UG_WP_BT4560E1-56E.pdf

 

[Robin Becker]

Xtar brought some weeks ago this charger: SC2 – XTAR Germany

It is a very small charger that works on QC3.0 (Qualcom Quick charge). So if you use the right QC3.0 Power-supplier you can get on every slot 2A (if both are occupied), or even 3A on one slot.

This is the firt Charger I have seen so far, that go along with the innovation of the market

I don´t know, if Xtar will use it on further 5V Chargers, but it is a very interesting experiment IMO.