Are non-smokers the real target market

[Ravensfan]

To me, it doesn't make sense for big tobacco companies to invest heavily, like they have, in a product that is currently used primarily to get people to stop buying their products. The FDA will never approve vaping as a smoking cessation method. That is reserved for BP. Smokers now have a social stigma attached to them that was typically reserved for child pornographers. That isn't going to change and big tobacco has to see the writing on the wall that they are basically on their last generation of customers. People have enjoyed tobacco for centuries. I think people still want to enjoy the sensation that tobacco can bring, but they are now more likely to start using illegal drugs than cigarettes. Cigars are pricey, take a long time to finish, and can really only be enjoyed in wide open spaces. Dip, chew, and snuff have never been practical for the masses. I think many are looking at e-cigs as a way to generate new business and not just replace the old business. I think the day will come where there will be more e-cig customers than there are currently cigarette customers.

 

[hausmouse]

Based on what exactly?

 

[Sikko]

I think there will be more e-cig customers than cigarette customers as well, because many smokers will become vapors. I don't see vaping catching on for non smokers. People are much more health conscious as they were when smoking was "cool".

 

[Ravensfan]

Based on what exactly?

Economics and marketing. Do you invest in, and market a product for a dwindling 20% of the population, or do you aim higher than that?

Do you think Lorilland bought Blu and spent millions on "the guy from Blade" marketing campaign to try to get people to stop smoking Newports? It would be like McDonalds buying a diet pill company.

 

[darkhood]

Disagree, it's a better alternative to tobacco and shouldn't even be marketed as a smoking cessation product - it's the future and they're right on in investing in it.

 

[darkhood]

They say all that crap in the disclaimer cuz they have to - really they're just trying to get u to try it and that's exactly what they should be doing.

 

[Ravensfan]

I think there will be more e-cig customers than cigarette customers as well, because many smokers will become vapors. I don't see vaping catching on for non smokers. People are much more health conscious as they were when smoking was "cool".

I would agree with you if we didn't have that cigar boom a few years ago. Everybody was buying $15 cigars and humidors and high end butane lighters. I think many people took to cigars because they enjoyed a good smoke, and they didn't think they were that unhealthy. I think the cigar craze would have still been going strong if they didn't ban smoking them everywhere. Before the smoking ban, cigar bars were all the rage here in Baltimore. Men and women alike were paying monthly dues to rent humidors and sit back with a good drink and a smoke. After the ban, there was really no place to smoke them. You're not going to spend 15 bucks to freeze outside a bar for 30 minutes with a cigar. The only place I still see people smoking cigars is on the golf course. I think vaping can catch on like cigars did.

 

[jasl90]

The tobacco industry is hedging their bets with their investments in e cigs. They don't necessarily want anyone to make the switch but if someone is going to make the switch, that want then switching to their e cig brand.

Are they marketing to non-smokers? Sure they are. They're marketing their tobacco products to non-smokers why wouldn't they do the same with e cigs?

 

[Ravensfan]

The tobacco industry is hedging their bets with their investments in e cigs. They don't necessarily want anyone to make the switch but if someone is going to make the switch, that want then switching to their e cig brand.

Are they marketing to non-smokers? Sure they are. They're marketing their tobacco products to non-smokers why wouldn't they do the same with e cigs?

Well they can't market their product to anyone anymore. No TV ads. No billboards. It's been a while since I have picked up an actual magazine, but can they even advertise there anymore? If anything they are forced to run ads telling you not to buy their product. Their current product sells on addiction alone. It's literally a dying market. It's no longer "cool" to smoke cigarettes. It's just smart business to try and expand your market.

 

[jasl90]

Well they can't market their product to anyone anymore. No TV ads. No billboards. It's been a while since I have picked up an actual magazine, but can they even advertise there anymore? If anything they are forced to run ads telling you not to buy their product. Their current product sells on addiction alone. It's literally a dying market. It's no longer "cool" to smoke cigarettes. It's just smart business to try and expand your market.

They just need to be a little slicker about it now. That's all. Mostly product placements in tv shows and movies. As for being not cool... To a kid, simply not being allowed to do it, makes it cool.

 

[Ravensfan]

They just need to be a little slicker about it now. That's all. Mostly product placements in tv shows and movies. As for being not cool... To a kid, simply not being allowed to do it, makes it cool.

I can't remember the last movie I saw where the good guy was smoking a cigarette. That may even be banned, or get a movie an NC-17 rating in the future. I don't think cigs hold any cool factor anymore. It's easier for a minor to get illegal drugs than it is a pack of cigarettes and they would probably have to rob a a bank to afford them. Kids have changed. They don't even get excited about getting their driver's license anymore.

 

[bazmonkey]

To me, it doesn't make sense for big tobacco companies to invest heavily, like they have, in a product that is currently used primarily to get people to stop buying their products.

Why doesn't that make sense?

E-cigarettes:

* Still require tobacco (the cheapest way to make nicotine will always be "raise a tobacco plant")
* Don't have wicked taxes on them. Yet.
* Cost more (unless you're making your own juice or buying bulk)
* Involve disposable parts that are necessary for its use (whereas with smoking the only "extra" needed is fire).
* Don't have the awful stigma associated with cigarettes.
* Won't kill their customers.

Why wouldn't Lorillard want to get in on that? If I was a... pretzel maker, and bagels were just becoming popular and stealing my pretzel customers, I wouldn't be fighting to promote my pretzels. Rather, I'd be working on making a decent bagel.

The tobacco industry can't stop the migration away from smoked tobacco. It's not just fickle market preferences or something: it's society waking up from a collective dream that smoking was safe. On some level tobacco companies must know that their flagship products are doomed.

Given that, it's a great idea for them to get on ecigs. They get to slough off a bit of that merchants-of-death tinge to their corporate image. They get to sell you a LOT more stuff (analog cigarettes didn't involve "starter kits", did they?). They get to be involved in a *growing* sector of the economy.

As for bringing in non-smokers... that's inherent to the concept. We're holding shiny toys, raving about how much better it is than cigarettes and how good it tastes. Then we turn to the non-smokers in the audience and say "Oh, and you probably shouldn't try it. It's meant for smokers." It's the truth, and it's with their safety and ultimate well-being in mind that we say those things, but it's not realistic to expect that to work. We can't stop non-smokers from vaping any more than we "stopped" them from smoking.

 

[bazmonkey]

I don't think cigs hold any cool factor anymore.

Me neither. I started smoking when I was 18, and I knew people that did at 16. NONE of them were "cool" for it. They were either labelled "stupid", "loser", or it was assumed that smoking was some lame attempt to look counter-culture. I was certainly no cooler for smoking. In fact, lots of people stopped hanging out with me, or not as often.

I used to make snide remarks about their holier-than-thou attitude to it. Once I stopped smoking enough to realize, it was as plain as day: I smelled.

 

[Ravensfan]

Why doesn't that make sense?

E-cigarettes:

* Still require tobacco (the cheapest way to make nicotine will always be "raise a tobacco plant")
* Don't have wicked taxes on them. Yet.
* Cost more (unless you're making your own juice or buying bulk)
* Involve disposable parts that are necessary for its use (whereas with smoking the only "extra" needed is fire).
* Don't have the awful stigma associated with cigarettes.
* Won't kill their customers.

Why wouldn't Lorillard want to get in on that? If I was a... pretzel maker, and bagels were just becoming popular and stealing my pretzel customers, I wouldn't be fighting to promote my pretzels. Rather, I'd be working on making a decent bagel.

The tobacco industry can't stop the migration away from smoked tobacco. It's not just fickle market preferences or something: it's society waking up from a collective dream that smoking was safe. On some level tobacco companies must know that their flagship products are doomed.

Given that, it's a great idea for them to get on ecigs. They get to slough off a bit of that merchants-of-death tinge to their corporate image. They get to sell you a LOT more stuff (analog cigarettes didn't involve "starter kits", did they?). They get to be involved in a *growing* sector of the economy.

As for bringing in non-smokers... that's inherent to the concept. We're holding shiny toys, raving about how much better it is than cigarettes and how good it tastes. Then we turn to the non-smokers in the audience and say "Oh, and you probably shouldn't try it. It's meant for smokers." It's the truth, and it's with their safety and ultimate well-being in mind that we say those things, but it's not realistic to expect that to work. We can't stop non-smokers from vaping any more than we "stopped" them from smoking.

I agree with everything you said, except I'm not really certain if e-cigs are more profitable for BT over analogs. Right now everything is outsourced. From a business standpoint it's smart. It's also smart to go after that 80% of the population that doesn't already use your product.

 

[Ravensfan]

Me neither. I started smoking when I was 18, and I knew people that did at 16. NONE of them were "cool" for it. They were either labelled "stupid", "loser", or it was assumed that smoking was some lame attempt to look counter-culture. I was certainly no cooler for smoking. In fact, lots of people stopped hanging out with me, or not as often.

I used to make snide remarks about their holier-than-thou attitude to it. Once I stopped smoking enough to realize, it was as plain as day: I smelled.

I started in the late 80's and it did still have a cool factor then. We had an outdoor smoking section for students at my high school. Teachers were still allowed to smoke in their indoor teacher's lounge, and most did. Of course that's all changed now. The cool factor is long gone. It's amazing how times have changed in just over 20 years. Back then you could smoke in a public school. Today you can sit at a blackjack table in a casino and gamble your rent money away while a cocktail waitress continuously loads you up with free drinks, but don't you dare think about smoking a cigarette.

 

[DC2]

This is going to be interesting...

 

[Thompson]

I don't think non-smokers are the target.

Everybody who doesn't smoke that has tried my ecig for the hell of it hasn't shown any interest in picking it up. The smokers however become intrigued.

Some have that attitude of if your not smoking, why bother vaping nicotine?

The devices they come in contact with (the BT e-cigs) will more than likely disappoint and put them off. That and/or the cost.

 

[Hello World]

I wouldn't be surprised if China smokes more than the rest of the world combined, and it's dirt-cheap too.

They'll likely always have a steady market, also on the rise for the newer generation, despite all the anti-smoking efforts. Some of their Biz will be lost to vapers and NRTs.

 

[UncleChuck]

I think BT is getting into the vape game precisely because they see tobacco as a dwindling market here in the US and other places. There are some markets that BT is actually expanding in, I believe India is going through a huge surge in tobacco use (and BT involvement obviously. I think it's India... might be wrong.

Anyway, so it's a smart move from them. If people want to quit smoking, they loose revenue. If they can get those same people to use their brand of ecig, they get that revenue back. They are hoping that people who buy their ecigs aren't the type of people who otherwise would stay on tobacco cigarettes, they are hoping the people quitting tobacco will use their product. By ignoring vaping, BT is loosing out, because ecigs are already all over.

If BT were the only people who sold ecigs, then yeah it wouldn't make sense. They could just not sell ecigs, and stick people with real cigs. But that's not the case, regardless of what BT does people will still vape and stop smoking, so they need to catch those people and sell to them.

Although, you have a point, I wouldn't doubt BT might be thinking that some non-smokers will pick up vaping, as we have already seen does happen. Or maybe they even hope that non-smokers will start vaping, and then switch to cigarettes. You can never assume BT has totally moral reasons behind doing what they do, so you do raise an interesting question.

I don't think it's quite the same as Mcdonalds owning a diet pill company, although that would actually be a good idea. Get people fat on one of your products, and then get them skinny on another of your products. They provide both the problem and solution, you might have just given Mcdonalds an idea

BT getting into ecigs is more like McDonalds selling healthy diet food, because they know they are loosing some customers due to how unhealthy their food is. So they want to catch these customers back by offering a healthy meal. Just like BT trying to catch lost customers back who have switched to vaping.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Well they can't market their product to anyone anymore. No TV ads. No billboards. It's been a while since I have picked up an actual magazine, but can they even advertise there anymore? If anything they are forced to run ads telling you not to buy their product. Their current product sells on addiction alone. It's literally a dying market. It's no longer "cool" to smoke cigarettes. It's just smart business to try and expand your market.

The number of smokers in the USA has not significantly changed in the last twenty years. As a percentage of the population in the US, there is a slight decline. The number is nearly constant. There is also the foreign markets, many of which are still expanding. That said, expanding into e-cigs is a winning play for BT. They have oodles of taste and flavor research that is somewhat transferable and facilities to match them. Why bet on one horse when you can afford to bet on two?