This discussion has turned into how and whom is lighting fireworks now?
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Good Luck All! Be Strong Vapers!
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Are you KIDDING ME??? Vape banned for 4th of July!
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So on one hand it's unreasonable because it's outdoors (where anything goes, apparently), but on the other hand the location is irrelevent. Gotcha.
If this were a court of law, and if I were a lawyer, I believe this is where the defense would rest.
Vapers continue to hurt their own cause. The reality is that if vaping were allowed at this event, there'd be some idiot walking around with 4 mods hooked up to a lanyard around his neck and a single mouthpiece blowing cumulonimbus clouds for the crowd. I've seen it happen. It happens because for some reason, vapers (who are mostly former smokers) think the world owes them something for finally after 30 years of bad decisions made one good one and they want to show it off or be respected/recognized for it. Vapers tend to view things myopically and believe that the way they conduct themselves must be the way other vapers would conduct themselves. A view that is egotistical and illogical.
It's the same reason alcohols is banned (because there's always one or two idiots that get drunk). The same reason lots of things are banned at city sponsored events. It's why vaping will continue to be banned at these types of events - there's always one or two idiots. And there always will be.
It's very easy to say "screw the man, I want to vape", but logic would dictate that the sensible thing to do for the people making these decisions would be to ban it - for many reasons, none of which most vapers can grasp because the forest is virtually invisible through the trees.
But continue to stealth vape out of a mock phone, drink beer from a pop can (apparently known as the biker attitude), sneak things in where they're not allowed and disregard any policy you can't agree with. That will certainly help the cause.
Now, I believe I'll let all of you "kill them all, let god sort it out" philosophers continue the discussion and rally against rights that don't exist, and I'll step aside. Best of luck to you all.
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You really don't think there is enough air in the outdoors that we should tell everyone what they can do or not do there. Are you for buying air cause that will be next. The sheeple will be the downfall of us all.
Come to Calabassas CA an enjoy your freedom for the 4th of july. No wait! Darn.
Following your logic, they they obviously have enough manpower to go around and check every fountain drink cup, plastic cup, coffee cup and soda can to make sure it's not alcohol. It looks just like drinking alcohol!!!! Just have 'em sniff the exhales as they go around sniffing everyone's drink.
Now, stevegmu has an interesting theory:
when somebody's back is turned to me, then I automatically lose my sense of smell.
As in: when somebody vapes with their face turned to me, I can smell that it is vapor. But when they turn their back to me, then I automatically lose my sense of smell, and I can no longer smell the difference between smoke and vapor.
Could stevegmu please elaborate on this theory? This is the first time I have heard this theory.
It reminds me a little of the "scientific experiment" that proved that a spider with no legs is deaf.
If someone is 20 feet away, they aren't going to sniff around waiting to see if they smell smoke before they go running to 'authorities' to report someone 'smoking'; the smoker who wants to smoke isn't going to wait to smell smoke; he will light up, thus the problem...
I was at a restaurant in Prague enjoying a Pilsner Urquell and a vape while waiting for my delicious fillet mignon to be prepared. I was in the non-smoking section. No one around me cared, but from quite a few tables away someone came over and told me smoking isn't allowed. I showed the gentleman my ProVari, which was in 18650 mode and certainly looking nothing like a cigarette, or even cigar. I was vaping AIV's Zombie Apocalypse, which smells like strawberries. He still thought I was smoking and went to the waiter to complain, who explained to him vaping is not smoking and is allowed. This would never happen in the society I live in. A manager would tell me vaping is not allowed and the next day there would be a no electronic cigarettes sign posted. It is what it is, and I can see why, not that I agree with it...
I think Edmund Burke said it best when he said "All it takes for evil to flourish is that good men (and women) do nothing".
Attending is doing nothing.....so is abstinence.
Stealth vaping is still doing nothing with a tiny bit of rebellion being thrown in....rebellion that could easily backfire with a 500 dollar fine and public humiliation.
Hows that gonna make vapers look?
No surprise here but Im with Anjaffm on this one. If you have time to post on a public forum to complain about this issue then you have time to write a letter to the organizers of the event and find another place to watch fireworks if they refuse to listen to reason and remain close-minded about a subject where their ignorance is apparent.
THAT is not doing nothing. Thats becoming active and fighting for the things we believe in.
If WE dont do it who is?
Apathy and resignation are two of the things that ANTZ count on.
Imagine where we'd all be right now if our founding fathers had fallen victim to this line of reasoning.
There probably wouldnt even be a 4th of July to celebrate.
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You'll notice that there is no regulation concerning the sheer amount of vehicles that are driven to an event like this. Vehicles that produce massive amounts of smog and pollution that we are forced to breathe in just by being outside.
Isnt smog something that L.A is infamous the world over for?
Funny how you hear almost no one complain about that......theyd rather blame smokers and by extension vapers as well.
In the past 20 years cigarette smoking has been drastically curtailed all across the country.
People are still getting cancer though......imagine that.I thought it was all from second-hand smoke.
This is the very definition of "demonizing" and why we need to fight to stay separate from rules and regulations regarding smokers.
Were not smoking.
Were making a conscious decision to choose a healthier lifestyle.
Call it harm reduction or whatever you want but its something we should be proud of and something thats worth fighting for.
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The day itself is lent to the separation of the colonies from Mother England.
I think some are thinking the celebration of freedom is a personal ticket to disregard rules and regulations. It is not.
No smoking? So what. No Alcohol? So what. No vaping? So what. If these rules are part of the event and one cannot enjoy the event because of....don't go. Simple.
Maybe the town's Fire Marshall imposed the regulations under the order of the local politicians that are under educated or maybe they Vape? Who cares?
Many indoor/outdoor venues have rules we must follow so that everyone has the right to enjoy.
Personally to me and my fantastic wife the event sounds fun. Surly we could stow our Vape gear for an hour or two. Again, If you can't don't go.
It is not only the right, but the OBLIGATION of a patriot to disobey unjust laws...
When Thomas Jefferson said those words, he had.no intention of it ending up on a thread on ECF out of context and quote. C'mon, people move on its an event regulation.
Why I would go if I lived closer to it and could travel in a car at all...
Indeed it is, what it is. I personally can't see why, but I suspect a combination of apathy and ignorance. Education is the silver bullet, but I still don't know how to educate people who refuse to learn.
After being disabled for seven years, I am JUST starting to see a slightly brighter future for myself. Maybe, just maybe, the means to get my life back to some semblance of normalcy. Not fancy dreams. Just normalcy.
But my tolerance for injustice has reached something close to zero. And if public/media/government treatment of vaping causes the whole subject to go south in a big way over the next few years, then I will dramatically change the plans that I have for my life.
I am house-bound. I can't get out to participate anywhere presence is needed. I don't have a portable computing device. Which means to do anything requiring communication with the world, I have to sit in my home office at my desktop PC. My stupid neck and shoulder situation makes it so that I can't do that with any semblance of consistency. Sometimes it's ten minutes, sometimes it's forty, sometimes it's two. For days at a time it's zero.
But I swear to the universe that I will NOT put up with mass ignorance. I will take whatever pills I have to take in order to somehow get out of my house. I feel like a worthless stump much of the time anyway when I am trying to rouse people's feelings about something important like this, but then can't follow it up with reliable participation of my own.
I will crawl if I have to. I am not going to let people do this. I'll start with words, but there is no scenario in which I will accept people harming thousands - and eventually millions - of others by blocking from a public place a harmless product that saves lives. It's wrong of them to do it, and it's wrong of everyone else to let them. It's wrong of me to let them, regardless of my excuses.
Sometimes I wonder if I woke up after my last surgery in some surreal alternate universe in which this kind of crap is not only possible, but also accepted and even encouraged. Maybe I died during my last surgery and I went to hell, and part of the "hell" is that they don't tell you you're in hell, or even that you died, so you continue floundering along as if your life were still intact and your plans were still achievable.
So I wonder what they'd do to someone who foments revolution in this "holodeck" or whatever it is?
(Just kidding on the last part. Don't worry. I haven't quite completely lost my mind yet.
)
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What I've found to be true: people who don't smoke know what it is, and have an almost unchangeable opinion. Smokers who don't want to quit say it's bad. Smokers who want to quit are loaded with questions, and want to try it if you offer (where the drip tip condoms come in handy) and may even switch. At events like that, I don't bring my mod, I make a quick coil for my evod, and grab a couple of egos. Egos aren't scary, people who want to stop slowly killing them selves will spend the $40 on a starter kit. Some stick, some don't.
Why use this as a social protest and get fined, when you can convert some one?
I don't understand why people want you to be selfish.
Why use this as a social protest and get fined, when you can convert some one?
I don't understand why people want you to be selfish.
@CKCalmer keep the faith brother. If you do not, you lose. Don't let them win. I also live with disability and am not well with crowds learning how to walk, write and read again in the last 3 years.
It is obvious you are a smart man by your reads with a clear message.
You see your own anger, we see passion. Helping and making people understand one by one is making a difference and is very noble whether it's here on ECF or another arena.
The best of luck to you sir.
It is obvious you are a smart man by your reads with a clear message.
You see your own anger, we see passion. Helping and making people understand one by one is making a difference and is very noble whether it's here on ECF or another arena.
The best of luck to you sir.
At least I offered an explanation.
But I'll try again, so you may have more difficulty in spinning it as confusing.
It's unreasonable to disallow vaping outdoors anywhere because vapor is relatively harmless, and outdoors it would be very challenging to cause annoyance to others, in a reasonable fashion, unless the person vaping intentionally exhaled their vapor into nostrils of a fellow human, regardless of age. It is also unreasonable to disallow it because it appears like smoking, because a) there is no smoke and b) upon investigation of the vaper and exhaled substance, there would be none of the perceived issues that come from SHS or a combustible product in the midst of a crowded place. So, let's say someone there thought they saw another person smoking and reported it. Now, either there is manpower and willingness to follow up on that report, or there is not. No way for us on discussion forum to determine if there is the manpower/willingness, but let's assume there is. Then, the investigation would quickly find that it is not a combustible product, and poses zero of the perceived harm that comes from SHS. That they had to go investigate it is part of the issue, but can just as easily come up with policy in place or not.
The policy as written on the Calabassas city website is "no tobacco" and vaper vaping 0 nic would not be violating the policy.
And your supposition of what is 'reality' is unfounded and straw man.
Under this hypothetical view of reality, I feel confident that there will be plenty of egotistical persons who are acting in illogical ways, but will be allowed up to the point where their obnoxiousness is not perceived as troublesome, and more importantly, intentionally annoying, to fellow attendees. Kids would be great example of what I speak of. Kids can be highly myopic in way they go about things, but will be given lots and lots of leeway. From what you are saying in this argument it would be sensible to ban kids from the event, and/or at very least ban any kid that is not conducting themselves in the way that a good adult is expected to behave.
And there are lots of things that are not banned that lead to blatant idiocy on full display (i.e. kids playing about, smartphone users stuck with heads down ignoring immediate surroundings, etc.). Thus the inconsistency and the reason to have the discussion to reconsider the tame things, such as vaping outdoors in public event. Knowing that the other things will likely be tolerated, makes for pretty darn good reason to consider disobeying the arbitrary regulations put into place.
And for reasons that you have yet to state. Many reasons apparently to ban vaping, and yet, not one cited because the hope is that just saying it is disallowed ought to be sufficient enough.
I'm kinda curious if you understand the cause and if you can put it into words?
I'm feeling confident that whatever you come up with for 'the cause' I can use your own logic to essentially come from ANTZ position and downplay your ideas, perhaps convincing other readers that there is no reason to fight for vaping, in any capacity. Again, based on 'reasoning' you are using here.
Not so simple when one understands why colonies sought separation from Mother England. Weren't Mother England's laws okay for colonies? If not okay, so what? That would be the logic you are employing here and suggesting no one reply to.
As it stands now, there is no actual ruling, on city website, that says 'no vaping.' So what.
If I go and vape (obnoxiously) and another person doesn't like it, they can leave. Why complain or report my behavior when the 'so what' argument (which goes two ways) ought to suffice?
The rules that are part of this event are the sort that I feel we adults can all discuss and determine legitimate reasons why they would be disallowed. Thus far, in this thread, I'm yet to hear legitimate reason for disallowing vaping, and those who agree with this (alleged) regulation are saying just accept it as part of what organizers are calling for. Perhaps if us posters were deciding on morning of 4th of July whether or not to go, that would make some sense. But on vaping forum, that is really having discussion about rationale for disallowing vaping outdoors, it doesn't make sense to come to conclusions of 'so what.'
ok in response to the few condescending posts that seem to be so anti stealth vaping I just really feel the need to address this from my point of view because I happen to be partial to my point of view 
lets look at the law and the intent of the law on the surface and as it is written and why it exists
smoking is banned because of the whole second hand smoke thing and public safety, the law is in place to ensure that no one should have to be subjected to breathing any second hand smoke which is allegedly toxic, and then there is also secondary concerns about the safety of a lit cigarette in a crowd, and of course lets not forget the littering problem from cigarette butts. like it or not it only makes sense that the laws have been enacted to protect the innocent. same reason you can't drink and drive or drive 100mph down the highway, laws apply to all, mario andredi can not get an exemption and drive 100mph on the highway because he can prove that he is more than capable of safely doing so. I believe that there will never again become a time when the law is going to say oh ok your smoke is ok so you can go blow it wherever you want because you are going to prove it is safe to do so
there is no practical way to smoke without emitting smoke, that's why it's called smoking... chewing tobacco is not banned neither is a nic patch because this does not emit any smoke and posses no harm to those around you. if you want to chew on your cigarette or even decide to eat it, that is not a violation of the law, no cop can give you a ticket for eating a cigarette right in front of him that has not been lit, smoking laws are not to protect the smoker from himself, they're in place to protect others around the smoker, to preserve the rights of non smokers
now virtually ANY law I have ever seen anywhere that concerns vaping including all those recently enacted right here in ny, the reason cited is always without exception centered on the fact that vaping looks like smoking, can be mistaken for smoking and of course also to protect the rights of a non smoker so they are not subjected to having to breath your "smoke" weather it's actually harmful or not. in some ways I really can understand this, blowing a puff of "smoke" is blowing a puff of "smoke"... as a vapor you can jump up and say oh but it's really not smoke it's vapor and it's not harmful to others, yadda yadda blah blah blah, non vapors don't care about your argument, they not only may not know whether you're actually right or wrong but really they don't even care if your right or wrong, just as the law don't care if your right or wrong, you just can not blow your smoke where they don't want to subject other innocent people to it period... all those who think they are going to somehow change this and some how get the law to change it's mind and not continue to close the ecig loophole I think your just doing some wishful thinking, to the law the ecig is a loophole to the smoking bans and the loophole is going to be closed
the law is designed to protect others from your "smoke" and up until now to all the law makers an ecig appears to be nothing more than a loop hole, so yeah you think it's ok to go out there and blow your "smoke" because you say "blah blah blah" but whatever your still blowing "smoke", to me the argument that it's not smoke it's vapor is just not going to fly, because to the lawmakers no matter what you say I still see smoke, I don't want any smoke or vapor or whatever you want to call it wherever I don't want it. so now the way to close this loophole is to specifically add electronic cigarettes by name to the smoking ban. this will spread like wildfire across the country and I don't believe anyone can stop it
in my opinion all the vapors that are running around thinking there going to change this with there "blah blah blah" are just kidding themselves, I believe that there will never become a time where the law is going to ever say it's ok to blow your smoke in places they declared they don't want "smoke", all the blah blah blah out there is not going to change that in my opinion to me the only fight we have left worth fighting is the taxes and the restrictions on availability of nic juice and equipment in general, to me fighting to get them to allow our smoke because it's not bad smoke is a huge waste of time and effort, to me the solution is to get my nic fix without blowing any smoke
so now the way I see it the definition of "vaping" is to inhale from an ecig and to then exhale vapor, that is vaping that is what's banned. if I decided to sip my nic juice then I am not vaping and I am not breaking any laws... if I decide to sip my juice in a gaseous form but then hold it in long enough to fully condense and then exhale no vapor at all, am I breaking the law? if the definition of vaping includes the exhalation of vapor then no I am not really vaping. I am sipping my juice in a gaseous form allowing it to condense back to a liquid in my mouth and lungs and then nothing, no exhaling vapor, no smoke, legally I am not vaping, no one can ever accuse me of vaping or convict me of vaping because there is no vapor, I did not just vape, I sipped my juice, prove that I didn't? it's impossible, there are no witnesses to ever see me vape because I did not vape there was 0 visible smoke or vape emissions and the intent of the law is upheld, it was not confused with smoking and no one is bothered by it because there are no emissions which is what the law is designed to enforce. it's not fair to lump this into the same category as drinking alcohol from a soda can because the intent of the law is still being broken, the law is in place to prevent anyone from becoming intoxicated and you are still going to become intoxicated, it's not the same thing.
I enjoy vaping and I vape wherever I can but in places I can't vape I can still get my nic fix somewhat by sipping my juice and not exhaling any vapor at all, I am not vaping and no one can possibly get offended because I am not doing anything offensive at all and no one can claim that I am any more than a guy who is chewing on an unlit cigarette can be accused of smoking.
maybe stealth vaping isn't the right term, maybe it should be called taking a gaseous sip of my juice when I can't vape, so you guys can run around trying to get the law to allow you to blow smoke in Mcdonalds and the mall or whatever, I think your wasting your time but hey it's your time do what you want with it, me I'll continue to not vape wherever it is banned, instead I will just take a sip here and a sip there of my juice in gaseous form... the only reason it will be concealed or disguised is to avoid confusing anyone into thinking that I am actually vaping. without any smoke I am not vaping and no one could ever testify that they saw me vape unless I accidentally sip too much gaseous juice and allow some to escape in gaseous form, then I'd be vaping. with no vape emissions I am not vaping so you see I am not circumventing the law or cheating or hiding, I am simply changing the way I get my nic fix to fit within the law and I am not exhaling anything that the law is designed to prevent me from doing, what I'm doing is legal and courteous to those around me and is following the intent of the law, no offensive actions and no chargeable offence, no fighting and no handcuffs, hell no one knows or even cares what I'm doing and all is well as long as I'm offending no one and I'm still getting my nic fix when I am able to do so and within the intent of law in my opinion so there really is no need for all the stealth vaping hate, stealth vaping when done correctly and completely is really a way to actually follow the intent of the law, no one gives a crap if you sip your nic juice, just don't "vape" it and the intent of the law is being upheld in my opinion. no vape emissions and it's not vaping
lets look at the law and the intent of the law on the surface and as it is written and why it exists
smoking is banned because of the whole second hand smoke thing and public safety, the law is in place to ensure that no one should have to be subjected to breathing any second hand smoke which is allegedly toxic, and then there is also secondary concerns about the safety of a lit cigarette in a crowd, and of course lets not forget the littering problem from cigarette butts. like it or not it only makes sense that the laws have been enacted to protect the innocent. same reason you can't drink and drive or drive 100mph down the highway, laws apply to all, mario andredi can not get an exemption and drive 100mph on the highway because he can prove that he is more than capable of safely doing so. I believe that there will never again become a time when the law is going to say oh ok your smoke is ok so you can go blow it wherever you want because you are going to prove it is safe to do so
there is no practical way to smoke without emitting smoke, that's why it's called smoking... chewing tobacco is not banned neither is a nic patch because this does not emit any smoke and posses no harm to those around you. if you want to chew on your cigarette or even decide to eat it, that is not a violation of the law, no cop can give you a ticket for eating a cigarette right in front of him that has not been lit, smoking laws are not to protect the smoker from himself, they're in place to protect others around the smoker, to preserve the rights of non smokers
now virtually ANY law I have ever seen anywhere that concerns vaping including all those recently enacted right here in ny, the reason cited is always without exception centered on the fact that vaping looks like smoking, can be mistaken for smoking and of course also to protect the rights of a non smoker so they are not subjected to having to breath your "smoke" weather it's actually harmful or not. in some ways I really can understand this, blowing a puff of "smoke" is blowing a puff of "smoke"... as a vapor you can jump up and say oh but it's really not smoke it's vapor and it's not harmful to others, yadda yadda blah blah blah, non vapors don't care about your argument, they not only may not know whether you're actually right or wrong but really they don't even care if your right or wrong, just as the law don't care if your right or wrong, you just can not blow your smoke where they don't want to subject other innocent people to it period... all those who think they are going to somehow change this and some how get the law to change it's mind and not continue to close the ecig loophole I think your just doing some wishful thinking, to the law the ecig is a loophole to the smoking bans and the loophole is going to be closed
the law is designed to protect others from your "smoke" and up until now to all the law makers an ecig appears to be nothing more than a loop hole, so yeah you think it's ok to go out there and blow your "smoke" because you say "blah blah blah" but whatever your still blowing "smoke", to me the argument that it's not smoke it's vapor is just not going to fly, because to the lawmakers no matter what you say I still see smoke, I don't want any smoke or vapor or whatever you want to call it wherever I don't want it. so now the way to close this loophole is to specifically add electronic cigarettes by name to the smoking ban. this will spread like wildfire across the country and I don't believe anyone can stop it
in my opinion all the vapors that are running around thinking there going to change this with there "blah blah blah" are just kidding themselves, I believe that there will never become a time where the law is going to ever say it's ok to blow your smoke in places they declared they don't want "smoke", all the blah blah blah out there is not going to change that in my opinion to me the only fight we have left worth fighting is the taxes and the restrictions on availability of nic juice and equipment in general, to me fighting to get them to allow our smoke because it's not bad smoke is a huge waste of time and effort, to me the solution is to get my nic fix without blowing any smoke
so now the way I see it the definition of "vaping" is to inhale from an ecig and to then exhale vapor, that is vaping that is what's banned. if I decided to sip my nic juice then I am not vaping and I am not breaking any laws... if I decide to sip my juice in a gaseous form but then hold it in long enough to fully condense and then exhale no vapor at all, am I breaking the law? if the definition of vaping includes the exhalation of vapor then no I am not really vaping. I am sipping my juice in a gaseous form allowing it to condense back to a liquid in my mouth and lungs and then nothing, no exhaling vapor, no smoke, legally I am not vaping, no one can ever accuse me of vaping or convict me of vaping because there is no vapor, I did not just vape, I sipped my juice, prove that I didn't? it's impossible, there are no witnesses to ever see me vape because I did not vape there was 0 visible smoke or vape emissions and the intent of the law is upheld, it was not confused with smoking and no one is bothered by it because there are no emissions which is what the law is designed to enforce. it's not fair to lump this into the same category as drinking alcohol from a soda can because the intent of the law is still being broken, the law is in place to prevent anyone from becoming intoxicated and you are still going to become intoxicated, it's not the same thing.
I enjoy vaping and I vape wherever I can but in places I can't vape I can still get my nic fix somewhat by sipping my juice and not exhaling any vapor at all, I am not vaping and no one can possibly get offended because I am not doing anything offensive at all and no one can claim that I am any more than a guy who is chewing on an unlit cigarette can be accused of smoking.
maybe stealth vaping isn't the right term, maybe it should be called taking a gaseous sip of my juice when I can't vape, so you guys can run around trying to get the law to allow you to blow smoke in Mcdonalds and the mall or whatever, I think your wasting your time but hey it's your time do what you want with it, me I'll continue to not vape wherever it is banned, instead I will just take a sip here and a sip there of my juice in gaseous form... the only reason it will be concealed or disguised is to avoid confusing anyone into thinking that I am actually vaping. without any smoke I am not vaping and no one could ever testify that they saw me vape unless I accidentally sip too much gaseous juice and allow some to escape in gaseous form, then I'd be vaping. with no vape emissions I am not vaping so you see I am not circumventing the law or cheating or hiding, I am simply changing the way I get my nic fix to fit within the law and I am not exhaling anything that the law is designed to prevent me from doing, what I'm doing is legal and courteous to those around me and is following the intent of the law, no offensive actions and no chargeable offence, no fighting and no handcuffs, hell no one knows or even cares what I'm doing and all is well as long as I'm offending no one and I'm still getting my nic fix when I am able to do so and within the intent of law in my opinion so there really is no need for all the stealth vaping hate, stealth vaping when done correctly and completely is really a way to actually follow the intent of the law, no one gives a crap if you sip your nic juice, just don't "vape" it and the intent of the law is being upheld in my opinion. no vape emissions and it's not vaping
Again, city website doesn't contain rule of "no vaping" in its prohibitions for this event. I think that needs to be clear in this discussion. Upon google search, I found this June 2014 article that I believe speaks directly to what we are discussing.
And here is quote from the article that pertains directly to the rationale for disallowing vaping at this event:
And here is quote from the article that pertains directly to the rationale for disallowing vaping at this event:
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