Article about vaping and 18650 in a mainstream media

[KurtVD]

For once, a well researched article, I was genuinely surprised!
The battery behind dangerous and deadly e-cigarette explosions
These batteries were never intended for use in e-cigarettes. They can cause deadly explosions.

 

[Rossum]

Article is decent but has some flaws. I'll come back to them later.

My initial reaction is: The fact that a major media outlet is running this is bad news. How long before some regulatory agency decides that loose 18650s are too dangerous to be sold to the public?

 

[KurtVD]

Article is decent but has some flaws. I'll come back to them later.

My initial reaction is: The fact that a major media outlet is running this is bad news. How long before some regulatory agency decides that loose 18650s are too dangerous to be sold to the public?

Then you haven’t read all of it, right? (I also skipped some paragraphs, it’s really long...). At the end there’s a paragraph or two about new rules being discussed or something.

EDIT: Specifically, li-ion batterys would have to be in a fixed case, ie removable batteries such as 18650s would be outlawed (except in battery packs, just like today)

 

[HigherStateD]

Boy, am I glad I don't use those... 20700s aren't even mentioned, in the first three paragraphs, where 98% of people will stop reading.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

20700s aren't even mentioned,

IMO, 20 and 21 700's and 26650's haven't been used long enough by a few idiots (RIP and graces though..) to prompt the govt to say they're not safe for anyone..

 

[Baditude]

How long before some regulatory agency decides that loose 18650s are too dangerous to be sold to the public?

The FDA (THE regulatory agency for vaping) is already aware of the issue and has worked with UL (Underwriters Laboratories) to come up with some safety guidelines. I posted this on ECF back in October 2018.

New proposed FDA and UL guidelines for e-cigarette manufacturers that will affect YOU.

So in effect, new regulations, if the above guidelines are adopted, would prohibit sale of mods (mechanical and regulated) that use removeable batteries.

Mods would be limited to those that use internal, non-removeable batteries. Essentually banning mechanical mods; no mech mod will ever pass FDA guidelines and no one is stupid enough to put an internal LiPo battery in a mech.

There was also some discussion of outlawing "open-style" juice attachments where the user can add their own e-liquid. Also discussion of banning juice attachments where the user can change the coils.

Boy, am I glad I don't use those... 20700s aren't even mentioned, in the first three paragraphs, where 98% of people will stop reading.

IMO, 20 and 21 700's and 26650's haven't been used long enough by a few idiots (RIP and graces though..) to prompt the govt to say they're not safe for anyone..

Do you really think they won't include 20700 et al size batteries if there is a ban on 18650's? I'm pretty sure if they ban 18650 batteries they will include all sizes of removeable external batteries. The very thing that makes 18650 batteries dangerous is present with the other external removeable batteries, regardless of their size.

To be clear, I don't believe the FDA can actually ban batteries, because other industries use them (flashlights and cordless power tools come to mind). However, they do have the authority to ban those vape devices that use removeable batteries.

By the way, the article linked by @KurtVD was very well researched and informative in my opinion. A rarity that a journalist these days would put in the time and effort to get the facts straight.

I'm interested in what @Mooch has to say about this issue.

 

[KurtVD]

To be clear, I don't believe the FDA can actually ban batteries, because other industries use them (flashlights and cordless power tools come to mind).

The FDA (or whatever other agency) can probably ban a certain ‘style’ of batteries for public sale if they’re deemed unsafe under certain conditions, like when overcharged. The power tools and other devices you mention either have built-in batteries (and thus should have safety circuitry to prevent these dangerous conditions), or if they’re removable batteries, they’re battery packs, never single cells, and as a pack they also have safety mechanisms built in.

Edit /Add: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t think of any other consumer device that uses single (or double, but without a BMS) removable 18650 (or 21700 etc) cells as a power source.

 

[Baditude]

The FDA (or whatever other agency) can probably ban a certain ‘style’ of batteries for public sale if they’re deemed unsafe under certain conditions, like when overcharged. The power tools and other devices you mention either have built-in batteries (and thus should have safety circuitry to prevent these dangerous conditions), or if they’re removable batteries, they’re battery packs, never single cells, and as a pack they also have safety mechanisms built in.

Edit /Add: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t think of any other consumer device that uses single (or double, but without a BMS) removable 18650 (or 21700 etc) cells as a power source.

Flashlight enthusiasts do. I've read that bicycle riders use them, too. I don't know if they are powering the bikes themselves (electric bicycles), or just used for lights on the bikes.

 

[KurtVD]

Flashlights do. I've read that bicycle riders use them, too. I don't know if they are powering the bikes themselves, or just used for lights on the bikes.

Yes, bicycle riders use them for their e-motors, it’s amazing how much range you can get from a few old laptop packs if you know what you are doing. But they should use a BMS to keep the pack balanced, although if they don’t it’s their problem, they built it themselves. If it’s commercially available it will definitely have a BMS.

I had to look up flashlights and you’re right, there are high end flashlights available with removable 18650 cells. How come we never hear of accidents with these? Some are waterproof, they literally look like pipe bombs..

 

[greek mule]

I had to look up flashlights and you’re right, there are high end flashlights available with removable 18650 cells. How come we never hear of accidents with these? Some are waterproof, they literally look like pipe bombs..

They don't draw much amperage obviously.

 

[Baditude]

I had to look up flashlights and you’re right, there are high end flashlights available with removable 18650 cells. How come we never hear of accidents with these? Some are waterproof, they literally look like pipe bombs..

It happens. Google "flashlight explosion" and see how many hits you get. Thing is, flashlights don't normally get near a user's mouth. Plus, we push our batteries harder than flashlight users do.

Ecigs are more controversial than are flashlights, so the headlines are more sensational to the readers.

LED Flashlight Explosions Leave Consumers, Workers With Severe ...

 

[Beamslider]

There are other devices that use 18650 removable batteries other than vape mods and flashlights. a quick search found this company and these products. I would bet there are several other devices using them.

18650 Devices - Products that Use 18650 Rechargeable Batteries

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I don't know how many folks have actually seen the insides of an 18650 battery so here is a link to the disassembly of a protected 18650.

Disassembly of some UltraFire batteries

 

[KurtVD]

Ecigs are more controversial than are flashlights, so the headlines are more sensational to the readers.

To be fair, mechanical mods are a lot more prone to accidents than flashlights.

 

[Rossum]

The FDA (or whatever other agency) can probably ban a certain ‘style’ of batteries for public sale if they’re deemed unsafe under certain conditions, like when overcharged.

I don't think the FDA can, unless those batteries are marketed for some purpose (like vaping) that's under their purview. But I suppose that an agency like the CPSC could.

 

[KurtVD]

I don't think the FDA can, unless those batteries are marketed for some purpose (like vaping) that's under their purview. But I suppose that an agency like the CPSC could.

True, definitely not the FDA. I’m not American, and I don’t even know all of our agencies here in Switzerland, but there’s at least one agency that can ban consumer goods for general safety reasons (not food), if they’re found dangerous, I’m pretty sure.

 

[Rossum]

For once, a well researched article, I was genuinely surprised!
The battery behind dangerous and deadly e-cigarette explosions
These batteries were never intended for use in e-cigarettes. They can cause deadly explosions.

Here are my two qualms with the "facts" presented by this article:

An 18650 is slightly larger than a AA battery. They are lithium-ion products that, according to Kerchner, are "robust cells that have a stainless steel can so they can withstand the rigors of outdoor power equipment."
-- George Kerchner, executive director of The Rechargeable Battery Association

Uhm, no. They're not stainless steel. They're plated steel. Scratch the plating off the end of one, expose it to some salt water, and see what happens. It will rust. Now maybe I'm being pedantic, but the executive director of The Rechargeable Battery Association should not be making incorrect statements like this.

Mechanical mods give consumers control over the intensity of their vaping experience.

Huh? The only control you have with a mech is the coil you use. Other than that, there is no way to "control the intensity".

 

[Rossum]

Then you haven’t read all of it, right? (I also skipped some paragraphs, it’s really long...). At the end there’s a paragraph or two about new rules being discussed or something.

EDIT: Specifically, li-ion batterys would have to be in a fixed case, ie removable batteries such as 18650s would be outlawed (except in battery packs, just like today)

Those are UL rules to approve a vaping device. There's no legal requirement for any device of any sort to have UL (or similar) approval. Many devices sold to consumers do though, because getting UL approval gives the supply chain from the manufacturer down to the retailer some degree of protection/defense from product liability. Many big retailers simply won't sell electrical devices that don't have UL or ETL approval.

In addition, the FDA has stated that having UL approval would certainly be helpful in getting a PMTA for a device. Reading between the lines, I would say it's required for a PMTA.

None of that is much of a concern to me personally. I've been vaping the same mech squonkers for years now and intend to continue doing so indefinitely. My concern is being able to get loose 18650 cells in the future. I'd hate to have to "harvest" them from power tool packs. Doing so would be a PITA, especially removing the spot-welded tabs.

 

[Rossum]

I had to look up flashlights and you’re right, there are high end flashlights available with removable 18650 cells. How come we never hear of accidents with these? Some are waterproof, they literally look like pipe bombs..

I have a few such flashlights. I actually worry about them more than my mods for that exact reason.

A li-ion cell is like an ammunition cartridge. If you manage to get a loose one to go off, it might injure you, but it won't kill you. It can only kill if there is something to contain and direct the force (the barrel of the gun). Ditto with an 18650. If one were to fail in one of my mods, I might get some burns (which would no doubt be very painful) but it wouldn't kill me, because the mods I use do not resemble "pipe bombs" in any way; it's simply not possible for pressure to build up in them.

 

[HigherStateD]

@Baditude I do see them trying to say all vape mods must be sealed units.

I also see mech mod kits being sold, much like 80% ar-15 lowers.

It's not a firearm, it's missing a few holes. Pay no attention to that drill press and jig.

As for batteries, I don't see how they could make them illegal out of a pack. Save for a BATFE rilling.