Attention Christian Vapor Members!
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IndieVisible, if you have a quarter and a dime....both are considered money. However, a dime is a dime and a quarter is a quarter and you cannot make a dime out of a quarter and vice versa. I don't agree with your explanation as it contradicts itself. But, you will hear truth in this forum and I think that's a great thing! You're searching for 'more,' and when you realize what the truth is, it's gonna knock your socks off!
When Max started this group, he intended it to be a place where people of like minds could come in and share with each other and celebrate our faith in Christ. He did not intend it to be a battleground for 'non-believers' to come in and start wars or insult us for our beliefs. As NG said, there's always the Outside for that kind of stuff.
I am a member of this group too and don't post often but I read as I get the chance. I do expect the group to remain within the spirit it was meant to be.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/christian-vapers/13050-forum-rules-please-read.html
Lu
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I think everything will be fine. So far nothing much has happened. This is a place for Christians, and I would really hope that if a non-christian does post, they will be respectful of our beliefs. Asking sincere questions is ok, but this is NOT a place to debate the existence of God or the Christian Faith. That's a given and I think most people will understand that, so no worries here.
This could actually be a blessing, maybe someone needs faith strengthening, has questions, personal struggles, or someone is on the fence and reading our posts might help someone out. Learning to give up our will and allowing God to do His thing is always good.
This could actually be a blessing, maybe someone needs faith strengthening, has questions, personal struggles, or someone is on the fence and reading our posts might help someone out. Learning to give up our will and allowing God to do His thing is always good.
An agnostic Christian is simply a honest open minded Christian who understands that the bible is not infallable as it was written by men. Religion created by men. An agnostic is of the opinion no one can really be absolutely sure, therefor creeds and dogma is not as important. A Christian agnostic is simply a agnostic who identifies closer to the actual values and teaching from Chrsitianity minus the dogma. No Christian litmus test required. True understanding of God who/what is infinite is beyond our limited capacity to fully understand, enter religion that attempts the impossible.
I also embrace science equally as it testifies to God's brilliance in many ways. In other words I do not accept the short order creation story which I consider a fable and severely limits GOD.
I"m still not really understanding what an agnostic christian is? Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
You know, this just came to me. But if someone sits on a fence, how uncomfortable that has to be for your backside. So to me, it would seem that you couldn't sit for very long comfortably, and would have to make up your mind quite sooner than later.
You know, this just came to me. But if someone sits on a fence, how uncomfortable that has to be for your backside. So to me, it would seem that you couldn't sit for very long comfortably, and would have to make up your mind quite sooner than later.
Amen to that! And hopefully sooner rather then later.
I don't mean to be contradictory but...
A. It doesn't really do any good to use scripture to prove that scripture is infallible. One either gets that by the Spirit or doesn't. There are huge numbers of Christians who don't believe the Bible is infallible.
B. If believing in the infallibility of the Bible is a condition for one to be a Christian, then the diciples were not Christians until the Bible was written. Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch. This scripture was about statements that were made before the Bible became the Bible... even before Acts was written.
C. Being a Christian is not about believing in the Bible. It is about believing in Christ. The Bible did not exist in the earliest gatherings of believers and yet they were called and called themselves Christians.
I respect what you think but the statement "If you don't choose to believe what christians believe, you have that right. Saying you're a christian isn't all that's needed to meet the definition of one. Christians believe the Bible is God's word and God's word is infallible." is inconsistent with scripture.
I personally believe in the infallibility of the Bible as far as it is consistent with the original text. But I certainly don't think I need to hold others to my beliefs. There is room for all believers to have revelation from the Holy Spirit in due time. If someone calls themselves Christian, and means it, then it is by the drawing of the Spirit of God that they do so.
I do agree, however, with your statement about playing nice. A hater doesn't need to be here.
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HyOnLyph: You wrote:
"...It doesn't really do any good to use scripture to prove that scripture is infallible..."Christ said it was. When you use corrupt things to prove what is incorruptable, all logic breaks down. Ponder this.
"...There are huge numbers of Christians who don't believe the Bible is infallible..."
How are they christians if they don't believe what Christ says?
"...If believing in the infallibility of the Bible is a condition for one to be a Christian, then the diciples were not Christians until the Bible was written..."
Did the 'christians' at Antioch believe the scriptures they already had before it became the full 'Bible' we have today? Then the OT is infallible. Before believers were called christians on the day of Pentecost, did they think scripture was fallible or did they preach it? When 'semantics' (i.e., 'scripture' vs 'bible', or 'believer' vs 'christian') are more important than ideology, truths become blurred.
"...Being a Christian is not about believing in the Bible. It is about believing in Christ..."
Brother, where does the story of Christ come from? He can't be separated from scripture because Jesus said they testify of him (Jn 5:39). He's the whole point of the Bible, the living word (Jn 1:1). If scriptures are incorrect we won't find Him. We may find 'gay Jesus', as one group claims, or 'skinhead Jesus' as another has. Consider the results of people not believing that all of the Bible is God breathed. Has it produced righteousness, or the opposite?
"...Christians believe the Bible is God's word and God's word is infallible."[/I] is inconsistent with scripture..."
Which scripture are you referring to? Where does it say God's word is sometimes incorrect (or incorrectly delivered by imperfect men)? More accurately, God's word being infallible is only inconsistent with the enemy's strategy.
"...I personally believe in the infallibility of the Bible...But I certainly don't think I need to hold others to my beliefs..."
Neither do I, until they start talking 'racist Jesus', or some other lie that drags men into hell. That's why you & I dialogue, because:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16
Neither of us knew 10 years ago what we knew today because over time we learn things, if someone teaches us. The Holy Spirit sometimes does His work through us:
"preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." 2 Tim 4:2
Which word should we preach, reprove, rebuke, exhort or instruct with? An imperfect word written by men? The enemy tries to tell believers 'Your sword is broken, you don't need one to win this battle'. The Holy Spirit proclaims "I gave you a sharp 2 edged sword - use it!"
"...If someone calls themselves Christian, and means it, then it is by the drawing of the Spirit of God that they do so..."
I agree. So how does the Spirit of God bring faith? (Ro 10:17)
Brother, you sound like a true believer to me. In a nutshell what I hope you've understood me saying is some fundamentals are critical to our creed. The inerrancy of scripture is one of those, as it's nearly impossible to learn of Jesus without them.
Often I'll point unbelievers to the study of Gemmatria and it's convincing effect on Isaac Newton, Neils Bohr & other great minds. As they study on their own they learn about translations, original languages & a host of things which build their own 'systematic theology'. They'll ask theirselves "What if I can't trust the Bible? Where can I find truth or wether God is real?"
Friend, the world needs that book. It's not forcing our beliefs on people to advertise it well.
"...It doesn't really do any good to use scripture to prove that scripture is infallible..."Christ said it was. When you use corrupt things to prove what is incorruptable, all logic breaks down. Ponder this.
"...There are huge numbers of Christians who don't believe the Bible is infallible..."
How are they christians if they don't believe what Christ says?
"...If believing in the infallibility of the Bible is a condition for one to be a Christian, then the diciples were not Christians until the Bible was written..."
Did the 'christians' at Antioch believe the scriptures they already had before it became the full 'Bible' we have today? Then the OT is infallible. Before believers were called christians on the day of Pentecost, did they think scripture was fallible or did they preach it? When 'semantics' (i.e., 'scripture' vs 'bible', or 'believer' vs 'christian') are more important than ideology, truths become blurred.
"...Being a Christian is not about believing in the Bible. It is about believing in Christ..."
Brother, where does the story of Christ come from? He can't be separated from scripture because Jesus said they testify of him (Jn 5:39). He's the whole point of the Bible, the living word (Jn 1:1). If scriptures are incorrect we won't find Him. We may find 'gay Jesus', as one group claims, or 'skinhead Jesus' as another has. Consider the results of people not believing that all of the Bible is God breathed. Has it produced righteousness, or the opposite?
"...Christians believe the Bible is God's word and God's word is infallible."[/I] is inconsistent with scripture..."
Which scripture are you referring to? Where does it say God's word is sometimes incorrect (or incorrectly delivered by imperfect men)? More accurately, God's word being infallible is only inconsistent with the enemy's strategy.
"...I personally believe in the infallibility of the Bible...But I certainly don't think I need to hold others to my beliefs..."
Neither do I, until they start talking 'racist Jesus', or some other lie that drags men into hell. That's why you & I dialogue, because:
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness" 2 Tim 3:16
Neither of us knew 10 years ago what we knew today because over time we learn things, if someone teaches us. The Holy Spirit sometimes does His work through us:
"preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction." 2 Tim 4:2
Which word should we preach, reprove, rebuke, exhort or instruct with? An imperfect word written by men? The enemy tries to tell believers 'Your sword is broken, you don't need one to win this battle'. The Holy Spirit proclaims "I gave you a sharp 2 edged sword - use it!"
"...If someone calls themselves Christian, and means it, then it is by the drawing of the Spirit of God that they do so..."
I agree. So how does the Spirit of God bring faith? (Ro 10:17)
Brother, you sound like a true believer to me. In a nutshell what I hope you've understood me saying is some fundamentals are critical to our creed. The inerrancy of scripture is one of those, as it's nearly impossible to learn of Jesus without them.
Often I'll point unbelievers to the study of Gemmatria and it's convincing effect on Isaac Newton, Neils Bohr & other great minds. As they study on their own they learn about translations, original languages & a host of things which build their own 'systematic theology'. They'll ask theirselves "What if I can't trust the Bible? Where can I find truth or wether God is real?"
Friend, the world needs that book. It's not forcing our beliefs on people to advertise it well.
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I to would like to join. What a blessing, I didn't know about this group, and yes God works in mysteries ways.
Brother, you sound like a true believer to me. In a nutshell what I hope you've understood me saying is some fundamentals are critical to our creed. The inerrancy of scripture is one of those, as it's nearly impossible to learn of Jesus without them.
Often I'll point unbelievers to the study of Gemmatria and it's convincing effect on Isaac Newton, Neils Bohr & other great minds. As they study on their own they learn about translations, original languages & a host of things which build their own 'systematic theology'. They'll ask theirselves "What if I can't trust the Bible? Where can I find truth or wether God is real?"
Friend, the world needs that book. It's not forcing our beliefs on people to advertise it well.[/QUOTE]
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Not really intersted in debating theology on a forum unless others are interested too. So I'll probably not go much farther than this response. I know I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not really trying to or worried about it. If others are interested in a line by line response, let me know and I'll reply publicly. My main issue is with judging someone as a non-Christian when they say they are, just because they don't believe in the Bible as infallible.
I understand your passion. The only thing I have problem with, is your tendency to define a Christian according to your religious views. It is exclusionary. Obviously, the word Christian by definition is about being a believer in Christ. But to put further limitations or to take it beyond what one believes in their own private heart, is to subscribe to "religion". If a person is inclined to call himself a Christian, then who are we to publicly declare that he isn't? As Christians, we worship God. But if we worship the Bible, place it above the author, then we are guilty of worshiping the creation above the creator.
re: the fallibility of the Bible, your logic is circular (I think that's the term). Only by believing in the infallibility of the Bible can one hear the Bible as absolute. If one doesn't believe the Bible is infallible, then there is always the arguement that it "ain't necessarily so". It is useless to quote The Bible at them to prove the Bible is infallible.
I personally believe in scripture. You can quote scripture all you want to a non-believer and it will not return void, but specific to the discussion of the fallibility of the Bible, it doesn't hold water. That either comes by the Spirit or it doesn't. The proof of God's word is either evidenced by love in us or it's not.
I don't really have time to research it again but if my memory serves me correctly, there isn't much evidence (if any) that those gentiles that Paul went to (including those in Antioch) had the OT or believed in the OT (except as the Jewish believers tried to force upon them). One can pretty much conclude that they had no "Bible" except as time when by... they had letters from Paul. They may have reveared the letters, but there is no evidence that indicates they thought the letters were devine or to be worshipped. As a matter of fact, Paul clearly made an attempt to protect them from the Law so that their understanding of the Love of God (Grace) would not be tainted. That is why he confronted Peter.
The point is, one does not need to believe in the infallibility of the Bible in order to be a Christain. If that were true, then most of us would either have never gotten very far in our faith or been classified as non-believers during the "faith crisis" moments of our life. It is part of the Christain walk to have moments of wondering if scripture is true and for there to be continued revelation of the Truth as the Spirit works in our life. God is plenty big enough to handle our questions and doubts. He has no problem with our questions. He isn't threatened by our doubt. To judge others as non-Christians because they either don't know or haven't received a revelation of the power of the Bible, is inconsistent with the Bible we believe in.
Respectfully, believing in the infallibility of the Bible may be part of "our creed" as you define it. (which, to me, is religion). I don't worry much about "our creed". I'm concerned about relationship with God and with others. Those are the commandments that Christ gave to us. To simplify..."Love God and Love others." A Creed is a definition of what it takes to be part of the religion. I'm not at all interested in being part of the religion. I just love God. And I want to love others more each day. I am so grateful for Christ's sacrifice for us and I lean upon the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth. "Our creed" may be flawed. Our God is not.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Often I'll point unbelievers to the study of Gemmatria and it's convincing effect on Isaac Newton, Neils Bohr & other great minds. As they study on their own they learn about translations, original languages & a host of things which build their own 'systematic theology'. They'll ask theirselves "What if I can't trust the Bible? Where can I find truth or wether God is real?"
Friend, the world needs that book. It's not forcing our beliefs on people to advertise it well.[/QUOTE]
------------------
Not really intersted in debating theology on a forum unless others are interested too. So I'll probably not go much farther than this response. I know I'm not going to change your mind. I'm not really trying to or worried about it. If others are interested in a line by line response, let me know and I'll reply publicly. My main issue is with judging someone as a non-Christian when they say they are, just because they don't believe in the Bible as infallible.
I understand your passion. The only thing I have problem with, is your tendency to define a Christian according to your religious views. It is exclusionary. Obviously, the word Christian by definition is about being a believer in Christ. But to put further limitations or to take it beyond what one believes in their own private heart, is to subscribe to "religion". If a person is inclined to call himself a Christian, then who are we to publicly declare that he isn't? As Christians, we worship God. But if we worship the Bible, place it above the author, then we are guilty of worshiping the creation above the creator.
re: the fallibility of the Bible, your logic is circular (I think that's the term). Only by believing in the infallibility of the Bible can one hear the Bible as absolute. If one doesn't believe the Bible is infallible, then there is always the arguement that it "ain't necessarily so". It is useless to quote The Bible at them to prove the Bible is infallible.
I personally believe in scripture. You can quote scripture all you want to a non-believer and it will not return void, but specific to the discussion of the fallibility of the Bible, it doesn't hold water. That either comes by the Spirit or it doesn't. The proof of God's word is either evidenced by love in us or it's not.
I don't really have time to research it again but if my memory serves me correctly, there isn't much evidence (if any) that those gentiles that Paul went to (including those in Antioch) had the OT or believed in the OT (except as the Jewish believers tried to force upon them). One can pretty much conclude that they had no "Bible" except as time when by... they had letters from Paul. They may have reveared the letters, but there is no evidence that indicates they thought the letters were devine or to be worshipped. As a matter of fact, Paul clearly made an attempt to protect them from the Law so that their understanding of the Love of God (Grace) would not be tainted. That is why he confronted Peter.
The point is, one does not need to believe in the infallibility of the Bible in order to be a Christain. If that were true, then most of us would either have never gotten very far in our faith or been classified as non-believers during the "faith crisis" moments of our life. It is part of the Christain walk to have moments of wondering if scripture is true and for there to be continued revelation of the Truth as the Spirit works in our life. God is plenty big enough to handle our questions and doubts. He has no problem with our questions. He isn't threatened by our doubt. To judge others as non-Christians because they either don't know or haven't received a revelation of the power of the Bible, is inconsistent with the Bible we believe in.
Respectfully, believing in the infallibility of the Bible may be part of "our creed" as you define it. (which, to me, is religion). I don't worry much about "our creed". I'm concerned about relationship with God and with others. Those are the commandments that Christ gave to us. To simplify..."Love God and Love others." A Creed is a definition of what it takes to be part of the religion. I'm not at all interested in being part of the religion. I just love God. And I want to love others more each day. I am so grateful for Christ's sacrifice for us and I lean upon the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth. "Our creed" may be flawed. Our God is not.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
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HyOnLyph: You don't have to define anything, until you actually teach Jesus.
Love is the prime directive, and God is love. As we grow in love we need to be taught, because we don't come equipped with love, even towards God (1 Jn 4:10). Love is received as a fruit of the Spirit. Faith also, doesn't happen by hearing the word of man, but the word of Christ (Ro 10:17).
So how can we receive the fruit of the Spirit and hear the word of Christ?
" How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" Ro 10:14
There may be saved who have never heard of the Bible (Mt 25:37-39), but for most the above will be true.
Exclude the Bible and all we have is 'logical' people's opinions (the REAL definition of religion). If one says it's logical and another says it's circular logic, the result is confusion. If one uses a word and another says that word means something else 'TO ME' (semantics), truth is blurred. Does that sound like advancing the kingdom, or seeking the vanity of 'being right'?
In today's venacular, being a 'Christian' does mean believing what Christ says. If Jesus is our only teacher, very quickly we must decide if His words have been changed in the Bible by humans or we'll make up our own religion. People who heard Him said no one ever taught with such authority (Mk 1:22). Adding doubt to the accuracy of scriptures is the enemies' work, not ours. Anyone can create doubt, but few have been called to teach truth. How are they equipped? The Bible (2 Ti 3:16-17). Without it, you're on your own with only your opinions.
BTW, 'creed' also has a definition. 'Beliefs commonly held'. It's not judgemental to say I'm a member of ECF, we hold a common belief that ecigarettes are cool. The enemy wants to divide, hence so many who don't go to church or believe the Bible can be trusted. I merely try to present what Christians who are progressing in their walk commonly believe. That's not judging anyone, it's teaching. It can be accepted, or rejected. The 'revelation of the power of the Bible' that you spoke of, is all I'm presenting. Part of it's power is to define terms accurately (Hb 4:12). It's full of 'definitions', if we can accept them.
I'm glad your focus is on love. Once people sense your love, lead 'em to Jesus. I'm pretty sure this will involve explaining to them why they can trust the Bible and how to study it at some point. I'd hate to answer to God that I told a new believer they didn't need to trust the Bible.
Love is the prime directive, and God is love. As we grow in love we need to be taught, because we don't come equipped with love, even towards God (1 Jn 4:10). Love is received as a fruit of the Spirit. Faith also, doesn't happen by hearing the word of man, but the word of Christ (Ro 10:17).
So how can we receive the fruit of the Spirit and hear the word of Christ?
" How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?" Ro 10:14
There may be saved who have never heard of the Bible (Mt 25:37-39), but for most the above will be true.
Exclude the Bible and all we have is 'logical' people's opinions (the REAL definition of religion). If one says it's logical and another says it's circular logic, the result is confusion. If one uses a word and another says that word means something else 'TO ME' (semantics), truth is blurred. Does that sound like advancing the kingdom, or seeking the vanity of 'being right'?
In today's venacular, being a 'Christian' does mean believing what Christ says. If Jesus is our only teacher, very quickly we must decide if His words have been changed in the Bible by humans or we'll make up our own religion. People who heard Him said no one ever taught with such authority (Mk 1:22). Adding doubt to the accuracy of scriptures is the enemies' work, not ours. Anyone can create doubt, but few have been called to teach truth. How are they equipped? The Bible (2 Ti 3:16-17). Without it, you're on your own with only your opinions.
BTW, 'creed' also has a definition. 'Beliefs commonly held'. It's not judgemental to say I'm a member of ECF, we hold a common belief that ecigarettes are cool. The enemy wants to divide, hence so many who don't go to church or believe the Bible can be trusted. I merely try to present what Christians who are progressing in their walk commonly believe. That's not judging anyone, it's teaching. It can be accepted, or rejected. The 'revelation of the power of the Bible' that you spoke of, is all I'm presenting. Part of it's power is to define terms accurately (Hb 4:12). It's full of 'definitions', if we can accept them.
I'm glad your focus is on love. Once people sense your love, lead 'em to Jesus. I'm pretty sure this will involve explaining to them why they can trust the Bible and how to study it at some point. I'd hate to answer to God that I told a new believer they didn't need to trust the Bible.
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