Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Jman8]

so reading into it further than what is there is your bases? and calling them butthurt implies i am being superior? your making up your own definition of elitism again...

Yes, calling them "butthurt ......" with the dots representing a term that I'm thinking is a derogatory term for one that is different/less than what you are, on this topic. Just like calling them "greedy twits" does, which is where the name calling starts. Hoping they lose everything in their fight punctuates the elitism claim. You express utter contempt for them even while it is plausible that all those terms you use in OP could apply to you. Or, just to be clear on the claim I'm making now with regards to OP, do you feel that you are equal to a "greedy twit" or superior to one (better than one)? Likewise, do you think if it is found that you are in fact a greedy twit yourself, that you too deserve to lose everything?

and again I DO NOT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE saying what my hopes are in this aspect does not imply anything but my hopes.

And what does 'speaking for everyone' have to do with expressed opinions that appear to be claims of elitism? I'm not getting that part. Perhaps someone at your level could explain that to someone at my lower level of understanding.

and i like how you left out bits, i said how mod makers are already doing this cause like the old saying goes, cant beat'em join'em. with companies already doing it and selling cheap all they are going to do IN MY OPINION is waste the money they made when they could be making new cheaper products and moving more of them in this vastly growing market.

Because making new cheaper products is the better way, yes?

and the reason i pointed out the company's like nike ext is because im sure they can afford lawyers miles beyond what they mod makers can so again i ask, what makes them think they are going to win? why can you only avoid this question or divert by calling me elitist? or is asking this question to elitist?

So, they aren't greedy enough (yet) to be able to actually win the fight that takes lots of money to win, but just greedy enough to be called 'Big Authentic' and having the audacity to fight for the principle of protecting (expensive) authentic products.

I think they ought to win on principle (of design copyrights and the simple fact that clones intentionally imitate other products). I think they could win, but forever face uphill battle because clones are going to continue. I think bringing the lawsuit puts clone makers on notice, even while some clone makers are likely oblivious to the lawsuit.

 

[Jman8]

your post #894, very elitist

I would say that post is a little elitist. It is my opinion, and it strikes me as accurate. But there is inference that pro-cloners are beneath pro-authentic persons. As I said, the elitism charge goes two ways and starts with energy found in OP.

 

[imsoenthused]

Subjective morality once again polarizes two sides of an issue creating a thread that never ends... It's not like anybody is convincing the other side of anything. Both sides understand each other, so there's no education going on. Just the same tired arguments pointlessly rephrased, ad nauseam. The internet in all its Special Olympics glory.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

Yes, calling them "butthurt ......" with the dots representing a term that I'm thinking is a derogatory term for one that is different/less than what you are, on this topic. Just like calling them "greedy twits" does, which is where the name calling starts. Hoping they lose everything in their fight punctuates the elitism claim. You express utter contempt for them even while it is plausible that all those terms you use in OP could apply to you. Or, just to be clear on the claim I'm making now with regards to OP, do you feel that you are equal to a "greedy twit" or superior to one (better than one)? Likewise, do you think if it is found that you are in fact a greedy twit yourself, that you too deserve to lose everything?



And what does 'speaking for everyone' have to do with expressed opinions that appear to be claims of elitism? I'm not getting that part. Perhaps someone at your level could explain that to someone at my lower level of understanding.



Because making new cheaper products is the better way, yes?



So, they aren't greedy enough (yet) to be able to actually win the fight that takes lots of money to win, but just greedy enough to be called 'Big Authentic' and having the audacity to fight for the principle of protecting (expensive) authentic products.

I think they ought to win on principle (of design copyrights and the simple fact that clones intentionally imitate other products). I think they could win, but forever face uphill battle because clones are going to continue. I think bringing the lawsuit puts clone makers on notice, even while some clone makers are likely oblivious to the lawsuit.

if you view name calling as "elitism" then ok, i guess it can be but i view it as what it is, name calling.

because you keep saying the "pro-clone crowd" as if what i say goes for everyone who has or may buy a clone, which is not the case.

yes it is, if they can make the same type of product cheaper then they can make more of them to sell and possibly make the same amount of money they could with few high priced ones, my opinion again that's just how i see it.

it has nothing to do with the greed again your focusing on the name calling towards these company's while still avoiding the question, several company's with a lot more resources are not able to stop it, they have all copyrights/trademarks/patents or whatever they need in all countries needed yet are not able to stop it, so again what makes them, you, or the "pro-authentic crowd" think they can win?

 

[nukleusx]

i gave enough info in the OP if you would like to know that feel free to look it up, i personally don't care who they are the only authentic company i refuse to ever buy from even if they make the greatest mod in the world and sell it for $1 is Kryptonite. i believe one of the company's are Caravela but i don't remember who they are (3 i believe) and really don't care because without the legal protection they should have gotten they aren't going to do anything to stop clones of there products, i just view it as silly to waste the money they did make on a futile attempt to stop clones of their product.

edit: also the link i posted to twisteds facebook page was moderated out cause he curses, so really i cant post a link to him you have to look it up but im sure by now there are lots of places this is being talked about.

I keep reading all this jazz about Kryptonite this, Kryptonite that. In the ECC video the owner of the company is not present. Weather or not he had those goons do what they did, I personally do not know. What I know about the owner is he is a standup guy just trying to make a living. I was at my local B&M and was in the market for a mod, and he was in there talking to the owner/managers of the shop and I got a few minutes of conversation in with him regarding his mod. He sold me on it without even having to try. Just going over the components, the manufacturing process, features, etc.

Fast forward a month or so, the first time I disassembled the switch, I had a mishap where I broke one of the magnets. Contacted their customer support via the website and had a reply within 12 hours. You may say "big deal, anyone can do that". Well, the email I sent was at 2am, Labor Day morning. He replied around noon, on a holiday. I had a replacement magnet by 10pm that same night.

That is just a positive example of this particular company, whom everyone seems to be badmouthing because of a happening that the exact exact details are unknown and speculation by anyone who wants to take shots is happening.

My on that.

Because my wife almost died. Twice. I was taking care of 2 grandchildren after they lost their parents. And now my wife is sick with the most deadly form of cancer. All in the last 4 years.

Answered? Good. Next question.

Differences in the subject matter of this thread aside, my condolences to you and your family for your losses. Prayers and thoughts sent your way for your wife. I lost my step sister to some nasty nasty cancer/disease recently (we were not close; yet still this happening was a real eye opener to how it effects everyone around the immediate family) and it's tough. I had to console my step mother around the time, plenty of times just being there for her, and helping out however I could around hers/my dad's household.

...I don't think Authentics have the real room to charge that much (in reference to 340$ and 240$) because the market is still fairly young and there hasn't been time for any one brand to be the "nike" or what not of the vaping world...

However once you use one of these particular mods, weather it be a clone or authentic, and then compare it to one of the more base/entry level mods; lets take for example a Stingray (yeah I am a little biased toward them ) vs a Kamry K-100. The Stingray is indeed a Nike compared to the K-100 being a wal-mart brand shoe. I type this from experience, as I own both. Having said that, I understand where this pricing comes from.

Edit: After reading more posts I saw that you were talking about Nike from business/law standpoint. My bad

...i don't see the appeal to the small tubes and mods having sections..

I for one am a 18650 kind of guy as well. Though I know plenty of people (both on this forum and IRL) whom like 350 & 490/500. It's all a preference thing. Go take a look at the "High End Mechanicals" thread in the APV section. Plenty of guys in there like to run smaller setups, weather it is for obtaining smaller size or it just fits their needs.

 

[graffiti]

and honestly i don't see the appeal to the small tubes and mods having sections, they would look cleaner if they were one piece and from what i have seen in my 4 months of vaping is most people use 18650 batteries anyways, my vtc5 18650 batteries last about 4 hours before i notice a drop and i think that's not long enough, i wont even touch an 18350 lol. and if its cheaper to make them as one tube and with most people using 18650 then why not do it? at least for the non-telescopic mods.

Look at vaperev, or any website that carries authentic pieces. They've always got tons of oddball sizes: 16340, 14500, 18350. Nothing (or close to nothing) in 18650. You're not the only one that feels that way.

 

[Marc411]

Man you guys are good, this kept going all night. Thanks for the interesting read over a cup of coffee.

Sorry about the k. 'k? You can call me Koldrake if you like.

Coldrake, I've always respected your post's and that hasn't changed. And you turned me onto that really cool storage case.

Jesus died, he isn't going to ever walk again, ever.

Otherwise good post, accurate enough.

Maurice

Always a big fan of your threads too Maurice and I don't think you're an elitist. Sometimes intelligence gets confused with elitism.

You all realize this is becoming a circular thread don't you? Everyone should just start posting a link to the OP because that how far the thread has gone.

It was a good conversation, some very interesting information and opinions. You folks have fun dancing in this thread.

 

[retird]

A good cup of coffee and a lot of overnight posts...the following quoted posts are given only as examples that led to my opinion as stated at the end of this post...

so i read on vapingwithtwisted420's facebook that the authentic manufacturers are going to go after china and any other clone manufacturers/retailers to stop them from cloning so they can continue to charge an obscene amount.

generally the comments say how multi-billion dollar companies like Rolex and Nike ext haven't been able to stop china clones. but these butthurt ...... think they are gonna make a difference legally instead of doing things like outsourcing to china's factory's and getting the product made cheaper with just as good if not better quality and in turn make it pointless to buy a clone over an authentic. Beyondvape wised up and is doing this.

here's twisted's Stingray X clone vs authentic video and they both have the same voltage drop but the clone has a little more detail.
[MODERATED video out due to language]

you can get 10 feet of copper pipe for around $20, you can buy top caps and fire buttons for about $10 each, a tube threader is about $80 or you can walk into any machine shop and they will probably thread it for you for free. so for the investment of $80 on a tube threader you can make "Authentic" mods for about $25 each yet these manufacturers/retailers charge $150 - $500 depending on where and what you get and most of the time you get put on a wait list.

i thought the whole point of vaping was to have a better alternative than smoking while also sticking it to big tobacco? well i guess its time to start calling these authentic manufacturers "Big Authentic" even though they have nowhere near the clout they think they do lol.

its 100% obvious these authentic makers were never in it to save lives or help anybody only to line their own pockets.

im starting my new job next week and my first purchase was going to be an authentic and had a few choices in mind but after reading all that, ain't gonna happen, they want to be greedy twits then im sticking with clones.

heres a link to Twisted420's facebook if you want to check it out
[MODERATED due to language on pages]

if this rant offended anyone i do apologize, unless your an authentic maker in which case GOOD! hope you get[Moderated] by your lawyers who know its a losing battle and just want your money, hope you lose everything!

In the OP it states the opinion is a rant.... now to the overnight posts..

so having an opinion is now elitism? or ranting?
i think you don't know what the word means and are throwing it around to get a rise out of someone.

Answered your own question in your OP...

your post #894, very elitist

opinion called "highlighted words"...

you seam to regard your "Provari" with superiority, or as you would say, "Elitism".

opinion called "highlighted word"

if you view name calling as "elitism" then ok, i guess it can be but i view it as what it is, name calling.

because you keep saying the "pro-clone crowd" as if what i say goes for everyone who has or may buy a clone, which is not the case.

yes it is, if they can make the same type of product cheaper then they can make more of them to sell and possibly make the same amount of money they could with few high priced ones, my opinion again that's just how i see it.

it has nothing to do with the greed again your focusing on the name calling towards these company's while still avoiding the question, several company's with a lot more resources are not able to stop it, they have all copyrights/trademarks/patents or whatever they need in all countries needed yet are not able to stop it, so again what makes them, you, or the "pro-authentic crowd" think they can win?

Stated in this post that "Elit..." is name calling....I refuse to use the word "Elit..." in my posts.

Now to the main reason for my post..... my opinion that name calling adds nothing to the conversation but fosters increased emotion which detracts from the content of the posts and the debate of those having different opinions.

Gotta get another cup of Joe.... have a great day....

 

[bluecat]

Here are the original posts here where the poster used the words thief, theft, or thieves...... pretty easy to see where it came from....

Last time I do this for you. Please go back to post #145. It is the first time theft is brought up. If I am wrong I believe you only have 5 pages prior to read through.

Also have a look at post #260.

If you would also post the quotes that those were responses to, you will see those are responding to something.

You are right on one thing. Pretty easy to see where it came from. You just aren't looking for it through neutral eyes.

 

[retird]

Last time I do this for you. Please go back to post #145. It is the first time theft is brought up. If I am wrong I believe you only have 5 pages prior to read through.

Also have a look at post #260.

If you would also post the quotes that those were responses to, you will see those are responding to something.

You are right on one thing. Pretty easy to see where it came from. You just aren't looking for it through neutral eyes.

Thanks......for that...edited this as had wrong post in mind... guess I missed a few post.... LOL

 

[skoony]

much has been said in defense of clones by such statements as, i can not afford the original and,
we are all vapers and should be helping each other.

as to the first i want a Cadillac and can't afford it.
my choices,i'll have to buy that KIA,i can afford that.
it doesn't guzzle as much juice anyway.

i am all for helping my fellow man when i can.
i can't however fault a commercial enterprise for not
acting like the Salvation Army.
the industry is maturing and as such will start to make,...wait for it...,
mature business decisions.

regards
mike

 

[stevegmu]

How can one possibly be expected to blow clouds without a cheap mech clone and topper?...

 

[Jman8]

I find this thread being informative, and Coldrake's posts being one that contain pertinent information to this topic and to what a lawsuit will entail. Cloning and persons in the market for clones are engaged in non-deceptive counterfeiting. That is my legal opinion, and I believe suit will be arguing for plaintiffs on that point while bringing some aspect of design copyright into the central argument.

The thread is interesting because it appears to have two compelling sides where there isn't room for much gray area. Pick a side and make the best case you can, resorting to emotional language if need be. I am more in the middle on this issue than the first time I entered into a clone debate thread. Because now I see cloning as a topic that suggests there is no way that FDA or government can get rid of vaping market as other politically aware vapers often suggest. Current market for cloning virtually guarantees what would be black market for vaping products should things go in that sort of direction.

If non-deceptive counterfeiting is counterfeiting, or degree thereof, then I think there is degree of theft going on with buyers in that market. They are not being deceived about what is going on, and know if the design of the product was possibly illegally obtained. Thus it is similar, though not the same, as one who pays another to engage in theft with idea that the payee will benefit from whatever is stolen.

As I am one that has at some point in my life engaged in theft of some sort, then I think if the label needs to be mentioned, I am very okay being in the crowd of 'thieves.' And as I can see buying clones in a heavily restricted vaping market (here in the USA), then I am happy that this market, that arguably caters to this unusual form of thievery, exists.

so again what makes them, you, or the "pro-authentic crowd" think they can win?

Because winning, I don't think, will be defined by ending all cloning. Instead, it will be sending a message that cloning isn't as innocent and wonderful for all involved as perhaps some were lead to believe. And like any lawsuit, it will stand a chance to slow momentum in a particular direction, and have potential buyers think twice about the legality and ethics of what they are, or will be, engaged in. It is similar to the other form of counterfeiting, the deceptive kind. That's never going to stop, so one could argue, why even try? Or no law against murder has prevented all murders, so why even have a law against murder? Choose a perceived crime against humanity, any crime, and then let's see if the law that currently exists, or the ethical arguments against that activity have prevented that from occurring. I would say in likely all cases, it has not. But enforcement of laws likely does have a whole bunch of people reconsider things, and yet also goes unnoticed as reconsidering is often unobservable.

Courts may decide against the plaintiffs in this case while also making a noticeable judgment that puts cloners and clone buyers on notice. That would be winning from pro-authentic side. And courts may say non-deceptive counterfeiting is inevitable and that the court completely sides with the defendants, and that would be losing from the pro-authentic side. As I don't see that occurring, then I wonder how pro-clone side thinks it can succeed? Would be like if there was a pro-killing side claiming that because another murder happened somewhere today, that side is still "winning."

 

[retird]

How can one possibly be expected to blow clouds without a cheap mech clone and topper?...

You got me.... no mech mods (authentic or clone) here but a bunch of self made VW mods (and 1 authentic VW mod..3 years old) blowing clouds/great flavor... I guess you could say my self made mods are clones because I used a 9 volt battery box in the builds which others have used too or you could say they are authentic because of my design.... (not starting another debate... just saying)

 

[retird]

I find this thread being informative, and Coldrake's posts being one that contain pertinent information to this topic and to what a lawsuit will entail. Cloning and persons in the market for clones are engaged in non-deceptive counterfeiting. That is my legal opinion, and I believe suit will be arguing for plaintiffs on that point while bringing some aspect of design copyright into the central argument.

The thread is interesting because it appears to have two compelling sides where there isn't room for much gray area. Pick a side and make the best case you can, resorting to emotional language if need be. I am more in the middle on this issue than the first time I entered into a clone debate thread. Because now I see cloning as a topic that suggests there is no way that FDA or government can get rid of vaping market as other politically aware vapers often suggest. Current market for cloning virtually guarantees what would be black market for vaping products should things go in that sort of direction.

If non-deceptive counterfeiting is counterfeiting, or degree thereof, then I think there is degree of theft going on with buyers in that market. They are not being deceived about what is going on, and know if the design of the product was possibly illegally obtained. Thus it is similar, though not the same, as one who pays another to engage in theft with idea that the payee will benefit from whatever is stolen.

As I am one that has at some point in my life engaged in theft of some sort, then I think if the label needs to be mentioned, I am very okay being in the crowd of 'thieves.' And as I can see buying clones in a heavily restricted vaping market (here in the USA), then I am happy that this market, that arguably caters to this unusual form of thievery, exists.



Because winning, I don't think, will be defined by ending all cloning. Instead, it will be sending a message that cloning isn't as innocent and wonderful for all involved as perhaps some were lead to believe. And like any lawsuit, it will stand a chance to slow momentum in a particular direction, and have potential buyers think twice about the legality and ethics of what they are, or will be, engaged in. It is similar to the other form of counterfeiting, the deceptive kind. That's never going to stop, so one could argue, why even try? Or no law against murder has prevented all murders, so why even have a law against murder? Choose a perceived crime against humanity, any crime, and then let's see if the law that currently exists, or the ethical arguments against that activity have prevented that from occurring. I would say in likely all cases, it has not. But enforcement of laws likely does have a whole bunch of people reconsider things, and yet also goes unnoticed as reconsidering is often unobservable.

Courts may decide against the plaintiffs in this case while also making a noticeable judgment that puts cloners and clone buyers on notice. That would be winning from pro-authentic side. And courts may say non-deceptive counterfeiting is inevitable and that the court completely sides with the defendants, and that would be losing from the pro-authentic side. As I don't see that occurring, then I wonder how pro-clone side thinks it can succeed? Would be like if there was a pro-killing side claiming that because another murder happened somewhere today, that side is still "winning."

Well thought out post..... only thing I would mention is that when the lawsuits started there were vendors who stocked a bunch of counterfeit clones with logos that went underground (black market) for fear of being sued to unload them.... point being the black market effect happened already....

 

[bluecat]

I find this thread being informative, and Coldrake's posts being one that contain pertinent information to this topic and to what a lawsuit will entail. Cloning and persons in the market for clones are engaged in non-deceptive counterfeiting. That is my legal opinion, and I believe suit will be arguing for plaintiffs on that point while bringing some aspect of design copyright into the central argument.

The thread is interesting because it appears to have two compelling sides where there isn't room for much gray area. Pick a side and make the best case you can, resorting to emotional language if need be. I am more in the middle on this issue than the first time I entered into a clone debate thread. Because now I see cloning as a topic that suggests there is no way that FDA or government can get rid of vaping market as other politically aware vapers often suggest. Current market for cloning virtually guarantees what would be black market for vaping products should things go in that sort of direction.

If non-deceptive counterfeiting is counterfeiting, or degree thereof, then I think there is degree of theft going on with buyers in that market. They are not being deceived about what is going on, and know if the design of the product was possibly illegally obtained. Thus it is similar, though not the same, as one who pays another to engage in theft with idea that the payee will benefit from whatever is stolen.

As I am one that has at some point in my life engaged in theft of some sort, then I think if the label needs to be mentioned, I am very okay being in the crowd of 'thieves.' And as I can see buying clones in a heavily restricted vaping market (here in the USA), then I am happy that this market, that arguably caters to this unusual form of thievery, exists.



Because winning, I don't think, will be defined by ending all cloning. Instead, it will be sending a message that cloning isn't as innocent and wonderful for all involved as perhaps some were lead to believe. And like any lawsuit, it will stand a chance to slow momentum in a particular direction, and have potential buyers think twice about the legality and ethics of what they are, or will be, engaged in. It is similar to the other form of counterfeiting, the deceptive kind. That's never going to stop, so one could argue, why even try? Or no law against murder has prevented all murders, so why even have a law against murder? Choose a perceived crime against humanity, any crime, and then let's see if the law that currently exists, or the ethical arguments against that activity have prevented that from occurring. I would say in likely all cases, it has not. But enforcement of laws likely does have a whole bunch of people reconsider things, and yet also goes unnoticed as reconsidering is often unobservable.

Courts may decide against the plaintiffs in this case while also making a noticeable judgment that puts cloners and clone buyers on notice. That would be winning from pro-authentic side. And courts may say non-deceptive counterfeiting is inevitable and that the court completely sides with the defendants, and that would be losing from the pro-authentic side. As I don't see that occurring, then I wonder how pro-clone side thinks it can succeed? Would be like if there was a pro-killing side claiming that because another murder happened somewhere today, that side is still "winning."

I agree and enjoyed reading what I could find on non-deceptive counterfeiting. All I could find though is theories and not actually cases that have been won or laws about it. I would enjoy reading me more if any links can be provided.

Theory is good to a point, especially in the educational environment. I would prefer facts though.

 

[bluecat]

Thanks......for that...edited this as had wrong post in mind... guess I missed a few post.... LOL

As we all do especially in a thread of this size.

 

[Kendogalopigus]

@Jman8

ive already said a few times, along with lots of other people how we think the clone side will win, not going to repeat it.

and its nice to know we are the same as murderers, not sure how buying a clone and murder is the same, wasn't it you that said compare apples to apples? if it wasn't you that said then my bad, but that's still like comparing apples to zebra's.

 

[Circa Survivor]

There is really nowhere else to go anymore. I actually do not own any mech mods. Technically, all my mods are authentic (Sigelei 50w, IPV2, Vamo V5 which doesn't actually get used anymore.) I had 2 Reos, which were obviously authentic but after a while with them I couldn't justify what I spent for them and sold them here. The only thing I buy clone-wise are my RDAs. I just can't see spending that much on something that I may not like. I bought a couple Magma clones and they're some of the best I've ever used. I'm not going to go buy an authentic Magma because it still has some issues that I'm not willing to settle with after dropping 100+ dollars. It would have to be perfection for me before I shell out that kind of money.

 

[bluecat]

Here is a couple of pics of my brass nemi clone. Sorry for vape hands.. I was enjoying a good NET liquid I received yesterday. Hopefully you can see or not see through the forced patina.