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Bad News About Nicotine...

Discussion in 'Nicotine' started by ashechtman, Jan 28, 2014.

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  1. ashechtman

    ashechtman Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2013
    United States
  2. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    It's complicated.

    The first thing Dr Farsalinos will tell you (he's a cardiac specialist who has a lot of experience with ecig research) is that one clinical trial doesn't really provide any evidence, it's something others must try to replicate.

    The next thing is that studies can sometimes be susceptible to funder bias or other forms of biasing. Then it must be compared to other studies on the same issue (for example if 6 say yes and 6 say no, there is no agreement on the basic hypothesis). All the evidence for the proposed effect must be compared at the same time - one study by itself usually has no real value (unless you are talking about a milestone such as Doll, Peto etc.).

    Finally, there is a data mountain from Swedish Snus consumption that can only be referred to as gigantic - plus their national health statistics. We are talking here about tens of thousands of people who consumed nicotine without smoke for multiple decades. The NRT data resource is minuscule by comparison - in fact, pharma companies use the Swedish data for their NRT licensing applications because it is so large, over so many decades, that the results are conclusive. The NRT data is so small in comparison that it is regarded as exploratory. Little greater than the ecig data resource in some ways.

    Does the Swedish data repeat the conclusion/s reached by this study/studies? I don't think so - Snus consumption has no clinical significance, the health effects are so small. But to be certain you would need to ask Dr Farsalinos, since being a cardiac specialist this is his field; or Prof Rodu, an expert on the pathology of tobacco consumption, who would know how to place this study.

    At this time all I can tell you is that many studies have shown that nicotine is the very devil - but they are all - and that's all - proven baseless, eventually. Sweden has unique national health stats and >20% of the population use Snus (some for decades), which often delivers more nicotine than cigarettes. These issues are not evident in Sweden and that means each of these (all are on different topics so it's hard to be specific) could be just another nicotine study that will be shown to be flawed or not applicable to humans in the real world (like many/most of the animal studies of nicotine, and the in vitro studies of nicotine, for example).

    If you find a problem in Sweden then it's worth worrying about. There aren't any.

    There is always something new to be discovered, but when it comes to nicotine you have to ask, "If I could find an isolated population where tens of thousands of people have consumed large quantities of tobacco/nicotine without smoke for decades, and been intensively studied, with hundreds of clinical studies, using very large cohorts (however measured), and the national health statistics are unique as a result, and we had all the data we could possibly need - would it help me answer this question?"

    We do - it's Swedish men - and multi-decade ad lib consumption of nicotine has no clinical significance. In fact it's so hard to reliably identify any effect that professors of public health are happy to state the following:

    "The difference in health outcomes between smokers who quit totally and smokers who switch to Snus is close to invisible. A Snus consumer is a non-smoker in health terms." - Rodu, Phillips (paraphrased).

    I don't think they would be saying that if nicotine had any significant issues (outside of abuse).

    However if you want to specifically examine the long-term effects of nicotine gum, and you find a clinically-significant effect: then you know it is specific to nicotine gum and little or nothing else. The Swedish data tells us that long-term consumption of oral nicotine without gum has no clinically significant effect, and this has been measured with data from tens of thousands over decades.

    It's not really anything to do with this - but the Swedish data resource is so vast that we now know the principle factors for mouth cancer (oropharyngeal cancers, technically) are:

    1. Smoking (by far the greatest risk)

    2. Drinking (a significant risk)

    3. HPV (human papilloma virus) - a type of cancer/wart transferred during oral sex

    Swedish Snus is not even measurable on this scale (if the scale is 1 to 100, and smoking is at 100, then Snus is below 1).
    Be clear: we are talking about the Swedish product, produced in Sweden, consumed there by Swedes - not any other product as we don't have the data.

  3. ashechtman

    ashechtman Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 19, 2013
    United States
    Great response! Thank you. However, as soon as i read those studies I quit vaping, so now i'm about 10 days off nicotine, and I don't think i'm gonna go back. I recently applied to become a verified member to sell my e cig stuff on the classifieds, but I can't find the classifieds sub-forum on ECF. Any help?
  4. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Sep 24, 2009
    ECF Towers
    Well, that's a good thing. If you don't need it, you don't need it.

    If you feel tempted to come back, try some vitamin B3 supplements, that might get you over the hump. You have to go big reportedly, 100mg won't make the trip.
  5. cigarbabe

    cigarbabe Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2010
    I guess I'm astounded that someone would let studies which don't really apply to most of us
    in any "real way" make the choice for you to stop vaping.
    Good luck on your journey. :)
  6. Elizabeth Baldwin

    Elizabeth Baldwin Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Wow! You stopped vaping due to that one study? I'm stumped too! You know you could have lowered your nic level to 0 and continued vaping. I've done extensive research and that study is not going to sway me. I'm more interested in long term studies that are unbiased myself.
  7. Julie W

    Julie W Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 31, 2013
  8. Agnes Black

    Agnes Black Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 27, 2014
    STL, MO
    There IS such a thing as 0% nic juice -- and I am on 6 right now. Why would you stop vaping? o_O just lower your nic percentage if one person's opinion bothers you. Personally I'm all about the oral fixation and eventually nicotine has no place in my future. I DO however plan on vaping until the earth swallows me up. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, I loved my PV and strawberry pie crust
  9. Agnes Black

    Agnes Black Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 27, 2014
    STL, MO
    PS there is a high amount of nicotine in carrots -- I recommend the non baby kind 3x or more a day while you dwindle your nic % down. And if nic is SOOOOO bad for you, then wouldn't that mean carrots are bad for you too?
  10. Rancor0681

    Rancor0681 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Yea and also skip tomatoes nicotine in them to
  11. cigarbabe

    cigarbabe Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 20, 2010
    I don't see any point in lowering my nicotine intake.
    I did start at 24 went to 14mg and then back eventually to 24 but I also never get "over nic-ed" as they say.
    I'm thrilled I was able to get off cigarettes mostly since I had never been even a single day free of them since I started smoking at the age of 14. Vaping has been nothing short of miraculous for me. I believe I function better when using nicotine.
    Some of us do have better cognition and focus when using nicotine.
    I think for me it is much better when I'm using a WTA product which I'm unable to get anymore......
    Good thing I hoarded some! lol

  12. salemgold

    salemgold ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 5, 2010
    South Carolina
    That is great that you were able to quit so easily. I hope that you are never tempted to go back to cigs though. I quit cold turkey once. It lasted 5 years and I ended up smoking again. The cravings were always there for me. One extremely stressful situation was all that it took.

    Good luck to you :)
  13. FireDragon1138

    FireDragon1138 Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 15, 2014
    Orlando, Florida
    I am not too worried about nicotine causing cancer- the issue has been studied and there doesn't seem to be any excess cancer risk among long-term users of NRT. I'd rather go with statistics than theoretical conclusions based on lab research.
  14. SleeZy

    SleeZy Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 3, 2014
    However sweden do want to ban / regulate the e-ciggs. They want to make e liquid to be pharma only, expensive at that! And force us back to cig-alikes. There's so much wrong propaganda about e-ciggs in sweden so i'm ashamed. I've even mailed an ANTZ with facts & comments. I doubt i'll get any answer though.
    And EU are trying to get us to ban the snus aswell... (We made a special deal, to allow snus else we wouldn't join the EU)
    Recent commision that went through recently, disallow ingredient lists on snus & no taste can be advertised. (so basicly we've to buy a black box and guess what sort of snus taste it is.)
    This is an another step to ban the snus in sweden. Because now they will be able to blame "there's no ingredient list on snus, it's dangerous" bla bla...

    However great post! +++ :thumbs:
  15. erinarthur222

    erinarthur222 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 19, 2013
    im down to 2 mg nico now..i mix my own juice !! ima happy vaper!!:D
  16. Frenchfry1942

    Frenchfry1942 Chillin' Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2014
    Sky Island
    Like all things, it is a personal choice that deserves studying. For me, I wanted off analogs. A lot of years and a lot of trying to quit. Vaping is doing it. I have reduced my nicotine a good bit.

    All-in-all, I have come to the conclusion that vaping is a lot better than smoking. I am working to reduce my nicotine and I believe it will take some time. That's okay with me.
  17. glycerol

    glycerol Senior Member ECF Veteran

    May 18, 2013
    Central Europe
    I'm concerned a lot about vaping particular flavours
    such as cinnamon and transformation of VG to
    formaldehyde under higher temperatures and I read tons
    of research and never found negative feedback on nic use.
    I suggest OP to find himself something real to worry about.
  18. Nicco

    Nicco Full Member

    Feb 4, 2014
    Malmo, Sweden
    Since using nicotine gum is basically like, stop smoking but maintaining the craving. Weight gaining is not surprising, most who stop smoking initially changes their behaviour to sweets and foods. If you prolong this "initial" period with nicotine gum or similar, you put yourself at high risk to gain weight if you don't exercise more or eat less and better. I remember a medical doctor explaining that the only reasons we allowed nicotine gum and patches and such to even be called medicine, where because, "even though we know they are virtually ineffective, they are all we have". But now we have Vaping, and it works! Its not the nicotine that make them fat, its the mental craving for cigarettes that gets their fingers in the cookie jar.

    For me this only once again shows that Vaping is the superior method, no weight gain is one of the trademarks of Vaping.
  19. Tealady12

    Tealady12 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2013
    St Paul, MN

    I would add caution here on the carrot theory, if you eat too many carrots you can turn orange! Really its true!
  20. AmandaD

    AmandaD Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 9, 2013
    So Cal
    I've inhaled more nicotine in the past 40 years than I have since I started vaping LOL And, as a long-term smoker, I never had an issue with weight - always easier to smoke than eat... now more convenient to vape delicious flavors than eat them :p
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