Bad Nicotine? Horribly Bitter Beer Face!!!

[crammit442]

When I first started DIY mixing, I bought my nicotine and flavors from Heartland Vapes. I initially just bought 120ml bottles of 100mg/ml VG nicotine. I got lucky and my first mixes became my ADV for several years. A couple years ago, I bought a liter of HV 100mg/ml VG nic. All was well until about three months ago when I realized my (always refrigerated) nic was down to only a couple hundred ml. I went ahead and ordered another liter of the same HV 100mg nic. I still haven't completely finished the first liter, but have stored the second liter unopened in the fridge. Fast forward to last week. I had a slow day at work so I took all my flavors, nicotine, bottles and everything with me and mixed some juice. I made my regulars and also played around w/some new flavors and mixes. To my astonishment and disgust, everything I mixed was extremely bitter. I was using a dripper and washed and rewicked between tastings. The only constant I could think of was the nic base. Out of curiosity, I touched a drop of the 100mg VG nic to my tongue and was shocked at how horribly bitter it was. I realize no one should be orally taste testing 100mg nicotine, but I knew something was really bad and I'm pretty sure it's the nicotine. I came home and opened the new liter and it was also freakishly bitter. I have plenty of liquid on hand so it's not a juice crisis, but has anyone ever experienced anything like this? I ordered a sample of nic salts a month or so ago and liked it, so until I figure out what went awry, I ordered 250 ml of Nic River 100mg "Hit" Nic Salts to use for the time being. In a single mixing session, I went from almost always making something I liked to making NOTHING I could possibly stand. Any ideas or answers appreciated.
Charles

 

[englishmick]

I've never had bad nic so I can't comment on that.

I think it would be worth making some unflavored juice at your normal nic % and VG/PG mix. See if that has the same bad taste. Guess you could make a bottle of the same but with no nic just to be sure it isn't the PG or VG. Just seems like a shame to give up on 2 liters of nic without being 100% sure, and it wouldn't take much work to get there.

If it is the nic you've probably had it too long to get any help from the vendor.

 

[crammit442]

That's actually an excellent (maybe the only) way to absolutely confirm the nic is the issue. It would only take a couple of minutes to make a batch of 36mg unflavored. Thanks for the idea.
Charles

 

[IDJoel]

I was going to suggest something similar:
Start with a fresh coil and wick
Then:
Place a few drops (enough to saturate the wick) of straight VG on your setup and vape to taste. This will rule out the VG.
Then:
Repeat with straight PG (shouldn't need to rinse; just vape the VG off until the wick is nearly dry). This will rule out the PG.
Then:
As @englishmick already suggested; make a small "normal" (normal PG/VG ratio; and normal nicotine concentration; no additional flavor concentrations) unflavored batch, and vape for taste. Having already ruled out both VG and PG; any new off-flavors have to be coming from the nic.

As for your direct (oral) tasting of the nic concentrate; I am doubtful of any informative feedback. Just from the occasional spit-back I have unwillingly tasted; I have found it always to be bitter, astringent, nothing like the vapor itself tasted, and all around nasty... and that was at diluted ready-to-vape levels. I would wholly expect concentrated 100mg/mL nic to be even worse.

If the nic tests out okay, in the unflavored base test; I would start looking for other common things (like drip tips, droppers, pipettes, mixing bottles/flasks/beakers, even wicking material) that were used with all affected mixes, and could have gotten cross-contaminated.

My embarrassing example:
On one occasion; I had rebuilt a tank (new coil and wick), after rinsing it out with hot water and drying/wiping out the chamber with a fresh paper towel. I put it all back together, filled it with my ADV of 6mg/mL 30PG/60VG unflavored, and took a few puffs. The taste was absolutely rank! Way above the "new wick & wire" off notes I usually expect from a fresh build.

I dumped the tank. Thought I might have gotten something on the wick; so I washed my hands. Then I re-wicked and refilled the tank. Tried vaping again... same results! "Well; maybe my e-liquid has gone 'off'" I thought. Dump, rinse, dry, re-wick, and fill the tank with a tobacco e-liquid I like as a "treat" vape on occasion. I try vaping yet again.

The tobacco flavor was there; but so was that ungodly funk!

I finally (out of frustration) switched to another set-up I had that was used routinely for my flavor vape (the same flavor that I just tried). It tasted just fine.

It took me a couple of hours; but I finally figured out my problem. I am not a very good/efficient rebuilder. As a result; it takes me the better part of a half hour to 45 minutes, to get an atty rebuilt. I also have a coffee cup perpetually attached to my arm when I am at home. Earlier in the day, I had put some antibiotic ointment on a cut I had given myself (my punishment for trying to work on my car). Evidently I had handled my coffee cup while I still had ointment on my hand. There wasn't a lot of ointment on the cup, not enough to be noticed... but there was enough.

So, even though I had washed my hands before starting to build, and again before rebuilding; because I was handling my coffee cup while building, I still managed to contaminate my wicks.

The moral of my story is: when the obvious doesn't answer the question... look for the less obvious.

I hope you get it figured out.

 

[CagedSpam]

Glass or plastic? My first thought was you mentioned refrigerator. Could there have been some kind of flavor transfer through a plastic jug?

 

[englishmick]

It took me a couple of hours; but I finally figured out my problem. I am not a very good/efficient rebuilder. As a result; it takes me the better part of a half hour to 45 minutes, to get an atty rebuilt. I also have a coffee cup perpetually attached to my arm when I am at home. Earlier in the day, I had put some antibiotic ointment on a cut I had given myself (my punishment for trying to work on my car). Evidently I had handled my coffee cup while I still had ointment on my hand. There wasn't a lot of ointment on the cup, not enough to be noticed... but there was enough.

So, even though I had washed my hands before starting to build, and again before rebuilding; because I was handling my coffee cup while building, I still managed to contaminate my wicks.

That story reminds me of something. At my last job one of my nightly tasks was to fill some fireplaces that burned alcohol. It was basically rubbing alcohol. Completely odorless when it burned but with bittering agent to make it undrinkable. I had to fill a 2 gal plastic container from a large barrel with a hand pump, then pour from that into the fireplace tanks.

Trouble was I always got some on my hands or shirt cuffs. If I picked up a vape without washing my hands it was going to taste terrible for the rest of the night. Even if I washed my hands I could pick up more from my shirt cuffs. I could only fix it by stripping and cleaning the tank when I got home, and cleaning the outside of the mod. In the end I got into the habit of rolling my sleeves up, then giving my hands and forearms a really thorough wash afterwards.

Lesson is that kind of contaminant is hard to get rid of, and it only takes a trace amount to mess up your vape. And you might not even notice it if you weren't vaping.

 

[stols001]

I too am hoping it's not your nic, and from the sounds of things it would be wise to rule any other contaminants out. I've tasted 100 mg/ml nic salts and they weren't bitter, but that isn't what salt nic tastes like, really.

Could it be possible your tastes have changed if you've been using your nic river sample for a bit? That's also a possibility too. If your nic isn't off, there are methods to convert it to nic salts using various types of acids, so that might be an area to pursue, my understanding is it's not that difficult and I know there's a thread on it out there. It may be worth a shot, since you are liking nicsalts anyway.... .If it winds up being your nic, it still may be worthwhile to try and convert it as at this point, you don't have much to lose, it might be a useful "experiment" regardless of how it turns out and etc.

Anna

 

[leftyandsparky]

Do we know anything yet? Following thread.....

 

[crammit442]

Some kind of contamination on my end is the what I'm beginning to think. The odds that a liter that's been in storage and in use for almost two years w/no complaint AND a new unopened liter of the same nic both just "going bad" over night seem pretty unlikely. I handle all types of chemicals at work and could easily have transferred something to the atomizer and/or coil. I've never taste tested 100mg VG nicotine before, so I'm not sure that bitterness there really means anything. In fact, a more accurate description of the nic base would be slightly acidic. A bit like battery acid. I just touched it to my tongue and then rinsed my mouth. Even at 36mg, it's only 1/3 of a finished DIY recipe. I would think that roughly 2/3 of the mix being flavor and/or VG would likely mask the bitterness. 100% VG is VERY sweet. For now, I'm going w/contamination as the culprit. I'm going to try to mix a really familiar recipe AFTER cleaning everything and putting a new build in the tank. If it's still bad, I'll wait and mix the same recipe w/nic salts and see if anything changes. I appreciate the input.
Charles

 

[classwife]

Test your VG by itself, it can sour after a year or so

 

[crammit442]

Test your VG by itself, it can sour after a year or so

I checked it. It's sweet enough to pass for syrup on pancakes in a pinch. The more I think about it the more I'm convinced I got a touch of something bitter on the atty and/or coil or just REALLY screwed up the mix. To be honest, it wasn't exactly a laboratory quality mixing session. I was kind of half mixing, half working. For all I know, I may have mixed the correct quantity of VG Nic and forgotten to add the remainder of pure VG all together. I would imagine that 10.8ml of 100mg VG Nicotine and flavor w/o the balance of pure VG would be pretty sour. Depending on flavor percentage, that could be 90-95mg/ml juice. That could do it. Most of the flavors I was playing with were Flavorah concentrates. I've noticed that many of their flavors are VERY strong and it's easy to over do it and end up with something perfumy and bitter. I've got a couple of favorites that are shake and vape. If I mix those and get good results, I'm going assume I either contaminated something or left out the rather large straight VG portion of the mix.
Charles(the village idiot)

 

[crammit442]

Fresh report from the village idiot. I just cleaned and put a new build in a Speed Revolution clone dripper. I mixed a 15ml test batch of a DIY Peach Custard @36mg/ml. The ELR calculator says it's 81/19 VG/PG. Shake and vape. Tastes like it has forever. Nice peachy custard goodness. At this point, I'm gonna guess w/a pretty high degree of certainty that mixing while working, combined with fairly severe ADHD may have led to the absence of the requisite addition of pure VG necessary to make what I intended to make. A drop of the complete mix isn't even overly bitter on the tongue. I wish I had some really cool explanation, but I'm afraid that this is just one more of my mildly entertaining vaping experiences. I appreciate all the input and hope everyone enjoyed my latest misadventure.
Charles

 

[IDJoel]

Glad to hear it wasn't the nic, @crammit442. I have 2 liters of Heartland nic sitting in the freezer as I type.

 

[crammit442]

Glad to hear it wasn't the nic, @crammit442. I have 2 liters of Heartland nic sitting in the freezer as I type.

Me too! Thinking about the whole thing really is kind of funny. No one was injured and I have yet another piece of hard earned wisdom. You can't even begin to imagine how much wisdom I have.
Charles

 

[stols001]

You are not alone (not) the village idiot, LOL. I think we've all messed up a mix or two. Glad you got it sorted out and etc

Anna

 

[DaveP]

Fresh report from the village idiot. I just cleaned and put a new build in a Speed Revolution clone dripper. I mixed a 15ml test batch of a DIY Peach Custard @36mg/ml. The ELR calculator says it's 81/19 VG/PG. Shake and vape. Tastes like it has forever. Nice peachy custard goodness. At this point, I'm gonna guess w/a pretty high degree of certainty that mixing while working, combined with fairly severe ADHD may have led to the absence of the requisite addition of pure VG necessary to make what I intended to make. A drop of the complete mix isn't even overly bitter on the tongue. I wish I had some really cool explanation, but I'm afraid that this is just one more of my mildly entertaining vaping experiences. I appreciate all the input and hope everyone enjoyed my latest misadventure.
Charles

So, after discovering that your last test batch was good, did you notice a drop in total mix volume in your previous batch of juices (the ones that were bitter) compared to the current good batch?

Considering that the VG component is so high in your mix, you'd probably see a marked difference in volume if you shorted the mix in VG. The amount of VG in your 100mg nic shouldn't be enough to compensate for the added VG needed to round out the mix. I'd think that you would have a much lower volume in the bottle from the first (bad) batch compared to the good batch you mixed in your last session if you shorted the previous mix in VG.

Or, maybe you just had a bad taste bud day!

 

[crammit442]

Normally I would have surely noticed the half empty 30ml bottles I always mix. In this case I was using a bunch of smaller 15ml bottles since I was playing around w/a bunch of new flavors and I guess I just didn't catch it since I knew I was mixing small test batches. I typically enter the percentages of each ingredient in the calculator and then add the VG Nic first, followed by the flavors, and then fill the remainder of the bottle with pure VG in case my flavor quantities are off by a bit so I don't run out of room in the bottle. It's always worked well for me that way. Since they were small tests, I guess I wasn't surprised that the bottles were less than full. Everything's working correctly again, so I'm pretty sure that was the culprit. Nice to know that my ingredients are all still good and it was just inattention on my part. A little embsrrasing, but lesson learned.
Charles