Bans, the Endgame and the Way Forward

[tescela]

I have to attend a barbecue soon at a college campus that is No tobacco Use (which includes e-cigs, too)

I've observed this, too, and find the trend deeply disturbing. The implicit message is that tobacco consumers do not deserve access to higher education.

Am I the only one that feels that the trend is eerily reminiscent of Jewish people being progressively marginalized from society in Nazi-occupied territories during the 1930's?

Secondhand smoke has been used as the justification for pushing analog smokers outside, then 20 feet away from buildings, then 50 feet, then outright bans of parks, beaches, and now entire college and employer campuses.

Like the Jewish people during that period, we are all trying to adapt. As a group, we have switched in mass to PVs and/or snus. Now, public and private institutions are ignoring their own secondhand smoke justification (i.e., "it's a threat to the health of bystanders") and arbitrarily extending the bans to PVs and snus, too.

At this point, government agencies and taxpayer-funded institutions aren't even bothering to provide a justification for banning the use of PVs and non-cigarette tobacco products. They are simply cutting off all avenues for harm reduction and isolating from society those who cannot or will not stop using any form of nicotine other than that sold by pharmaceutical companies.

For the last 25 years, tobacco consumers have implicitly followed a policy of appeasement, and this is the direct result.

For decades, we have ceded freedom after freedom to zealots that have assured us that their objective was not to prevent the use of tobacco, but simply to protect the health of non-tobacco consumers.

Now, they are dropping that pretense altogether. Public entities are now explicitly stating that we do not have any rights in this matter whatsoever, and that we must conform if we wish to utilize the very institutions that we are paying for with our tax dollars.

Some will be tempted to react with fiery political rhetoric, but the blunt reality is that their actions demonstrate that the overwhelming majority of Americans (as well as the citizens of almost the entire rest of the English-speaking world) have discarded individual liberty as a core value, so philosophical arguments along those lines are pointless.

Historically, once a minority group has reached this point, they have responded with one of five strategies:

1. Conform to the demands of the majority
2. Adapt in such a way that they are again seen as part of the majority while retaining their distinct characteristics
3. Take direct action with the objective that the majority will have no peace unless the minority is accommodated
4. Migrate to a more welcoming society
5. Perish

As PV users and/or tobacco consumers, what is our way forward?

For those that cannot or will not stop using PVs and/or consuming tobacco products, is there a way for us to adapt?

 

[yawppy]

Am I the only one that feels that the trend is eerily reminiscent of Jewish people being progressively marginalized from society in Nazi-occupied territories during the 1930's?

Progressively marginalized.. yep.. almost to the point of how do we win back our freedoms, I felt we have been quite accommodating to the NONSMOKING , and this is where we ended up, in the dumpster behind society. whats next compound camps like the "American" Japanese in WWII, or prison camps?

Secondhand smoke has been used as the justification for pushing analog smokers outside, then 20 feet away from buildings, then 50 feet, then outright bans of parks, beaches, and now entire college and employer campuses.

I was fine with the no smoking in a public building, fine with it, then it went to bars, and as you said, now we are not supposed to light up on a beach in the wide open, and that is sad, Native Americans smoked way before we were here, and so now we have the PV, where will the line be drawn, the NS will not leave us be, it's the North against the South, and we're on the Southern side of things. PV's are here, it's the Nic , The NS, and Tax Man that will not allow this to end, esp the Tax Man who is losing zillions.

Like the Jewish people during that period, we are all trying to adapt. As a group, we have switched in mass to PVs and/or snus. Now, public and private institutions are ignoring their own secondhand smoke justification (i.e., "it's a threat to the health of bystanders") and arbitrarily extending the bans to PVs and snus, too.

What is Snus? Chewing tobacco, thought that causes mouth throat cancers, heck perhaps we all better go back to the horse and buggy days, after all all that carbon emitting from our gas guzzling machinery, nope that causes no problems what so ever, just nicotine products, we have given them way to much power, way to much, that is what we get for being so accommodating!

At this point, government agencies and taxpayer-funded institutions aren't even bothering to provide a justification for banning the use of PVs and non-cigarette tobacco products. They are simply cutting off all avenues for harm reduction and isolating from society those who cannot or will not stop using any form of nicotine other than that sold by pharmaceutical companies.

Tax dollars down the drain, but nicotine is a part of the formula, therefore, if nic was never a part of the E-cig, or had it been named PV then we would not have all the attention, as we all know Nic is as addictive as caffeine, alcohol, gambling, etc.. as for the pharmaceutical comps, they are just as bad as the bankers these days.

For the last 25 years, tobacco consumers have implicitly followed a policy of appeasement, and this is the direct result.

For decades, we have ceded freedom after freedom to zealots that have assured us that their objective was not to prevent the use of tobacco, but simply to protect the health of non-tobacco consumers.

Now, they are dropping that pretense altogether. Public entities are now explicitly stating that we do not have any rights in this matter whatsoever, and that we must conform if we wish to utilize the very institutions that we are paying for with our tax dollars.

Yes we were very accommodating, to think we could be fair, and show concern for others around us, and perhaps they would leave us be, well them days are over, never again, this is the time to march into battle with our heads up high!

Historically, once a minority group has reached this point, they have responded with one of five strategies:

1. Conform to the demands of the majority NO WAY
2. Adapt in such a way that they are again seen as part of the majority while retaining their distinct characteristics NOPE
3. Take direct action with the objective that the majority will have no peace unless the minority is accommodated Onward we go into battle!
4. Migrate to a more welcoming society Admit defeat, enjoy the peace!
5. Perish Eventually

Extravagantly posted! I could not agree more, but personally, I really believe we will soon have to take a stand, this is that time, an under ground movement, write the GVT, probably not going to help, after all, they want the tax dollars we work so hard for.

So that is probably our best bet, banning the PV, probably never happen, but it's the nic juice they're after, so I say hoard a bottle a month, and well, eventually you'll have a life times supply, then what can they do?

DIY juices are already there, and I am sure we can find a way to loop hole them another day!

 

[tinstar15]

I agree. I tend to see our situation as one similar to that of numerous groups in the US today. Watching the news you see gays, gun owners, obese people, etc being targeted for one reason or another and vilified by the government and the press. Some groups are held high as a shining example and others are torn into.

What e-cigs need is an organized front, like an e-cig NRA. Look at how many anti-gun politicians are terrified into inaction by the NRA. Look at how few politicians are willing to take a position on the subject.

What organization do we have that can stand up to the lobbying or political powers of those arranged against us. The ECA? Sorry, too smal and to poorly funded. How many companies could actually withstand the legal and financial disaster that the FDA has wrought upon the few companies it has sought to destroy?

The overall problem is that PEOPLE enjoy marginalizing each other to make themselves feel better or superior.

"He's another brainless liberal.", "She's a right-wing conservative nutjob.", "Look at that fat ... eating a burger.", "Guns kill innocent children.", "Alcohol should be banned." etc

Most people come up with an opinion on subjects they know little or nothing about every day. Some people take up an opinion simply because the political party they're associated with has that opinion. Some will even defend these opinions in heated arguments with total strangers on internet.

Think about this...if the next president or senator or congressman from your political party of choice says that he will pass all the laws you've ever wanted passed, except that he/she intends to permanently ban all nicotine, tobacco, and especially all e-cigs and related products and create a new law enforcement agency to root out every last battery and drop of e-juice!!!.....would you switch parties and vote for the other guy? I doubt that many, if any, would.

Bottom line, if the market for e-cigs improves enough (and I believe it will eventually) that larger companies can be formed here in the US, and that these companies can fund a large lobbying group to represent us like the NRA does for gun companies and owners, then maybe we'll have a chance. Until politicians have something to fear from us, they will continue to walk all over us. We are too few, too scattered, and too unorganized to be afraid of.

 

[CtryBoy]

We really have a chicken and egg problem. Or a chicken little problem.

The sky is falling but with so many issues that millions scream no to being pushed on us anyway, hard to imagine what our little group can motivate politicians into doing. Wont stop me from trying. Contacted my senators office and got a step by step on what I need to give him to get his help, now time to get out of the web and out in the real world. Have no idea if I'm tilting at windmills or not, but not willing to give up and roll over (like we basically did as smokers)

I honestly cant tell if their problem is they had a knee jerk reaction and cant take it back or if they are such poor scientists that they believe their own statements. Nothing worse than a politician/bureaucrat that cant admit when they are wrong. But like every thing else these days, it seems once you pick a side it's do or die till the end and no matter the truth you must win at all costs. How sick is that.

I feel like this is such a small battle in a greater war against govt stupidity, but not sure how it will come out in the end. So much based on money and power that the truth just gets twisted into unrecognizable sound bites and gibberish. What ever happened to reason and civility? Prohibition doesnt work, taxing into oblivion doesnt work, but that doesnt mean they wont try. Next big drug raid will be to seize that stash of poorly labeled bottles in your closet.

And ANYTIME you hear a politician doing something 'FOR THE CHILDREN' you can be pretty sure he doesnt have a leg to stand on and must use emotion to sway people to his side. Even if we fire them all this election, that's just the elected officials. Still got to go after the institutional bureaucrats who we pay to make our lives a living hell. That's irony if I ever heard it. Nothing in life is 100% safe and anyone trying to provide that must control every aspect of your life.

 

[D103]

"First they came for the communists
and I didn't speak up
because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the Jews
and I didn't speak up
because I was not a Jew
Then they came for the Catholics
and I didn't speak up
because I was a Protestant
Then they came for me
and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.

~ Rev. Martin Niemoller - 1945 ~

Unless and until sufficient numbers of people recognize that this is the path we are on,
true Liberty remains in peril and continues to diminish as we blindly "give it away" through all manner of greed, zealotry, bigotry and self-righteousness fueled by seemingly endless delusional fear. And those currently on the side of power and oppression stand vehement yet clueless in a sort of drunken stupor, intoxicated on their own sense of "rightness and superiority" but blind to the destination to which this "road of fear" leads.

 

[Thulium]

What is Snus? Chewing tobacco, thought that causes mouth throat cancers, heck perhaps we all better go back to the horse and buggy days, after all all that carbon emitting from our gas guzzling machinery, nope that causes no problems what so ever, just nicotine products, we have given them way to much power, way to much, that is what we get for being so accommodating!

The anti-tobacco extremists have been so successful in spreading their campaign of misleading information that many people think this, even though it is not so. Swedish-style Snus and similar tobacco products like dissolvable tobacco go through a pasteurization process that removes the majority of carcinogenic nitrosamines which is what makes them "spitless".

The FDA has known for at least 30 years that ALL forms of smokeless tobacco are at least 95% safer alternatives to combustible tobacco because basically all of the "known" risks of tobacco are chemicals produced by combustion and the fire hazards of the combustion itself. In order to "protect" us from being "confused" (by the truth), the CDC reports all forms of smokeless tobacco together; but even combined with the old style "chewing tobacco", the risk of oral cancer from all forms of smokeless tobacco use is only slightly elevated from people who never used tobacco and is a fraction of the risk of oral cancer associated with smoking.

For further evidence, look at the recently published study from Sweden where snus has been used for over 200 years without a single confirmed adverse effect. Thanks to the widespread use of Snus in Sweden, the country has half as many smokers as other countries in Europe and accordingly Sweden has half the cancer mortality rate as their neighbors.

From: Assessment of Swedish snus for tobacco harm reduct... [Lancet. 2007] - PubMed result

FINDINGS: There was little difference in health-adjusted life expectancy between smokers who quit all tobacco and smokers who switch to snus (difference of 0.1-0.3 years for men and 0.1-0.4 years for women). For net harm to occur, 14-25 ex-smokers would have to start using snus to offset the health gain from every smoker who switched to snus rather than continuing to smoke. Likewise, 14-25 people who have never smoked would need to start using snus to offset the health gain from every new tobacco user who used snus rather than smoking.

 

[Vocalek]

The public has definitely been brainwashed about the safety of smokeless products. See: BioMed Central | Full text | You might as well smoke; the misleading and harmful public message about smokeless tobacco

Some good places to learn more about smokeless tobacco.

Smokeless tobacco (tobaccoharmreduction.org)
Casaa.org - Harm Reduction
Tobacco Truth

Note: All three sources also discuss electronic cigarettes as a harm reduction strategy.

Many electronic cigarette users have been able to give up the tobacco cigarettes but feel "something is missing." The prevailing theory is that the missing element is the MAOI inihibitors found in tobacco which function as a natural anti-depressant. Many have found that adding snus into their routine solves the problem for them.

BTW: ECF has a very active subforum on the topic. Smokeless tobacco - E-Cigarette Forum

 

[cr12]

op you should read freakonomics you would enjoy it,

 

[cr12]

vocalek thanks for those articles, nice to see what i always knew about ST, I read somewhere you are 33x (thats times) less likely to have cancer using ST vs. Cigs.

interesting stuff

 

[Hoosier]

Tescela. You draw some compelling parallels.

 

[CtryBoy]

Unethical?? The FDA would never.............

Man talk about calling an apple an apple. Still boggles my mind that these fools can get away with talking out their @#$ about things. Love the part where even if you are an idiot, if you claim to be an expert and pass on information that is misleading or just plain wrong, you are still an unethical idiot for not checking your sources.

Hopefully we can bring enough pressure that common sense will prevail in the end, but still wish there was a way to get these guys fired. Hmmm just figured out my next FOIA request. Names, I want names of everyone in the FDA fighting us. Maybe they wont be quite so bullheaded if we know who they are????

Ok wishful thinking at it's finest.

 

[Vocalek]

Unethical?? The FDA would never.............

Man talk about calling an apple an apple. Still boggles my mind that these fools can get away with talking out their @#$ about things. Love the part where even if you are an idiot, if you claim to be an expert and pass on information that is misleading or just plain wrong, you are still an unethical idiot for not checking your sources.

Hopefully we can bring enough pressure that common sense will prevail in the end, but still wish there was a way to get these guys fired. Hmmm just figured out my next FOIA request. Names, I want names of everyone in the FDA fighting us. Maybe they wont be quite so bullheaded if we know who they are????

Ok wishful thinking at it's finest.

Funny you should mention that. I was just thinking today that if Margaret Hamberg and/or Josh Sharfstein put into their depositions in the SE v. FDA case any of the half-truths they were spewing at the July 2009 press conference, we've got them. When you take an oath, you promise to tell "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." If they made any type of statement that talks about e-cigs containing carcinogens or toxins, they have committed perjury!

 

[DemonCowboy]

"First they came for the communists
and I didn't speak up
because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the Jews
and I didn't speak up
because I was not a Jew
Then they came for the Catholics
and I didn't speak up
because I was a Protestant
Then they came for me
and by that time there was no one left
to speak up for me.

~ Rev. Martin Niemoller - 1945 ~

Unless and until sufficient numbers of people recognize that this is the path we are on,
true Liberty remains in peril and continues to diminish as we blindly "give it away" through all manner of greed, zealotry, bigotry and self-righteousness fueled by seemingly endless delusional fear. And those currently on the side of power and oppression stand vehement yet clueless in a sort of drunken stupor, intoxicated on their own sense of "rightness and superiority" but blind to the destination to which this "road of fear" leads.

+1 i've been watching freedoms being taken away from US citizens for years, and the more i spoke about it the more people thought i was crazy. maybe i am, doesn't mean i haven't seen it, doesn't mean i haven't seen this coming. this is just another freedom being stolen, just now it seems that some people are starting to finally wake up. not near enough by far. the way i see all this playing out is they will try to ban it. we will still vape, more freedoms will continue to be lost until enough people wake up. then we'll have another revolution.

bottom line is the people in power think it's their right to be in power, that 100% of our money is theirs, and that we do what they say and that is how it should be. what's worse it's because we let them. until the masses rise up and say "that's enough" they'll keep doing it.

 

[tescela]

..........

 

[Vocalek]

Unless and until sufficient numbers of people recognize that this is the path we are on, true Liberty remains in peril and continues to diminish as we blindly "give it away" through all manner of greed, zealotry, bigotry and self-righteousness fueled by seemingly endless delusional fear. And those currently on the side of power and oppression stand vehement yet clueless in a sort of drunken stupor, intoxicated on their own sense of "rightness and superiority" but blind to the destination to which this "road of fear" leads.

D103, did you write this? Wow! Just Wow! So eloquent.