Bates turns the discussion - What are the risks of banning, over-regulating & lying?

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CabinetGuyScott

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Clive Bates is defining a new perspective / re-framing of the entire discussion:
[h=1]Turning the tables on public health – let’s talk about risk[/h]I love it when he says :mad: ENOUGH!

The gloves come totally off, and he gets in-your-face :glare:

NOTE: Here's his "ENOUGH" on the Cease and desist: making false claims about the gateway effect

Put a burden of responsibility on them for the continuation of known risk & harm in stifling transition to lesser harm options: snus, vaping, etc.

I love it! :thumb:

Here's the opening...

I’ve had enough of the one-sided conversation about the risks associated with e-cigarettes… poisons, gateways, renormalisation, fires, explosions, MRSA, pneumonia, dual use, undermining tobacco control, nitrosamines, anti-freeze, particulates, heavy metals, dead dog, dead cat…. blah blah blah.


ENOUGH! The public health establishment is conspicuously failing to recognise the risks associated with its preferred policy responses to e-cigarettes: with not having e-cigarettes, with banning snus, with prohibiting vaping in public places, with confusing people about risks, with controlling everything. They carry on as if these risks are zero or somehow not their responsibility – but they are all plausible and all end in more smoking and more cigarette sales. We need to press them much more assertively:



  • “do you accept these risks are plausible and can you see how and why they might arise?”
  • “what evidence do you have regarding these risks?”
  • “what make you so confident your policy ideas will not cause more harm than good?”
  • “at what level of risk would you stop advocating these policies, or at least call for more evidence?”

For almost every policy idea there is for regulating harm reduction, there is a realistic risk that it will make things worse for health. For almost every theoretical risks from vaping, there is a more plausible theoretical benefit. Let’s consider the following:

And the closer:
So there you have it: it is time that the naysayers, ANTZs, bossy doctors, risk-averse regulators, prudes and prohibitionists were challenged much harder on the risks they create, the harms they cause and the protection for the cigarette industry that they provide. It wouldn’t be so bad if the risks they created were risks to their health, but they need to be more accountable for the risks they impose on others: it’s not them that bear the consequential harms arising from their misjudgements, ideological posturing and responsibility shirking.
 
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NorthOfAtlanta

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It's really simple, the ANTZ and there minions have to lie to keep their jobs, we need to shove their lies down their throats far enough for them to choke.

I've long thought that we have been too nice to a group that would just like us to pay our taxes then die and go away.

Time for the cash cow to crap in someones mess gear.

:toast::D:vapor:
 

DC2

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I don't think we are taking the fight to them strongly enough unless we are calling them liars and murderers.
I think that is pretty much what it's going to take to get anyone to listen to us.

But that's just me.
I'm going to clarify that a little bit, and make it clear that is not what I think we should all be doing all the time...

We obviously need negotiators and leaders that are going to play smart and play nice.
And we need scientists and debaters talking about the facts.

But we need some people to be making some serious noise now and then too.
 

NorthOfAtlanta

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I don't think we are taking the fight to them strongly enough unless we are calling them liars and murderers.
I think that is pretty much what it's going to take to get anyone to listen to us.

But that's just me.

They are provably liars and murders, for thirty years plus they have ignored the population level, well documented Swedish miracle and the other studies on non-combustible tobacco. I wonder how many thousands (millions?) of people would be here today if they had told the truth 30-40 years ago.

This could and should be laid directly at the ANTZ doorstep in a lit paper bag and see what happens when they try to stomp it out.

:D:vapor:
 

Kent C

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I'm going to clarify that a little bit, and make it clear that is not what I think we should all be doing all the time...

We obviously need negotiators and leaders that are going to play smart and play nice.
And we need scientists and debaters talking about the facts.

But we need some people to be making some serious noise now and then too.


The old "flag bearers" and "debaters" dichotomy :) A movement needs both.

Flag bearers:

"Liberty and Property!" The Sons of Liberty and Resistance to the Stamp Act Part 1 | Libertarianism.org
The Sons of Liberty and Resistance to the Stamp Act, Part Two | Libertarianism.org

Leaders/debaters:
The Philosophy of the Declaration of Independence: Part 1 | Libertarianism.org
The Philosophy of the Declaration of Independence: Part 2 | Libertarianism.org

for more:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/kent-c/6470-declaration-independence-what-led-up.html


fireworks_and_happy_4th-1687.gif
 

KODIAK (TM)

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Yes, a nice read but it's not exactly new insight.

The hurdle we face is rooted in "emotions" and decades of discrimination against all smokers which we are lumped in with. We all are a disdainful part of society that is shunned because of our <gasp> addiction to nicotine. Our kind transcends all religious and racial boundaries and is therefore immune from all forms of political correctness. And harm reduction is no excuse for our filthy needs.

I'm not sure what the solution is folks but I fear this battle won't be won with logic and science.
 

NorthOfAtlanta

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KODIAK™;13595641 said:
Yes, a nice read but it's not exactly new insight.

The hurdle we face is rooted in "emotions" and decades of discrimination against all smokers which we are lumped in with. We all are a disdainful part of society that is shunned because of our <gasp> addiction to nicotine. Our kind transcends all religious and racial boundaries and is therefore immune from all forms of political correctness. And harm reduction is no excuse for our filthy needs.

I'm not sure what the solution is folks but I fear this battle won't be won with logic and science.

Won with this only, no but it will be a major front. Clive has just given them a major smack down that should garner some media attention and hopefully let them know that we are not going to go quietly and will not allow them to lie and get away with it.

:2c::vapor:
 

skoony

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the only bright spot i can see is the fact we have this forum and the internet. i am waiting for that pentagon papers moment when some young journalist figures it out and actually does some digging on this. also lately i have noticed an uptick in positive media exposure. almost as if they are testing the waters. hopefully the tide is changing. one hurdle is the bad economy. the non-smoking/vaping population is to busy trying to make ends meet to worry about much of anything other than keeping their heads above water. they would gladly except draconian regulations and taxes on e-cigs if they thought it would help their plight.
:2c:
regards
mike
 

CabinetGuyScott

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the only bright spot i can see is the fact we have this forum and the internet. i am waiting for that pentagon papers moment when some young journalist figures it out and actually does some digging on this. also lately i have noticed an uptick in positive media exposure. almost as if they are testing the waters. hopefully the tide is changing. one hurdle is the bad economy. the non-smoking/vaping population is to busy trying to make ends meet to worry about much of anything other than keeping their heads above water. they would gladly except draconian regulations and taxes on e-cigs if they thought it would help their plight.
:2c:
regards
mike

I have suggested that John Stossel & Greg Gutfeld would be a real-world dynamic duo to attack, investigate & blow the freakin' lid off - i.e. Pentagon Papers break through!
 

Uma

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#7. "Protecting the children. There is almost universal consensus, including almost the entire e-cigarettes and tobacco industry, that under-18s (let’s call them adolescents rather than children) should not have access to e-cigarettes"

^^^^ this ^^^^ grabs my goat more than anything else. The "children" deserve the right to not be political pawns. They are nothing but pawns. We're seeing it down at the border today, we seeit in the anti-smoking/nicotine/THR campaign every day, and we see it every time the talk of war comes up. The politicians and lobbyists have absolutely zero morals IMO. They rally their causes then send the children in to do their bidding, killing, lying, cheating, propaganda. The kids don't realize they're only pawns. They're filled with promises of a bright new future, comraderie, patriotism, honor....
The children they send to war, are considered too young to use THR.
Save the Children my ......
Look at these faces. These young men are returning from the Vietnam war without a clue of the political agendas that are awaiting them. Homelessness, jobless, spit on, harassed, ... Towns are including smoking bans as a way to rid the towns of the homeless, our beautiful souls who fought for OUR freedom. Many are dying, waiting for Vet care.
They're just kids!
If I hear one more ANTZ pleading for bans, in order to "save the cheeeldren"......

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