Battery concerns/misinformation and some education

[wader2k]

Nod. And how large/heavy was the pack?

Have you ever seen a cell phone before? I'm just wondering how anyone can "not believe in them" at this point. There's a lot of physical evidence that points towards their existence...

Not large at all....2 AAA sized 1.2 volt batts

Here are some rated at 1000MaH

Meritline.com - Rechargeable Battery AAA 1000mAH Camelion NiMH Battery

 

[Adrenalynn]

Yup - about 4x the mass of equivalent density Lithium cells.

 

[wader2k]

Yup - about 4x the mass of equivalent density Lithium cells.

But I can easily see carrying around 4 of these AAA batts in a mod. It would have a smaller form factor than the 2 CR123's folks use in mods.

There's something here I am not understanding. Which isn't unusual!

 

[yano_jl]

So what about the V4L batteries?

I do not use a mod, I use a combo of auto/manual V4L batteries. I use the V4L charger, but usually let them sit unattended, and sometimes overnight. Is that bad?

I do NOT use a special charging containment box like you; should I?

Thanks.

 

[Adrenalynn]

The CR123's have even higher energy density. You can find protected AAA's that are about 1/5th the weight of those NiMH.

Yano - I wouldn't ever both using a battery box to charge V4L batteries. As I noted in every post, they're very low energy density, and as long as they're properly cared for, they will far outlast their service life.

 

[Pawpaw]

Adrenalynn, what about LiMN batteries such as this one:

AW IMR18500 1100mAh LiMN rechargeable lithium battery

They're not protected, but are being touted as "safe chemestry" and "high-drain".

I have been considering trying one of these in my mod, but I'd like to avoid burning my face off. It ain't purdy the way it is, but there's no sense in making it worse!

 

[sawlight]

You will want this for your purpose Paw Paw: AW IMR18650 1600mAh LiMN rechargeable lithium battery

I can't find a link for you, but they are used in high current/high drain applications. There are a couple of Chuck users that love them. They are actually a safer chemistry than the Li ions used now and will work fine in the chargers you already have.

 

[Pawpaw]

Thanks. You're right, I did post the wrong link. I meant to link the 18650, but goofed.

I've read on ECF that they're safer, but I haven't been able to locate any hard info.

I'm hoping Adrenalynn will chime in. She's always up to speed on this stuff.

 

[Drozd]

Saw...
Some other errors in judgement it looks like he made from reading that thread..
He went the cheap route ($2 for a set of 2) and ordered some no name CR123a batteries that were not indicated as being rechargeables nor protected...he just thought they wre protected..
Didn't even get the ones he ordered they were yet another brand that the vendor swapped out to fill the order...
And put the batteries that weren't indicated as rechargeables on a charger...

So that being said, there's no way that anyone with a bit of sense should have tried to even put these in a mod and vape with them..
And thanks for posting this thread Saw...I'm seeing a trend of a LOT of V4L people recently getting mods so this can be a major concern and is a good topic here..

Me personally, I see a mod as an investment and as such find it unfathomable that someone can try and cheap out on the batteries after dropping at least $80 for the mod..
I think it's critical to mention that people shold be looking for quality batteries from trusted and respected manufacturers and have the appropriate chargers...

Me personally my preferences are for AW batteries over the others if I can find em (I've yet to hear of any catastrophic failure with these)...and I usually can in any of the popular sizes the mods use..

 

[Adrenalynn]

I don't know that I know everything there is to know about 'em, PawPaw, but from what I understand:

They generate far less heat through decomposition during an overcharge event
The cell is completely stable up to about 4.5V (no damage if slightly overcharged
Higher rate charge permissible
They have a longer cycle life at higher discharge rates

They still need to be charged in a balanced charger though. And the energy density was still a bit lower last I investigated them.

 

[Drozd]

Not large at all....2 AAA sized 1.2 volt batts

Here are some rated at 1000MaH

Meritline.com - Rechargeable Battery AAA 1000mAH Camelion NiMH Battery

But I can easily see carrying around 4 of these AAA batts in a mod. It would have a smaller form factor than the 2 CR123's folks use in mods.

There's something here I am not understanding. Which isn't unusual!

Comes down to smaller yes but insufficient voltage ..think it'd take 3 of those AAA NiMH batteries to equal the voltage produced by 1 V4L stock battery..so when shooting for the higher voltage of some mods of say 6 volts you're looking at 5 of those NiMH to equal 2 3v 123 batteries.. which is actually more space..not to mention you'd have to stack em or wire up a battery pack..and well when using multiple batteries you should be metering them and charging them in matched pairs so that one isnt charging more or discharging more than the other (which can cause failure faster) now imagine having to pair up and do this with sets of 5 or 6...I think there'd be a higher margin for failure...
But then again that's not really my field...my line of work is making steel fit together and work..often that requires the highly delicate and precise calibration tools like sledgehammers and torches..so that's my simple and basic understanding of it so if I'm wrong I hope adrenalynn will correct me..

 

[Adrenalynn]

NiMH doesn't really need to be balanced, Li* do.

NiMH can be balanced by a c/10 charge aka veeeery slooooow charge. Other than that, there's not really much to balancing them other than the really expensive charger (like the one you see in my battery box) that can do it by limiting the current to each cell on the fly. Not really worth it in my opinion.

 

[Drozd]

NiMH doesn't really need to be balanced, Li* do.

NiMH can be balanced by a c/10 charge aka veeeery slooooow charge. Other than that, there's not really much to balancing them other than the really expensive charger (like the one you see in my battery box) that can do it by limiting the current to each cell on the fly. Not really worth it in my opinion.

well thanks for the correction on the balancing of batteries... not something I've dealt with...like I said my field is a hit it or burn it to make it fit kinda gig... now that I've got a mod comming this week I've been reading up on Li* batteries as much as possible and have already bought and decided I didn't like/ want to use several before they've even made it into a charger or said mod...decided it was time to get my first meter too for this endevor even though I've no idea how to really use it..

 

[Adrenalynn]

What'd you get?

If you need any pointers, there's several of us here that I know have a fair bit of experience with multimeters. I think I got my first Sencor before I could walk.

 

[CatMommy]

OK, so for your review these are the batteries that I purchased:

Combo Kit: 6 RCR123A 3.0V 750mAh LiFePO4 Rechargeable Batteries with a Smart Charger

KIT: TL-100 Universal Li-Ion 18650 Battery Charger + 2 18650 Batteries!

 

[Drozd]

What'd you get?

If you need any pointers, there's several of us here that I know have a fair bit of experience with multimeters. I think I got my first Sencor before I could walk.

Just this cheap one from harbor freight...but i figure it should meet the needs for what I need to do..

- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

 

[Adrenalynn]

I've got a boatload of those. I give them to students, I use them on jobs where they're likely to grow legs or get dropped off a ladder, I have them scattered through every room in the house...

I wait until they're on sale for $2.99 or $3.49, then buy a couple cases. When the batteries die I toss 'em out. Cheaper to buy another meter than replace the battery.

They aren't tremendously accurate - plus or minus a couple/few tenths of a volt, but close enough for government work. They're an outstanding deal. They give you a nice snapshot of what's going on.

For the really accurate stuff I post here, I use Fluke or Agilent/HP. For temperature, I use the Fluke or the Sinometer.

 

[Drozd]

OK, so for your review these are the batteries that I purchased:

Combo Kit: 6 RCR123A 3.0V 750mAh LiFePO4 Rechargeable Batteries with a Smart Charger

KIT: TL-100 Universal Li-Ion 18650 Battery Charger + 2 18650 Batteries!

I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with the RCR123a batteries because I don't see anywhere where it says that they're protected batteries...but they may be *shrug*

the 18650s nice..on the battery specs they do say that the battery has a PCB..so those ARE protected

 

[Drozd]

I've got a boatload of those. I give them to students, I use them on jobs where they're likely to grow legs or get dropped off a ladder, I have them scattered through every room in the house...

I wait until they're on sale for $2.99 or $3.49, then buy a couple cases. When the batteries die I toss 'em out. Cheaper to buy another meter than replace the battery.

They aren't tremendously accurate - plus or minus a couple/few tenths of a volt, but close enough for government work. They're an outstanding deal. They give you a nice snapshot of what's going on.

For the really accurate stuff I post here, I use Fluke or Agilent/HP. For temperature, I use the Fluke or the Sinometer.

yeah I'm just gonna use it for pairing up batteries and checking them going on and off the charger..maybe checking resistance on atties..nothing super super sensitive..

 

[CatMommy]

I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with the RCR123a batteries because I don't see anywhere where it says that they're protected batteries...but they may be *shrug*

the 18650s nice..on the battery specs they do say that the battery has a PCB..so those ARE protected

D-

On the description for the RCR123a it says:
"Safe, build-in IC provides various protection, thermal protection, overcharge protection, short-circuit protection, mechanical and electrical protection against reversal polarity, and auto defective battery identification."

Is this what I'm looking for?