Battery Safety Questions

[Continuity]

I could not find the above quote in your link page. However, the datasheet does NOT mention a post-charge "trickle charge mode".

Aah - my fault - sorry. The quoted text was from adafruit who sells a charging board based on that IC. You can find that page here: USB LiIon/LiPoly charger [v1.2] ID: 259 - $12.50 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits.

It was suggested previously here that batteries should be removed from the charger "as soon as possible" after charging completes, and it was that suggestion that I addressed.

I think that some battery charger reviewers who have done really in-depth teardowns and tests have reported that a lot of chargers discharge the batteries when they're left in the charger, and the charger isn't charging any more because it's finished or whatever.

 

[sonicbomb]

People are spreading false information though. Shouldn't we be allowed to correct people who are wrong? If this place is really about educating people then they should be getting truthful and factual information.

Where is the evidentiary support for your opinion?

 

[retired1]

People are spreading false information though. Shouldn't we be allowed to correct people who are wrong? If this place is really about educating people then they should be getting truthful and factual information.

If you provide evidence, yes. Trolling the thread with "you're wrong" with nothing else, no.

 

[VNeil]

Aah - my fault - sorry. The quoted text was from adafruit who sells a charging board based on that IC. You can find that page here: USB LiIon/LiPoly charger [v1.2] ID: 259 - $12.50 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits.


I think that some battery charger reviewers who have done really in-depth teardowns and tests have reported that a lot of chargers discharge the batteries when they're left in the charger, and the charger isn't charging any more because it's finished or whatever.

It is important to note that the actual datasheet, which is the bible of that particular circuit component, does not call it a "trickle charge". Always beware of second hand information . That's why I went straight to the datasheet.

Similarly, I would look carefully at those reviews to determine the length of time it took to measurably discharge. Was it hours, days or weeks? Was the charger left plugged in or unplugged? And it certainly may be that some chargers (and/or controller chips) are better engineered than others.

 

[Continuity]

I think the fact that devices only draw the Amps they require from power supplies and no more is a quite definitely established fact in electronics.

In other words, it *is* wrong to put the fear of god into people, telling them that using a 2A power supply to charge a mod that requires 800mA will cause it to 'catch fire and explode'.

 

[Continuity]

...I would look carefully at those reviews to determine the length of time it took to measurably discharge. Was it hours, days or weeks? Was the charger left plugged in or unplugged? And it certainly may be that some chargers (and/or controller chips) are better engineered than others.

Oh, they quoted exact numbers - they were very low, but not completely insignificant if you were going to leave them in there for some length of time.

 

[Alien Traveler]

If charger makes batteries hot, then either charger or batteries should be discarded.
If batteries are not warm after charging - why to rest them? Show me any evidence that it can improve safety.

My charger and my built-in chargers in mods behave perfectly. I do not need to rest my batteries. Even more - now I treat my mods as mods with built-in batteries. I never take batteries out, I charge them in mods. Convenient, easy, fast. Why shouldn't I? Can somebody explain? As far as I know all bad things with charging mods happened with Ego style batteries/chargers. In my opinion much more dangerous is to run batteries hot during high wattage vaping, but definitely it is not dangerous enough to stop vaping.

By the way, I still do not leave my charging batteries unattended.

 

[VNeil]

Oh, they quoted exact numbers - they were very low, but not completely insignificant if you were going to leave them in there for some length of time.

How low?

I have a DIY headphone amplifier with a built in 15xAAA NiMH battery board. It was built on a pair of quasi commercial boards. The charger circuit had a similar "problem" where it would discharge the batteries over a period of maybe months. Something on the order of a 1ma drain. It was not a problem in normal use, but it would kill a big set of AAAs if it were put in a drawer and forgotten about for 6 months. It was an intentional design compromise, the solution being considered worse than the problem, or something like that. And these batteries were buried in a case, not easily removable. That's why I asked the specific rate to put context into this.

 

[pappcam]

If you provide evidence, yes. Trolling the thread with "you're wrong" with nothing else, no.

Just one more on the topic and then I'll stop.

Shouldn't it be up to the person giving out the info to provide evidence in the first place, especially when they speak in absolutes like "never do such and such"? Anyway, I'll refrain from being inflammatory if it's coming off that way but there is an awful lot of false battery safety info around here lately.

 

[Cohumulone]

If charger makes batteries hot, then either charger or batteries should be discarded.
If batteries are not warm after charging - why to rest them? Show me any evidence that it can improve safety.

My charger and my built-in chargers in mods behave perfectly. I do not need to rest my batteries. Even more - now I treat my mods as mods with built-in batteries. I never take batteries out, I charge them in mods. Convenient, easy, fast. Why shouldn't I? Can somebody explain? As far as I know all bad things with charging mods happened with Ego style batteries/chargers. In my opinion much more dangerous is to run batteries hot during high wattage vaping, but definitely it is not dangerous enough to stop vaping.

By the way, I still do not leave my charging batteries unattended.

Can you clarify what an ego type battery is?

 

[Continuity]

How low?...That's why I asked the specific rate to put context into this.

I found the site again - on their Nitecore D4 review, for example, they say:

• Discharges LiIon with 0.8mA and NiMH with 0.16mA when not connected to power

You can find the site here: Review of Charger Nitecore Digicharger D4.

It's a really good site with some really good, deep information about the chargers we all use, and different cells and flashlights etc - the layout is a bit basic (the 90's called and want their site back!), but the information is stellar IMO.

 

[VNeil]

My charger and my built-in chargers in mods behave perfectly. I do not need to rest my batteries. Even more - now I treat my mods as mods with built-in batteries. I never take batteries out, I charge them in mods. Convenient, easy, fast. Why shouldn't I?

I believe that over time here, it was noted that there were far more reports of mods (with replaceable batteries and USB chargers) being smoked while charging then outboard chargers, outboard charger incidents being quite rare (but isolated incidents have been reported of course). It was also believed that those mods were generally using 30 cent charging circuits verses presumably better circuits in the outboard chargers.

I'm not giving that idea any specific credibility, but you asked WHY, and as best I understand things here, that is the reasoning, right, wrong or indifferent. QC is a moving target and it may be that the incidents of mods melting down while charging may have involved mods that have since disappeared from the market, and our gear does seem to be getting better with time.

I personally prefer to charge in an outboard charger for two reasons. One, I think the micro USB port is the weak link in those systems, not being terribly robust. Especially if that port does double duty as a firmware update port. Two, I replace batteries several times a day (being a chain vaper), so I'd rather swap a battery on a magnetic door mod, for example, than have to juggle multiple mods. And when I am out for the day, I'd rather carry a couple of spare batteries than multiple mods and atty's.

 

[Continuity]

Can you clarify what an ego type battery is?

Literally the first things that come up when you do an 'Image Search' for 'eGo type battery'.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Can you clarify what an ego type battery is?

I was talking about older variations of Ego. Newer ones (have not heard bad things about them) look like these:
JOYE eGo E Cigarette

 

[Alien Traveler]

I believe that over time here, it was noted that there were far more reports of mods (with replaceable batteries and USB chargers) being smoked while charging then outboard chargers, outboard charger incidents being quite rare (but isolated incidents have been reported of course). It was also believed that those mods were generally using 30 cent charging circuits verses presumably better circuits in the outboard chargers.

I'm not giving that idea any specific credibility, but you asked WHY, and as best I understand things here, that is the reasoning, right, wrong or indifferent. QC is a moving target and it may be that the incidents of mods melting down while charging may have involved mods that have since disappeared from the market, and our gear does seem to be getting better with time.

I personally prefer to charge in an outboard charger for two reasons. One, I think the micro USB port is the weak link in those systems, not being terribly robust. Especially if that port does double duty as a firmware update port. Two, I replace batteries several times a day (being a chain vaper), so I'd rather swap a battery on a magnetic door mod, for example, than have to juggle multiple mods. And when I am out for the day, I'd rather carry a couple of spare batteries than multiple mods and atty's.

Theoretically you are right. But in practice... Where are these reports? And what about mods with built in batteries? I just vote for convenience.

 

[Lessifer]

This is just a guess, but a lot of the misinformation is probably due to a conflation of advice regarding at least three separate types of batteries/chargers. There's the old cigalike/ego chargers, built in battery mods, mods with replaceable batteries with/without onboard charging. Throw in a propensity for making "rules of thumb" and then people trying to further simplify those rules, and we get confusion.

 

[VNeil]

I found the site again - on their Nitecore D4 review, for example, they say:

• Discharges LiIon with 0.8mA and NiMH with 0.16mA when not connected to power

You can find the site here: Review of Charger Nitecore Digicharger D4.

It's a really good site with some really good, deep information about the chargers we all use, and different cells and flashlights etc - the layout is a bit basic (the 90's called and want their site back!), but the information is stellar IMO.

So if I have a 2500 mAh battery in the charger, it will require 625 hours (26 days) to drop to 2000mAh. It would take 5 days to drop 100mAh. About the same rate as that DIY charger I mentioned. The dose makes the poison here, and I would suggest this is not a consideration with a normal rotation of batteries. It would only matter to someone who left a set of batteries in a charger "forever", for emergency use in a flashlight, thinking the charger was topping off the battery when it was not. Or for some other purpose.

 

[VNeil]

Theoretically you are right. But in practice... Where are these reports? And what about mods with built in batteries? I just vote for convenience.

Oh My Gosh... there is no shortage of mods smoked while charging reports in the various model specific threads. I own an iStick 50W, which was absolutely famous for that, at least the earlier output. It's one reason I won't buy an internal battery mod, especially with deeming where this stuff may need to last a long time. This was not theoretical, it was a matter of if the concerns matched the statistical odds, but I'm not going into a long research project to support what I'm saying. And honestly I'm surprised you are not aware of this, being a long time member that has spent a lot of time here.

 

[retired1]

**sigh**

Someone asks for general info on battery safety, and we have some going into a PhD thesis regarding electronics.

Folks, let's keep our audience in mind and what the original question was.

 

[VNeil]

**sigh**

Someone asks for general info on battery safety, and we have some going into a PhD thesis regarding electronics.

Folks, let's keep our audience in mind and what the original question was.

With all due respect, you have now admonished some members for expressing opinions without any basis in fact, and admonished others for providing said basis in fact, but perhaps in more detail than you would have personally preferred?

{sigh}