Beginner Question Medicine Flower Flavors

[JeffBass]

Hello first post here, getting into DIY.

Ive decided after much research Id like to try some Medicine Flower flavors as I use VG based flavors only. Now, Im confused on what "line" everyone purchases for the DIY mixes they are sharing.

I would like to purchase the Silver line (alcohol base), will that be okay for DIY? The premium line contains PG, and while plant derived I have pg sensitivity. I have read there is a steep time to mixing with MF flavors so I assume most people have bought and mixed the MF flavors with the alcohol base.

Just needed some clairification before I drop the money on their flavors.

Im also a little confused. Ive seen flavors for sale on Wizard labs that were an alcohol base. Also people have mentioned a steep time to let the alcohol evaporate from MF flavors before vaping. These posts were from years ago before MF changed their website and created their "lines"

Were people mixing with the alcohol based flavors years ago before there was a flavor line with pg? Is it safe to use the alcohol based flavors for vape DIY?... Or, when anyone is talking about MF flavors are they talking about the PG based flavors?

Thanks

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Hi Jeff and welcome to the ECF.

I would like to purchase the Silver line (alcohol base), will that be okay for DIY?

There are folks on ELR and vaping Community (UK) who use [vape] some of the Silver Line alcohol based flavors.

Years ago Virgin Vapor had a Caramel flavor that was alcohol based. We used to leave the cap slightly cocked so the alcohol would evaporate. Same for other alcohol based flavors like some sold at BCF, Wizard or fill-in-the-blank.

After you mix something smell it, if you smell alcohol leave the cap cocked, wait a day then smell it, if it still smells of alcohol wait another day, rinse/repeat until the alcohol smell evaporates.

FWIW, there were times I vaped VV's caramel fresh with the alcohol smell. Didn't bother me. But, it was better after I let the alcohol evap.

I have read there is a steep time to mixing with MF flavors so I assume most people have bought and mixed the MF flavors with the alcohol base.

Steep times with MF flavors are long, 4 weeks, and some do better, or come to life at 6 weeks. Some folks say 3 weeks. In my experience it is 4-6 weeks. YMMV.

I have, and use, MF flavors from the Premium Flavor Line. But, I also have many flavors from other companies that I use regularly.

Were people mixing with the alcohol based flavors years ago before there was a flavor line with pg?

It is my understanding that MF had PG based flavors all along.

Is it safe to use the alcohol based flavors for Vape DIY?

Same answer, there are folks on ELR and Vaping Community (UK) who use [vape] some of the Silver Line flavors.

Asking "is it safe" is like asking "is vaping safe". Both depend on who you ask. I'll refrain from answering either. I made a choice to vape vs smoking cigs.

Or, when anyone is talking about MF flavors are they talking about the PG based flavors?

Again, same answer, there are folks on ELR and Vaping Community (UK) who use [vape] some of the Silver Line flavors.


I gather from your questions here, and at Reddit, that you haven't tried any of their flavors. FWIW, you did receive some good replies at Reddit.

If I were you I would try one of the flavors from the Premium Line and see how it works for you. It may work out just fine for you especially if your base is high VG.

Good luck.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Also, and FWIW, I only know of 6, currently active members, on ECF (including me) who use, or have used, Medicine Flower flavors.

There are only handfuls of MF mixers across Reddit, ELR, VU, ATF, Vaping Community (UK), PotV and the S. African forum. Some of those mixers are members at more than one of those.

 

[JeffBass]

Hi Jeff and welcome to the ECF. .

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I should explain what Im trying to accomplish and a bit of my vaping backround. I quit smoking a year and a half ago and only vape since then. I am coming from vaping Kais Virgin Vapors flavors exclusivly. They marketed as organic, max vg, and pg free and I am looking to create something similar and avoid using pg altogther. I have learned it is very difficult to avoid pg as a flavor base. I have seen a couple threads discussing pg-free flavors, however I would also like to avoid artificial flavors because of the materials used in the creation of the flavors. Ive only vaped nat and organic flavors and would enjoy keeping it that way.

The only flavor I have at the moment is organic strawberry by TFA vg base, I mixed some 0% juice yesterday and it turned out good. It has strong candy/sugar notes to it but the strawberry is coming out over time.

 

[JeffBass]

Okay well as I always tell myself " the more you know"

imgur.com/a/gLW4QV3

So in the lab test theres a .4 PG in the Strawberry Kais flavor I vape. Which I didnt know until right now and Ive vaped that for a year and a half...

This leads me to believe they use a 100%vg base but their flavor is in a pg base. Huh... I guess Im considering the Medicine Flower premium (pg) line in that case. Because if I mixed everything else using vg then the amount of pg from the flavor would probably add up to a very small amount, similar to the juice I vape now from kais.

If I went with the pg line do I need to steep the pg line as long as the alcohol line?

Im not trying to make a clone of Kais either, just trying to be mindful of the ingredients I use in my juice. One last thing, I had picked up some Nat Lor Anns flavors from Wizard but was hesitant to use them when I realised they were a pg base. This is probably not an easy question but if I mixed a juice where the only pg is coming from the flavor do we have an idea of how much pg is really in the juice? Take the percentages of Vg, nic and flavor to get an idea of how much pg I have?

I appreciate the help.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Thank you so much for the thoughtful reply. I should explain what Im trying to accomplish and a bit of my vaping backround. I quit smoking a year and a half ago and only vape since then. I am coming from vaping Kais Virgin Vapors flavors exclusivly. They marketed as organic, max vg, and pg free and I am looking to create something similar and avoid using pg altogther. I have learned it is very difficult to avoid pg as a flavor base. I have seen a couple threads discussing pg-free flavors, however I would also like to avoid artificial flavors because of the materials used in the creation of the flavors. Ive only vaped nat and organic flavors and would enjoy keeping it that way.

The only flavor I have at the moment is organic strawberry by TFA vg base, I mixed some 0% juice yesterday and it turned out good. It has strong candy/sugar notes to it but the strawberry is coming out over time.

Did you know there are more than 350 chemicals that occur naturally in strawberries?

If you knew the names of those chemicals you might not eat another strawberry or use any strawberry flavor.

The folks who create flavors for a living, professional flavorists, combine chemicals in a lab to create the flavors used across the food industry and in DIY.

Anyone can call their product, or flavoring, organic. What does that really mean? It means nothing at all unless a product has been certified organic by the USDA (in the states). To my knowledge there are no flavors that carry a USDA organic certification.

 

[MJCSD]

Hello and welcome to ecf

 

[ShowMeTwice]

If I went with the pg line do I need to steep the pg line as long as the alcohol line?

Yes. All Medicine Flower flavors require a long steep. 4-6 weeks.

Im not trying to make a clone of Kais either...

Why not? Cloning Romancing the Strawberry would not be difficult IMO. RtS is just a basic strawberry. The wife and I used to vape that flavor years ago when they were only known as Virgin Vapor.

 

[uthinkofsomething]

@JeffBass if you use an e-liquid Calculator you could enter all your ingredients into a recipe and see exactly how much pg you are using from flavoring.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Huh... I guess Im considering the Medicine Flower premium (pg) line in that case.

The MF Premium Line Strawberry is, IMO, the best and most realistic strawberry around. On its own it is pretty close to Romancing the Strawberry.

Mix a 10ml at 1%, a 10ml at 1.5% and a 10ml at 2%. Let them steep and see which one you like best. Last time I used the strawberry I let it steep for 4 weeks. It was good BUT after 6 weeks it really came into its own.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

Also, as I recall VV's Romancing the Strawberry there was no alcohol in it.

 

[Katya]

I have seen a couple threads discussing pg-free flavors, however I would also like to avoid artificial flavors because of the materials used in the creation of the flavors. Ive only vaped nat and organic flavors and would enjoy keeping it that way.

Hi Jeff and welcome. Why are you trying to avoid PG? If anything, PG is safer for inhalation and has a much longer track record (wrt safety) than vegetable glycerin. However, there are people who are sensitive to PG and they have to avoid it. Others are sensitive to high amounts of VG--like me. I can't vape anything that has more than 40% VG.

Now, on the subject of "organic ingredients" in vaping, may I suggest that you read a few of @Kurt 's posts before you commit yourself fully to organic vaping. Kurt is Kurt Kiestler, PhD, organic chemistry.

"Organic" Flavors

No one talks organic?

"For vaping, give me an artificial flavor made by a conscientious flavor chemist, who is on top of inhalation studies, over an unknown soup of masticated and concentrated food stuff any day. TPA and FlavorArt are two companies that are really trying to keep us safe, rather than play into our new-age preconceptions. The flavor industry is a VERY different thing than the produce industry."

 

[JeffBass]

The folks who create flavors for a living, professional flavorists, combine chemicals in a lab to create the flavors used across the food industry and in DIY.

Anyone can call their product, or flavoring, organic. What does that really mean? It means nothing at all unless a product has been certified organic by the USDA (in the states). To my knowledge there are no flavors that carry a USDA organic certification.

I did not know there were that many in a strawberry flavor but I can imagine, it makes sense. Rhank you for the info on no flavor having a USDA organic label did not know that.

Yes. All Medicine Flower flavors require a long steep. 4-6 weeks.

Why not? Cloning Romancing the Strawberry would not be difficult IMO. RtS is just a basic strawberry. The wife and I used to vape that flavor years ago when they were only known as Virgin Vapor.

Okay thanks for the info on the steep times. I could try to clone it, I wanted to get a grasp on flavors and ingredients I would like to use starting off and just make some simple recipes or single flavors before jumping into clones.

The MF Premium Line Strawberry is, IMO, the best and most realistic strawberry around. On its own it is pretty close to Romancing the Strawberry.

Mix a 10ml at 1%, a 10ml at 1.5% and a 10ml at 2%. Let them steep and see which one you like best. Last time I used the strawberry I let it steep for 4 weeks. It was good BUT after 6 weeks it really came into its own.

This is so great to know. I will be picking that one up for sure. Doing DIY is pretty exciting there is so much info out there, and what you can create is endless and wonderful.

Hi Jeff and welcome. Why are you trying to avoid PG? If anything, PG is safer for inhalation and has a much longer track record (wrt safety) than vegetable glycerin. However, there are people who are sensitive to PG and they have to avoid it. Others are sensitive to high amounts of VG--like me. I can't vape anything that has more than 40% VG.

Now, on the subject of "organic ingredients" in vaping, may I suggest that you read a few of @Kurt 's posts before you commit yourself fully to organic vaping. Kurt is Kurt Kiestler, PhD, organic chemistry.

"Organic" Flavors

No one talks organic?

"For vaping, give me an artificial flavor made by a conscientious flavor chemist, who is on top of inhalation studies, over an unknown soup of masticated and concentrated food stuff any day. TPA and FlavorArt are two companies that are really trying to keep us safe, rather than play into our new-age preconceptions. The flavor industry is a VERY different thing than the produce industry."

Thank you for the info here. I have heard varying information about the safety of PG. I eat organic and stick to simple ingredients. I read ingredient labels and avoid a lot of foods that may have a negative impact on my health. I know Im vaping so I am settling in that regard. I know PG is in toothpaste and deodorant, but I don't use either that contain PG.

I don't have a PG sensitivity per-se, but because it can cause a histamine reaction in some people I would just prefer to keep it low for my own health. I know that may not make sense. And learning what I learned about Kai's using PG I'm re-considering using PG if its still only going to be a small amount.

The best teacher is experience honestly, we can read studies all days but until we live it we only know so much. Ive been vaping a low amount of PG in my juice for a year and Im just fine the juice has never had any issues with me.

-- Now your point on the PG being healthier I did hear about a study back in the 40's or 50's where PG vapor was tested on rats and it actually prevented them from catching a virus the researchers had introduced into the area with the rats. Thought it was pretty interesting. PG has been breathed in for quite a while with out harmful consequences. I guess I am interested in learning more about the biochemistry of how PG effects our bodies in higher amounts. However on that note I should research the effect of VG as well.

I have done some research into understanding what makes a flavor Artificial vs Nat vs Organic. Seems not only is it the compounds and their derived sources but also the solvents(?) and materials used to create the final flavor product. I did learn there are Art flavors that are safer to consume than Nat flavors. So I do agree with that last quote, I would trust someone making an Art flavor who knows its going to be inhaled more than a flavor that says Nat made by who knows who.

I do vape a decent amount, I think between 8 and 10 ml a day.

I appreciate the info on TPA and FlavorArt I will look into those companies more. It makes me happy knowing there are companies looking out for us like that in this industry.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I would recommend trying some flavors from Flavour Art. Their strawberries are excellent and very realistic. I use a lot of their flavors. They are high quality and do not require long steeping times.


The following about flavors from the Flavour Art web site might interest you.


Natural and artificial flavors are defined for the consumer in the Code of Federal Regulations. A key line from this definition is the following: " a natural flavor is the essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate, distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root, leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in food is flavoring rather than nutritional." Synthetic flavors are those that are made from components that do not meet this definition.

The question at hand, however, appears to be less a matter of legal definition than the "real" or practical difference between these two types of flavorings.
There is little substantive difference in the chemical compositions of natural and artificial flavorings. They are both made in a laboratory by a trained professional, a "flavorist," who blends appropriate chemicals together in the right proportions. The flavorist uses "natural" chemicals to make natural flavorings and "synthetic" chemicals to make synthetic flavorings. The flavorist creating synthetic flavoring must use the same chemicals in his formulation as would be used to make a natural flavoring, however. otherwise, the flavoring will not have the desired flavor. The distinction in flavorings--natural versus artificial--comes from the source of these identical chemicals and may be likened to saying that an apple sold in a gas station is artificial and one sold from a fruit stand is natural.

This issue is somewhat confusing to the average consumer in part because of other seeming parallels in the world. One can, for example, make a blue dye out of blueberry extract or synthetic pigments. These dyes are very different in chemical composition yet both yield a blue color. Similarly, consider one shirt made from wool and another from nylon. Both are shirts, but they have very different chemical compositions. This diversity of building blocks is not possible in flavorings--one makes a given flavor only by using specific chemicals. Thus, if a consumer purchases an apple beverage that contains an artificial flavor, she will ingest the same primary chemicals that she would take in if she had chosen a naturally flavored apple beverage and the same chemicals that nature provided during the apple ripening.

When making a flavor, the flavorist always begins by going to the scientific literature and researching what chemicals nature uses to make the desired flavor. He then selects from the list of flavor components found in, say, real apples, generally simplifying nature list to eliminate those chemicals that make little contribution to taste or are not permitted owing to toxicity. (Nature has no restrictions on using toxic chemicals, whereas the flavorist does.) The flavorist then either chooses chemicals that are natural (isolated from nature as described above) or synthetic chemicals (made by people) to make the flavor.

So is there truly a difference between natural and artificial flavorings? Yes. Artificial flavorings are simpler in composition and potentially safer because only safety-tested components are utilized. Another difference between natural and artificial flavorings is cost. The search for "natural" sources of chemicals often requires that a manufacturer go to great lengths to obtain a given chemical. Natural coconut flavorings, for example, depend on a chemical called massoya lactone. Massoya lactone comes from the bark of the Massoya tree, which grows in Malaysia. Collecting this natural chemical kills the tree because harvesters must remove the bark and extract it to obtain the lactone. Furthermore, the process is costly. This pure natural chemical is identical to the version made in an organic chemists laboratory, yet it is much more expensive than the synthetic alternative. Consumers pay a lot for natural flavorings. But these are in fact no better in quality, nor are they safer, than their cost-effective artificial counterparts.

 

[ShowMeTwice]

I quit smoking a year and a half ago and only vape since then.

Couple questions...

Have you purchased any nicotine for doing DIY?

Or are you planning on going without nic?

If you haven't bought any nic NOW is the time to buy it. Soon it could be very expensive to buy any.

Here is a link to the vapocalypse calculator. It will help you figure out how much nic you may need. Vaping Community e-liquid Calculator - Vapocalypse Calculator

 

[JeffBass]

I would recommend trying some flavors from Flavour Art. Their strawberries are excellent and very realistic. I use a lot of their flavors. They are high quality and do not require long steeping times.


The following about flavors from the Flavour Art web site might interest you.
.

WOW this is wonderful. I appreciate this info and looking into this company I found out the managers/owners vape and are very supportive of the DIY community. I have been watching DIY or DIE for the last 2 weeks on Youtube and I watched an interview with the Flavour Art owners and it was incredible, they are really living the DIY alongside this community. Makes me want to support them. I am putting in an order of their flavors today.

Couple questions...

Have you purchased any nicotine for doing DIY?

Thank you for that calculator. Am going with Nic but Ive been vaping 0mg on my first RDTA where Ive done a couple test builds on it, the Steamcrave Aromoamizer v3. Finally got a build I like in it with the mesh. Ive only ran 0mg through it incase I need to pop the deck out and fix anything. I got it to a great spot a day ago, no dry hits, and that will be my main testing tank for my own juices unless I decide to spring for this Wotofo Profile I am kinda eyeing right now...

Now I picked up 1000ml of 100/mg that I diluted with vg to make 50mg in order to mix with. Im storing it in some nice glass amber bottles with good caps, one in the freezer and one bottle in my fridge, and a small glass jar I have in fridge for mixing.

When I started vaping I needed to use salts at 36, then cut back to freebase 18, now I only vape 3 and 6 mg. Usually have 2 freemax mesh pro tanks running one 3 one 6.
Running the calc on the high side for Nic amount and Ml per day, @ 6mg the Nic I bought lasts 5 years, @ 3 it lasts almost 10, so Im looking at 7 or 8 years if I don't mix juice for anyone but my self. As of now I only have one other friend who may be interested and I am factoring him in.

Im wondering if I should buy more. I could afford to spend another 100 on another L of Nic, before it gets taxed to 5k for a 100mg bottle. Its hard because looking at those numbers 5 years is a LONG time you know? So much could change in your life in 1 year. But I guess the real question is, will I still be vaping in that time? and I don't know honestly, but I don't see why not. At this point with the industry it seems better to be on the safe side. My friend mentioned I could always sell it if anything changes, so that might be an option.

 

[Bliss Doubt]

Did you know there are more than 350 chemicals that occur naturally in strawberries?

If you knew the names of those chemicals you might not eat another strawberry or use any strawberry flavor.

Yah, but in fairness, I suspect that those who want to vape organic are looking to avoid petroleum based products, sometimes for their own health, sometimes for the planet and the nasty petro politics, sometimes all of that. I agree there is no standard for "organic" in vape liquids, none that I know of anyway. It's up to us to pursue the standards we want.

I vape 80/20 pg/vg myself, but I also eat pizza and drink non-organic coffee (one of the most pesticide intensive crops in the world). I'm just saying I appreciate the thoughtfulness of seeking a standard of vaping organic vg with organic natural flavorings. Maybe there are organic flavorings. I'll be following the OP, and investigating further myself, to see what develops. If the nic comes from tobacco, then there actually is organically grown tobacco in the world. As with food, I imagine truly organic would make vaping more expensive, but worth the extra cost.

 

[Letitia]

MF flavors are well thought of Silver line is safe for vaping and many are used very low (0.2-1%) so are considered as ultra concentrates. The premium line are extra ultra concentrates and used by drops rather than percentage,; this means you would likely only have 1-2 drops per 30ml in the mix. Like any flavor company many are very good and others just okay.

 

[somdcomputerguy]

Welcome to ECF, JeffBass.

 

[BrotherBob]

Hello first post here

Welcome and glad you joined.