Being Reasonable as a Community

[shelleyb]

When you look at the FDA's history on vaping (two excellent summaries by zapped and kristin), how can any reasonable person trust them at all? There is no "reasonable" rationale for their actions to date. There is evidence to believe they are highly influenced by the Big Pharm. industry. When the people running an agency make decisions that could force millions back to an activity that leads to catastrophic health issues , how do they justify that? Or do they even care?

So what - you think the answer is to just rant about how awful the FDA is? How wrong they are? We have a political process in this country and it's important to any democratic society to follow that process (and don't look to Congress as a good example of that!). All I'm saying is that we, as a community, need to use the democratic process -- if/when the FDA issues regulations we ALL need to respond. We should ALL be writing to our Senators and Representatives about how vaping has helped us and those we know -- Ranting about the FDA isn't going to do any good - you have power in your vote and in your voice - so use them. That's all I was trying to say -

 

[CaliforniaGirl]

I'm not sure I saw anyone saying they should be banned. I DID see people talking about how stupid the concept is and how distasteful they found it to be.

Yup, this.

I believe that passionate "free speech" thing works both ways.

 

[Robino1]

All I'm trying to say is that you aren't going to stop the proposed regulations and you aren't going to stop final regulations with ill thought out ranting - I'm just trying to say that it is possible to get rational regulations (or even no regulation) if you make well reasoned arguments through the public comment process. You can sit here and rant all you want, but when the proposed regulations come out, and I do believe they will, we need to make good reasonable arguments and not just rant!

Kristin is on the board of CASAA. CASAA is an organization that is for Vapers by Vapers. They are fighting with rational well thought out responses to all challenges against us. She was voted onto the seat that she holds by vapers. It is a voluntary position and does not receive a dime for all the hard work that she does.

CASAA was started back in 2009, I think it was, when the FDA started their crap. She does know what she is talking about since she was there in the beginning of the FDA's attempt to regulate ecigs under the drug banner.

If you would like to know more about how you can also help, join CASAA and add your voice to the many that are needed in this battle. It costs nothing except your time when calls to action are sounded. Even that takes very little time to compose and send emails.

Donations are accepted but not required.

 

[shelleyb]

The FDA is furloughed, so don't worry. Your e-cigs will stay just as unregulated as your beef/horsemeat imports.

So true - as are millions of other federal employees - but the furlough will end and the regs will come out - so be ready for it!!!! Write your Congressmen be active in the discussion and don't let unnecessary regulations happen.

 

[peterforpats]

There's a Chanel forum?

yes , it's number 5 in the forum directory.......

 

[shelleyb]

Kristin is on the board of CASAA. CASAA is an organization that is for Vapers by Vapers. They are fighting with rational well thought out responses to all challenges against us. She was voted onto the seat that she holds by vapers. It is a voluntary position and does not receive a dime for all the hard work that she does.

CASAA was started back in 2009, I think it was, when the FDA started their crap. She does know what she is talking about since she was there in the beginning of the FDA's attempt to regulate ecigs under the drug banner.

If you would like to know more about how you can also help, join CASAA and add your voice to the many that are needed in this battle. It costs nothing except your time when calls to action are sounded. Even that takes very little time to compose and send emails.

Donations are accepted but not required.

I am a member and I do make donations - I'm not dissing on CASAA on anyone on the Board - I'm just saying that we need to remain alert and keep our voices raised in rational ways --

 

[Revelene]

I don't NEED someone to tell me what is safe for me. We as humans should open our minds and realize that the knowledge is out there.

 

[wv2win]

All I'm trying to say is that you aren't going to stop the proposed regulations and you aren't going to stop final regulations with ill thought out ranting - I'm just trying to say that it is possible to get rational regulations (or even no regulation) if you make well reasoned arguments through the public comment process. You can sit here and rant all you want, but when the proposed regulations come out, and I do believe they will, we need to make good reasonable arguments and not just rant!

1. I agree with you in "theory" about making rational arguments

2. In making "rational arguments" you are asking us to do something that the FDA has never done.

3. You are assuming that "rational arguments" will influence the FDA even though they have never, on this issue, provided any rational arguments for their actions.

4. When looking at the FDA's past actions and statements about vaping, what rationale do you have that supports your supposition that they will be influenced by rational arguments?

 

[Robino1]

Another point I would like to make: if not for ranting on ECF, new members and those new to vaping, would not even know that this device that has actually worked to help them quit smoking is under attack by the government. The same agency they have mistakenly placed their faith in to keep them safe.

My eyes have been forced open to see all the insane idiocy in government. I would never have dreamed that something so simple, that could potentially wipe out the cigarette industry, would or could be regulated out of existence. It blew my mind, what little I had left, that My Government really didn't care about me at all. All they want is my money and for me to die so they won't have to help me financially in my old age.

 

[Ref Minor]

1. I agree with you in "theory" about making rational arguments

2. In making "rational arguments" you are asking us to do something that the FDA has never done.

3. You are assuming that "rational arguments" will influence the FDA even though they have never, on this issue, provided any rational arguments for their actions.

4. When looking at the FDA's past actions and statements about vaping, what rationale do you have that supports your supposition that they will be influenced by rational arguments?

Will ranting help?

 

[peterforpats]

1. I agree with you in "theory" about making rational arguments

2. In making "rational arguments" you are asking us to do something that the FDA has never done.

3. You are assuming that "rational arguments" will influence the FDA even though they have never, on this issue, provided any rational arguments for their actions.

4. When looking at the FDA's past actions and statements about vaping, what rationale do you have that supports your supposition that they will be influenced by rational arguments?

well, if you are not for rational arguments then are you for irrational arguments? how far will those get us? somehow I don't see a civil war over vaping rights. could be wrong.....

 

[shelleyb]

1. I agree with you in "theory" about making rational arguments

2. In making "rational arguments" you are asking us to do something that the FDA has never done.

3. You are assuming that "rational arguments" will influence the FDA even though they have never, on this issue, provided any rational arguments for their actions.

4. When looking at the FDA's past actions and statements about vaping, what rationale do you have that supports your supposition that they will be influenced by rational arguments?

I do not disagree that the FDA is often not rational!! In my original post I said "But I also understand that those writing regulations are sometimes influenced by personal beliefs and not hard scientific fact."

Believe me I have seen the irrationality of government regulations, but I also know that public comments are the best way to stop the irrational regulations from becoming final.

I just hope that everyone in this forum will realize that if/when regulations come out they will be "proposed" and we have that opportunity to stop the insanity of the FDA if we respond in rational well reasoned ways --

That's all I was trying to say . . .

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I don't believe I said the need to regulate vaping -- I said the need for regulations. And I do believe there are somethings that need to be regulated. Just being against all government regulation isn't going to get rational regulations. Throwing a fit and said bad bad bad FDA isn't going to help. We, as a community, must show rationale that the FDA is not showing and going off on me and misquoting me is just proving my point.

...not going off on you, shelleyb. You did speak of 'the need for regulation' in a thread in which the context is regulation of ecigarettes. It is now clear that you may not have meant that to apply specifically to ecigarettes. As well, you haven't said anything specific on the matter...just trumpeting the necessity of regulation in general.

While I suppose 'none' might be an option, what specifically do you think might constitute reasonable regulation as relates to ecigarettes?

 

[TreVader]

Are you sure it's all the governments fault?

 

[shelleyb]

Another point I would like to make: if not for ranting on ECF, new members and those new to vaping, would not even know that this device that has actually worked to help them quit smoking is under attack by the government. The same agency they have mistakenly placed their faith in to keep them safe.

Interesting - I knew about the possible FDA regulations long before I knew about CASAA - in fact that exactly why I joined this forum and why I support CASAA

 

[Cool_Breeze]

What is 'rational' may depend upon what seat you might have at the table as well as what fundamental premise(s) you may ascribe to.

 

[Ref Minor]

...not going off on you, shelleyb. You did speak of 'the need for regulation' in a thread in which the context is regulation of ecigarettes. It is now clear that you may not have meant that to apply specifically to ecigarettes. As well, you haven't said anything specific on the matter...just trumpeting the necessity of regulation in general.

While I suppose 'none' might be an option, what specifically do you think might constitute reasonable regulation as relates to ecigarettes?

That eLiquids are manufactured in sanitised conditions, that the nicotine levels are tested for accuracy, that flavourings are approved for consumption.

 

[shelleyb]

.

While I suppose 'none' might be an option, what specifically do you think might constitute reasonable regulation as relates to ecigarettes?

Personally, I think banning sales to minors is the ONLY regulation that is needed. I don't want more taxes and I don't want online sales banned -- but have no problem with not selling to minors -- but even that seems silly since most retailers won't sell to minors anyway --

When I said I understand the need for regulations, I wasn't really thinking of e-cigs, but rather other things that really do need regulation. I'm not getting into those here because I've caused enough trouble as it is!!

 

[shelleyb]

That eLiquids are manufactured in sanitised conditions, that the nicotine levels are tested for accuracy, that flavourings are approved for consumption.

I agree with you Ref Minor that nicotine levels should be tested for accuracy - but I'm afraid even that is a slippery slope to over regulation and more taxes. I'm not sure how you reconcile the two. I believe that consumers can regulate the industry by buying for reputable suppliers and that even the industry itself could perhaps do self-regulation so consumers know who is and isn't using safe practices and safe products - personally I prefer that to government regulation --

 

[Robino1]

Interesting - I knew about the possible FDA regulations long before I knew about CASAA - in fact that exactly why I joined this forum and why I support CASAA

And I WAS the type of person that thought the government really did have my best interest at heart. I had no clue about ecigs or the fights that happened over them. I no longer take things politically at face value. Like I stated, my eyes have been forced open. I'm sure not liking what I'm seeing. I now question things that I thought I knew previously. It is totally sad.