Being Reasonable as a Community

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Ref Minor

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You missed the point, I was referring to your denounciation of metal compounds in your food. Your expensive cured hotdogs will contain metal compounds, possibly from something like celery juice if they are naturally cured. Without metal compounds in your diet you will die within the year.
 

Penn

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I make my own juice tyvm.

I don't need a government agency telling me what is good and not good for me. I'm an adult and can make my own decisions.

The FDA approves many things which side effects include suicidal thoughts, violence, and death. Anything they say doesn't hold much water to me.

I make my own juice too partially for the sake of knowing more about what is in it and partly for the savings.

The proper place for the government to me is making both sides of information more available then, as you said, let the individual choose. Except in the situations you went on to note - some things have such horrible side effects that they just shouldn't be allowed.
 

Ben B Brown

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the FDA is a government agency therefore they will do what they deam necessary to help the government so if they are losing millions of tax dollars IE: cigarette sin tax falling due to e-cigs sales the FDA will find a way to make it so they can tax e-cigs the same as cigarettes, it has nothing to do with your health or that of the children it is all about the money just my 2 cents
 

machiabelly

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Aug 17, 2013
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One of my main points in posting initially was that some vapers open themselves up to being taken advantage of when there is no regulation. Many ecig users are not half as informed about what they're doing as the people on ECF which makes it easier to make the mistake of buying liquid from a vendor who may put toxic substances in their juices. Just because they didn't do enough research prior to purchase doesn't mean they deserve to be (essentially) poisoned.

Tell me, for instance, what chemicals are used to flavor an NJOY disposable, one of the most popular brands being sold at convenience stores nationwide. And then tell me if you really know whether or not the product is safe. I think that self-regulation cannot really be possible without an outside body to oversee it, and I think that the FDA, good or bad, is our only option in this situation.

Also, thank you to those who corrected me about the function of the FDA, I did a bit of research and found out that they do not always run their owns tests but do oversee that proper testing takes place and verify all listed ingredients in products.
 

The Vagabond

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I can only assume you are referring to PBusardo, on a rant he rightly made regarding the behavior of some in the vaping community that would fuel the fires of those that would prefer that e-cigarettes never existed. Be they, Big tobacco, Pharmaceuticals , and those that resist change so much that they feel smoking is better for you than vaping. I agree with his take on Stealth vaping on airplanes and other antisocial behavior that incites the uninformed public that will only fair badly for the vaping community. It may not please us to be more restrained in our vaping simply because of the ignorance of the general public, and the those already influenced by the disinformation out there.

Many in the vaping community have seen some of the gains made in being allowed to vape in places come and go, because of the politics. When someone says "reasonable", the issue becomes who's "reasonable"? Vaper's would find it reasonable to vape nearly anywhere, whereas the little old lady at the local library doesn't want any smoke, vapor, or fragrance, wafting anywhere in her city... Reasonable will certainly have to side more on the conservative for the sake of the movement or face the highly restrictive legislation that can be bought or influenced by those funding the disinformation campaigns.

As for the FDA, which doesn't do testing, they simply review tests. Just like many they too can, and will be influenced by many factors. Public opinion is one influence they factor in, but at a much lower level compared to the tests commissioned by big money. Do they guaranty safety? Some would say they are better than nothing, others would say they are just another agency that can be bought. While this may be a bit inflammatory , it can certainly be said that they can be influenced by outside factors besides health and safety, compare for instance arsenic; in infant rice cereal had 120 parts per billion, too low to cause immediate health issues for consumers according to the FDA. While in Water or Apple Juice 10 parts per billion is the maximum level allowed by the FDA. while in cigarettes its harder to find a decent number .. there is 0.9 gm of tobacco in a cigarette with 0.04 micrograms of arsenic with no guidance given by the FDA. seems odd that pressures from rice industry and world economic issues makes it OK to feed babies over 10X the arsenic allowed in water. What pressures have hindered them from ruling on arsenic in tobacco cigarettes?

Yes we MUST be very conservatively "reasonable", and be the Gandhi like peaceful agent of change! We need to insure that the billions of current tobacco smokers in this world have the same opportunity to reduce their risk as we have enjoyed with vaping. If, as a whole, we are perceived as cloud billowing thugs and jerks that are pushing our own personal agenda against all others, then we will be lining up to buy our supplies from Big tobacco, Large Pharmaceuticals, or government run providers of the "approved" Yugo like e-cig devices, and unflavored nicotine in sealed cartos that will be the mainstream. and forget about being cheaper than cigarettes ...... as for vapor production, I'm sure that will be considered unneeded, some pencil pusher nix that for sure.

Or we can just continue on. Pushing the limits at every opportunity possible. Vaping everywhere, despite others, and their opinions. Insure we get bad press, and lots of it.

Either way let me know which way you feel is best...
 

OlDogNewTricks

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Also, they are human. Humans make mistakes, are susceptible to greed and all the vices. I am sure that there are people there that are trying to do the right thing. Sadly, in the machine that is government, that rarely is the end result. There are too many roadblocks. Add in, hugely wealthy organizations and corporations and you have a recipe for disaster. 1-800 bad drug is a perfect example of the failure of regulation. They don't have the time or resources to do truly extensive testing and if they did, how many people would die, not having access to life saving medications? We as citizens have the ability to effect government, but rarely do. How much moaning have we heard about people not getting out there and fighting for vaping? How few of us have gone out there and fought? Until the vaping industry has been around for 50 years at least, we'll have NO idea if this is safer, let alone safe. Asbestos anyone? We have no idea what the FDA is going to say, if anything at all. If you don't like the direction of the tide, change it responsibly. <gets off soap box> Thank you and good night, /end rant
 

Cool_Breeze

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One of my main points in posting initially was that some vapers open themselves up to being taken advantage of when there is no regulation. Many ecig users are not half as informed about what they're doing as the people on ECF which makes it easier to make the mistake of buying liquid from a vendor who may put toxic substances in their juices. Just because they didn't do enough research prior to purchase doesn't mean they deserve to be (essentially) poisoned.

Where are the links to the documentation regarding poisoned vapers?
 

machiabelly

Full Member
Aug 17, 2013
26
22
Philadelphia
I can only assume you are referring to PBusardo, on a rant he rightly made regarding the behavior of some in the vaping community that would fuel the fires of those that would prefer that e-cigarettes never existed. Be they, Big tobacco, Pharmaceuticals , and those that resist change so much that they feel smoking is better for you than vaping. I agree with his take on Stealth vaping on airplanes and other antisocial behavior that incites the uninformed public that will only fair badly for the vaping community. It may not please us to be more restrained in our vaping simply because of the ignorance of the general public, and the those already influenced by the disinformation out there.

Many in the vaping community have seen some of the gains made in being allowed to vape in places come and go, because of the politics. When someone says "reasonable", the issue becomes who's "reasonable"? Vaper's would find it reasonable to vape nearly anywhere, whereas the little old lady at the local library doesn't want any smoke, vapor, or fragrance, wafting anywhere in her city... Reasonable will certainly have to side more on the conservative for the sake of the movement or face the highly restrictive legislation that can be bought or influenced by those funding the disinformation campaigns.

As for the FDA, which doesn't do testing, they simply review tests. Just like many they too can, and will be influenced by many factors. Public opinion is one influence they factor in, but at a much lower level compared to the tests commissioned by big money. Do they guaranty safety? Some would say they are better than nothing, others would say they are just another agency that can be bought. While this may be a bit inflammatory , it can certainly be said that they can be influenced by outside factors besides health and safety, compare for instance arsenic; in infant rice cereal had 120 parts per billion, too low to cause immediate health issues for consumers according to the FDA. While in Water or Apple Juice 10 parts per billion is the maximum level allowed by the FDA. while in cigarettes its harder to find a decent number .. there is 0.9 gm of tobacco in a cigarette with 0.04 micrograms of arsenic with no guidance given by the FDA. seems odd that pressures from rice industry and world economic issues makes it OK to feed babies over 10X the arsenic allowed in water. What pressures have hindered them from ruling on arsenic in tobacco cigarettes?

Yes we MUST be very conservatively "reasonable", and be the Gandhi like peaceful agent of change! We need to insure that the billions of current tobacco smokers in this world have the same opportunity to reduce their risk as we have enjoyed with vaping. If, as a whole, we are perceived as cloud billowing thugs and jerks that are pushing our own personal agenda against all others, then we will be lining up to buy our supplies from Big tobacco, Large Pharmaceuticals, or government run providers of the "approved" Yugo like e-cig devices, and unflavored nicotine in sealed cartos that will be the mainstream. and forget about being cheaper than cigarettes ...... as for vapor production, I'm sure that will be considered unneeded, some pencil pusher nix that for sure.

Or we can just continue on. Pushing the limits at every opportunity possible. Vaping everywhere, despite others, and their opinions. Insure we get bad press, and lots of it.

Either way let me know which way you feel is best...

I appreciate your comment. It was actually the end of GrimmGreen's newest vlog that sent me down on this train of thought. I didn't want to call him out explicitly because I enjoy his videos quite a lot, just got a little irked by those last remarks, perhaps because of my lack of expertise on the subject. I totally agree with you about being courteous as vapers in the real world and that it doesn't do us any favors to be rude and inconsiderate. I was more focusing on the perception of the FDA and its role against the role of large businesses. I think that institutions are inherently self-interested, that includes the FDA but it also includes large businesses like NJOY or other large scale vape companies. So, I think its worth thinking about whether companies like this have our best interests in mind when they make a product, and I think we need to weigh their interests against the FDA's rather than just making inflammatory remarks about them without considering how they could help us in this situation.
 

EvilZoe

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peterforpats

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You'll notice it's a NEW member.

so the length someone has been a member weighs on whether it's a valid argument?
to the op- here on this forum(and everywhere else)- if they agree with you you've made some valid points and it should be discussed. if they disagree you are an idiot , govt. apologist, trampling their rights and don't deserve to live. and EVERYTHING is a conspiracy.....
 

EvilZoe

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so the length someone has been a member weighs on whether it's a valid argument?
to the op- here on this forum(and everywhere else)- if they agree with you you've made some valid points and it should be discussed. if they disagree you are an idiot , govt. apologist, trampling their rights and don't deserve to live. and EVERYTHING is a conspiracy.....

Excuse me, but I had quoted a site veteran and was speaking directly to his comment that it seems as though more members are saying things like this. It seemed pertinent that this person was someone who hadn't been engaging much in the community.

In fact, I DO tend to be concerned about anonymous people on the internet on sites supporting important causes where there are legal and political issues involved. Sometimes they are there to plant seeds of doubt. Sometimes they're just regular people with genuine concerns.

If you'll take the OTHER comments I made on this thread into the context, you will see that I've been pointing him/her to comprehensive information on this subject so as to assist him/her in getting a better understanding.

No judgment was made and there was no snark intended in my tone as you appear to have thought you perceived.
 

Iffy

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Oh my, where to start?

If I may, let me start by questioning the valid success of ANY national governmental program. I'll admit that there have been a very selected few that were successful and not influenced by industry/lobbyists and clueless 'voters'!

Who here gets 'heartburn', besides me, with the ads for our wounded warriors and their families care/well being when our grand 'system' is supposedly so great and then not take care of those who have sacrificed more than the VAST majority of those who benefit from their sacrifices?!?!? (Run on sentence? Yepper!) Does the word travesty ring a bell?!?!?

Can any ECF member here claim that anyone in their life has broken more promises than our "We're here to help you.." benevolent pols? Folks, WAKE DA FRACK UP!!!

Just to give some background, am a retired 20 year 'Nam vet that fortunately came back whole and have not requested any assistance from the VA, although I'm qualified (Noper, I'll take my chances via my own medical options decisions, thank you!).

Ummmm, why are the 30 second FDA/FCC approved medication ads comprised of 10 seconds on the benefits of the drug and the other 20 seconds drone the 'occasionally' detrimental/deadly consequences? Folks, WAKE THE FRACK UP!

And, now I'm expected to wade through an FDA apologist's ECF post to embrace a biased view of how I should surrender my common sense and 'bakky free existence with it's bountiful health benefits? Really?!?!?

BTW, I'll gladly don my ol' flak jacket... got me through more than any possible 'shots' here!
 

klynnn

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I really don't think anyone can post seeds of doubt here. Most of us are long term smokers and we have seen real beneficial results from vaping. I smoked 48 years with bronchial infections at least twice yearly. I lost work over this all the time. Of course I was dumb as hell to smoke, but I haven't been sick since I started vaping. I stopped buying all the junk/fast food that is promoted daily everywhere. I even tried the chantix approved by the fda and had major problems. You rely on them I'll stick to what I'm doing.
 

The Vagabond

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Sep 15, 2013
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I appreciate your comment. It was actually the end of GrimmGreen's newest vlog that sent me down on this train of thought. I didn't want to call him out explicitly because I enjoy his videos quite a lot, just got a little irked by those last remarks, perhaps because of my lack of expertise on the subject. I totally agree with you about being courteous as vapers in the real world and that it doesn't do us any favors to be rude and inconsiderate. I was more focusing on the perception of the FDA and its role against the role of large businesses. I think that institutions are inherently self-interested, that includes the FDA but it also includes large businesses like NJOY or other large scale vape companies. So, I think its worth thinking about whether companies like this have our best interests in mind when they make a product, and I think we need to weigh their interests against the FDA's rather than just making inflammatory remarks about them without considering how they could help us in this situation.

so for reference you are talking about the mention of "Charles Connor, president and CEO of the lung association from 2008 to 2012, joined the Electronic Cigarette Industry Group (ECIG) on Thursday as a paid consultant."
While I might be content to see some progress on the science over opinion argument factor this brings, I'm not totally sold on the Electronic Cigarette Industry Group (ECIG) considering a peek at their membership levels; ranging from 5000 to 250,000 annually. with no apparent members and a blog and social media pages that are in their infancy. I'm not inferring that it is a front for something, but I would assume a "consultant fee" for such an individual would not be small and more akin to a Lobbyist than a freedom fighter ... "Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
 

EvilZoe

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I really don't think anyone can post seeds of doubt here. Most of us are long term smokers and we have seen real beneficial results from vaping. I smoked 48 years with bronchial infections at least twice yearly. I lost work over this all the time. Of course I was dumb as hell to smoke, but I haven't been sick since I started vaping. I stopped buying all the junk/fast food that is promoted daily everywhere. I even tried the chantix approved by the fda and had major problems. You rely on them I'll stick to what I'm doing.

There are tons of new people here who don't know much about it. Heck, I'm one of them...or I would be if I hadn't been on this site and CASAA learning everything I can about it nearly 24/7 since I found ECF.

I've been making it a point to find out as much as possible and I'm a very fast learner. This is important as I can see just from my short time here and my own experience that it WORKS and people feel better and are actually healthier than when they were consuming tobacco the usual way.
 
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