Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[TWISTED VICTOR]

No, I never really had anything close to an immediate effect. It took around 5 hours to notice my anxiety level was lower than it had been (here's the post http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...we-getting-we-not-nicotine-83.html#post766633). I'd expect a delay, since absorption from droplets (as opposed to ash) is much slower, but I suspect my delay would be more uncharacteristic in a larger analysis. Vaporer had roughly the same results (http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...we-getting-we-not-nicotine-40.html#post721549).

 

[tceight]

ok, maybe it's just me paying close attention then. I need to blind myself somehow, maybe try putting a drop of the Cream of tartar solution into regular nic juice or something to try to make it taste the same. Then have two bottles secretly marked by someone and keep a record of effects for bottle A and bottle B.
Bearscreek,
I would be amazed if it is just a placebo effect due to the consistency of response, but then by the definition of placebo effect, I cannot be truly objective.
what I have noticed with all other NRT's I've tried, is that I have a low nic tolerance. The gum would give me a pounding headache within a few minutes. The PV will give me the same headache when vaping high nic juice, but takes longer, and I attribute this to the higher level of control of self titration that the PV offers, yet I still vape 'too much'.
With the WTA, I haven't had the headaches at all, and assumed it's because of the adequate satiation preventing OD'ing on nicotine. Then again, it COULD also be because there is very little nicotine in there.
I should try vaping my brains out on the WTA and see if I get that OD nicotine feeling.

off camping again for a few more days, enjoy life all!

 

[kinabaloo]

what I have noticed with all other NRT's I've tried, is that I have a low nic tolerance. The gum would give me a pounding headache within a few minutes. The PV will give me the same headache when vaping high nic juice, but takes longer, and I attribute this to the higher level of control of self titration that the PV offers, yet I still vape 'too much'.
With the WTA, I haven't had the headaches at all, and assumed it's because of the adequate satiation preventing OD'ing on nicotine. Then again, it COULD also be because there is very little nicotine in there.
I should try vaping my brains out on the WTA and see if I get that OD nicotine feeling.

off camping again for a few more days, enjoy life all!

If it works - can effectively replace smoking analogs - in a way that normal e-liquid, and NRT gum etc cannot then it is not placebo.

Importantly, such experience illustrates the point I made a little earlier - that a good case can be made for WTA being safer by being more effective (i.e. satiating).

___

Twisted Victor - good to see you still active around here

 

[tceight]

that a good case can be made for WTA being safer by being more effective (i.e. satiating).

Jamesam1243 being a perfect candidate, as the excess nicotine is causing him reduced peripheral circulation and neuropathy due to the diabetes.

Got a creative epiphany while off camping, and am building a mad scientist extraction machine in the garage for batch 2. muahahaha.

 

[tceight]

I was looking for the research that Star did to come up with anatabine and yerba mate as the alkaloids they chose to focus on.
Found this Patent by Regent Court Technologies, that describes the MOA-A and B inhibition in vitro of various tobacco alkaloids, and Yerba Mate as well.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6929811.pdf

Some very interesting reading, for those so interested.

 

[kinabaloo]

I was looking for the research that Star did to come up with anatabine and yerba mate as the alkaloids they chose to focus on.
Found this Patent by Regent Court Technologies, that describes the MOA-A and B inhibition in vitro of various tobacco alkaloids, and Yerba Mate as well.

Monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors and uses thereof

Some very interesting reading, for those so interested.

Interesting read. Have skipped throught it only so far but seems they have anatabine as the key player. At 0.2mg/ml that would be 1-2% of total alkaloids (rest being primarily nicotine), which is consistent with what I have written previously.

Also noted that they used a water-ethanol solvent as I have done.

 

[tescela]

I really, really hope that CigRx proves to be a highly effective product. Other than a bit of commentary from Jamesam1243, I haven't seen any other feedback about CigRx, which is surprising, because I figured this group would be all about trying it and sharing their experience. Are there reviews of CigRx posted somewhere else around here that I have overlooked?

 

[tescela]

I was looking for the research that Star did to come up with anatabine and yerba mate as the alkaloids they chose to focus on.
Found this Patent by Regent Court Technologies, that describes the MOA-A and B inhibition in vitro of various tobacco alkaloids, and Yerba Mate as well.

Monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors and uses thereof

Some very interesting reading, for those so interested.

Great find, tceight! After reading this, one wonders why Star chose to use anatabine and yerba mate extract, as opposed to the other options. Also, does the combination of those two produce a synergistic effect?

 

[kinabaloo]

No interest in pills.

 

[tceight]

Great find, tceight! After reading this, one wonders why Star chose to use anatabine and yerba mate extract, as opposed to the other options. Also, does the combination of those two produce a synergistic effect?

that's exactly why I was looking for their research.... they have the equipment and resources to narrow down the specific's. One has to be cautious reading patents though, as the patent process doesn't offer much protection and the best information/methods/ etc. is kept close to the vest.

Notice also the many claims, most probably have some basis, yet CigRX is marketed as a dietary supplement rather than attempt to deal with the FDA.

Just this week, the company that makes Botox is paying the U.S. government $6,000,000 in a settlement claim that it “misbranded” its product for unapproved medical uses.( treating eye spasms etc.) The company had even sued the FDA for blocking efforts to expand usages of Botox like treatment of cerebral palsy while the FDA had them in court. At best, the company 'made' about 250 million from off label uses. Rant ended. ;-)

I haven't seen any other reports on CigRX either. There is a thread on the NRT forum, but no first hand accounts. The CigRX makes me want to go out and try some Yerba Mate tea though.

 

[tceight]

No interest in pills.

just speaking for yourself, or do you wish this thread not to discuss alternate titration methods of beta carbolines?
it is titled, " Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid"

I personally am not married to vaping, and would love the idea of a WTA sub-lingual tab, or nasal spray if it had the efficacy and accuracy of vaping.

 

[tescela]

just speaking for yourself, or do you wish this thread not to discuss alternate titration methods of beta carbolines?
it is titled, " Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid"

I personally am not married to vaping, and would love the idea of a WTA sub-lingual tab, or nasal spray if it had the efficacy and accuracy of vaping.

+1

Speaking as a community, we need as many tools in our toolkit as possible. Vaping is not always an option.

Plus, it would seem that there would be a lot of overlap in research (i.e., learning about one could help you learn how to improve the other).

 

[DemonCowboy]

when is vaping not an option? i do so when and where i please, if i think there might be a problem i ask if there is then i promise them they will not catch me doing it there then (and they won't i'm a good stealther) it's not hard to keep something small w/ u for extra carts, batts, juice etc.

plus there are those of us who have no interest in quitting but tried this and find it a better alternative. i wouldn't find it near as enjoyable as a nasal spray or something i couldn't mess around w/. i think that's y i liked RYOs when smoking cause it gave me something i could do w/ my hands. for me this has turned into a hobby. i just want more effective stuff cause i'm noticing that my alternative is going on anti-depressants and/or other medications that will kill me faster than smoking ever dreamed of.

 

[tceight]

Demon Cowboy, different strokes for different folks. Many would ask why bother with any of this stuff at all when we have E-Juice.
For them, nic alone is enough... and for others, 'vaping' is enough, so why bother looking at alternatives.

besides the bother of having to fill carts, recharge batteries etc... there are places that I cannot vape, including where I work. There, I can't use gum or lozenges in certain areas, so have to 'stealth chew'. 'stealth vaping" would be somewhat more difficult, and I don't wish to make vaping a source of anxiety for myself.

 

[bearscreek]

Tceight, what does your liquid taste or smell like? Are you not mixing it with something else?

 

[DemonCowboy]

Demon Cowboy, different strokes for different folks. Many would ask why bother with any of this stuff at all when we have E-Juice.
For them, nic alone is enough... and for others, 'vaping' is enough, so why bother looking at alternatives.

besides the bother of having to fill carts, recharge batteries etc... there are places that I cannot vape, including where I work. There, I can't use gum or lozenges in certain areas, so have to 'stealth chew'. 'stealth vaping" would be somewhat more difficult, and I don't wish to make vaping a source of anxiety for myself.

well can u chew on a pen at work? what if u had something that looked like a pen u were chewing on? i might have a solution if u want. I personally don't worry about such things (i think it's cause i'm cRaZy...lol)

 

[tceight]

Bearscreek,
vaping it 'neat'. I'm not a big flavour connoisseur anyway, but I really like the taste.
The liquid has just a slight brown tint, and little odor. It's hard to describe, like tobacco but sweeter and earthier. The smell reminds of of a freshly opened pouch of Drum brand tobacco. and no, that's not what I used to make it.
Did you ever get around to trying it? I have some changes to the process in the works.

DemonCowboy.
In most area's, no. I can always go for a smoke break, and use it there, but at times I am unable to go for a break for hours at a time, and a quick tab would be the ticket.

 

[bearscreek]

Tceight, I'm just now getting my stuff together. I had to go get a turkey baster today. They only had a 30 mL one at Wallie World, but I suppose I can make it work. I hated to go on a wild goose (or turkey) chase all over town for a turkey baster. I was just wondering how it tasted. I'm not really big into flavors besides tobacco or woodsy, myself.

 

[tceight]

20g of tobacco, finely ground and packed down with the oil takes up 45ml of space.
One thing I was thinking of to 'speed up' the process a bit, was to use a narrower tube. 1/2 or even 3/8 of an inch. This would allow the oil to have a higher head pressure and more force.

The temptation will be to try to get 'as much as possible' from the tobacco by using a lot of oil.
This will work against you later though, when trying to extract it.

I've been punching some numbers to figure out why it worked, when the materials we are using are so inefficient, and one of the keys is to have a minimal volume of highly concentrated oil to begin with. I'd like to do another extraction 1ml at a time to see if there is a sudden colour change, and thereby have an idea of when the majority is extracted. I aimed for about 1ml per gram of tobacco as a starting point, and the extract after that was yellower rather than amber.

why a small volume?
because our second transfer into the glycerin is inefficient at the pH levels we are using.

assume for easy numbers we are getting only 1/2 volume for volume.(should be better than this)

so if there is 1000mg in 50ml, and we transfer to 50ml of glycerine,(all at once) there would be 500mg transferred, or 10mg/ml

if there is 1000mg in 100 ml, and we transfer to 50ml then we only get 330mg. or 6.6mg/ml


even doing a series of sequential extractions like I did the first time, it doesn't help a whole lot.
I ran some spreadsheet examples,
assuming equal affinity of alkaloids (worst case)
1000mg in 40ml of oil and extract into 40ml of pg, 500mg transferred
1000mg in 40ml of oil and extract 10ml 4 times 590mg transferred
1000mg in 40ml of oil and extract 5ml 8 times 610mg transferred

There are lots of ways to increase the efficiency of transfer, but they become tedious.
The best way is most likely to decrease the pH well below what cream of tartar can do, but we want to keep it vape safe, and this 'works' if inefficient.

One other thing, the wash step. I think I lost a lot more in that step than I needed to, so use 1/10 the volume I posted, or skip it entirely and the emulsions will clean it up for you.

 

[bearscreek]

Well, I just need to quit shuffling my feet (but I'm sooo good at it).