DVAP takes me to school again. lol.
forgot that its the number of 'free' +H that matters..
and you mean, pH 14 of course...not zero.. or am I missing something else too.
Last edited:
- Status
DVAP takes me to school again. lol.
forgot that its the number of 'free' +H that matters..
and you mean, pH 14 of course...not zero.. or am I missing something else too.
There is an acid that is "a million times stronger than concentrated sulfuric acid".
"The carborane acids are incredible proton donors, yet they are not highly corrosive. Corrosiveness is related to the negatively-charged part of the acid. Hydrofluoric acid (HF), for example, is so corrosve it dissolves glass. The fluoride ion attacks the silicon atom in silica glass while the proton is interacting with oxygen. Even though it is highly corrosive, hydrofluoric acid is not considered to be a strong acid because it does not completely dissociate in water."
What Is the Strongest Acid?
The explanaton of corrosiveness was interesting. The carborane is just a bit of fun.
"The carborane acids are incredible proton donors, yet they are not highly corrosive. Corrosiveness is related to the negatively-charged part of the acid. Hydrofluoric acid (HF), for example, is so corrosve it dissolves glass. The fluoride ion attacks the silicon atom in silica glass while the proton is interacting with oxygen. Even though it is highly corrosive, hydrofluoric acid is not considered to be a strong acid because it does not completely dissociate in water."
What Is the Strongest Acid?
The explanaton of corrosiveness was interesting. The carborane is just a bit of fun.
Last edited:
The short summary is that the next steps (for tceight and DVap) will be to :
* check how effective citric acid is for the extraction of alkaloids from the oil.
* compare the vape quality of alkaloids in salt form (simplified WTA process) with freebase form (DVap / lab method) {whether a pinch of carbonate into the acidified water after separartion from the oil would work to freebase the alkaloids (after first neutralising the acid) I'm not sure; haven't thought of another way as yet that is not a lab type process. VG / PG might need to be present to dissolve the freebase alkaloids.}
* check how effective citric acid is for the extraction of alkaloids from the oil.
* compare the vape quality of alkaloids in salt form (simplified WTA process) with freebase form (DVap / lab method) {whether a pinch of carbonate into the acidified water after separartion from the oil would work to freebase the alkaloids (after first neutralising the acid) I'm not sure; haven't thought of another way as yet that is not a lab type process. VG / PG might need to be present to dissolve the freebase alkaloids.}
Last edited:
Well, not next step, but down the line somewhere. I won't really be comparing the vape quality of purified WTA base liquid to simplified, but rather purified salt to purified WTA base... apples to apples.
I recall some time ago figuring out the volume of acetic acid required to achieve a yellow endpoint with bromothymol blue for a certain volume of a certain strength nicotine liquid. I then added the determimed volume of acetic acid to that volume of nicotine liquid. Ph was probably around 5+ and the neutralization of the nicotine (to 100% single protonated) also neutralized the acetic acid. This stuff vaped very much as good as "basic" liquid.
To check the vape quality of double protonated salt would have required I essentially drop the pH below 2.
BTW.. one topic that's really good for understanding acid/base chemistry is a study of the auto-dissociation of water. It's a neat topic.
Ever wonder why even the most pure water (no dissolved gases or impurities of any kind) still has a tiny conductivity?
Must be ions, right? But what ions, it's pure, right? There can't be ions! Wrong.
The mystery ions are simply H3O(+) and OH(-) via 2H2O ---> H3O(+) + OH(-). If not for the auto-dissociation of water, pure water would be completely non-conductive.
So is the danger in DVap's lab method not so much in that it requires the purchase and use of pre-diluted chemicals - which, being dilute, may be relatively safe - but in the alkaloid concentrate that their use would succeed in making?
Last edited:
Was just thinking about something that's probably at least slightly useful for anyone trying to understand acid/base chemistry.
We typically write water's formula as H2O. This is one molecular formula everyone knows, even if they have no clue about anything else in chemistry. When it comes to water and it's role in acid/base chemistry, it's more helpful to dump the H2O designation and use HOH instead.
The reason should be obvious to anybody who's begun to study the topic.
We typically write water's formula as H2O. This is one molecular formula everyone knows, even if they have no clue about anything else in chemistry. When it comes to water and it's role in acid/base chemistry, it's more helpful to dump the H2O designation and use HOH instead.
The reason should be obvious to anybody who's begun to study the topic.
Which might cause a bit of throat-hit
Seriously, though, the freebase might not necessaily be better; in terms of being successfully transported from atomiser, for example - though I see little difference there, both forms would need to be carried.
That's the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night ...
Life is unnerringly and unflinchingly mechanistic and yet there is a beauty in that mechanism. Maybe just like with, say music, the whole thing is a poem just waiting to be discovered. It's all so 'just so' and even though the fact that we are here to see that might suggest its just a random event, still .... hmmm why is reality a mathematical creation?
btw, how can yo be sure that the measuring current doesn't create the dissociation? edit - ignore, stupid question!
Last edited:
Probably could. I guess the oil would coat the little particles and make them hydrophobic so they could not be wetted anymore.
Makes sense the fine particles would stay in the oil phase now that I think about it.
That's brilliant - can't believe I've not seen that beofre; it instantly makes a lot much clearer.
As your Asimov footer says, that's odd ... Slopes also noticed this.
That's one aspect of it. Dilute strong acids and base are "relatively safe".. compared to say concentrated strong acids and bases, but they still demand respect. Another aspect of the hazards of a true WTA purification are some of the procedures and the equipment required to pull it off. In one such procedure, innocent lack of experience and knowledge (simply not knowing what to expect, when to expect it, and what to do about it so that it doesn't bite you on the ...) can lead to a pressurized release of liquid... which might well be acid or base at pH 1 or 13.
If you're adverse to soap-boxing, skip the rest...
"pH 13 caustic meet eyeball..." In my early days of work-study back in college, they made me watch videos with slide after slide of so much chemical burned skin and grotesquely f'ed up eyeballs and the like that I eventually started to get ill. I mean, after the first half-hour, I kinda got the message.. but they felt they needed to drive the point home ad-nauseum.
What would you rather get on your skin and not realize it? Strong acid or strong base? Would you rather get a good whiff of HCl (strong acid) or HF (relatively weak acid). If your first instinct is the Google for the answer, then you'd better think twice about about the evolution of your kitchen lab. (I'd much rather get the acid on me than the base, and HCl will mess up your day, but HF will make you dead... I don't currently work with HF, but it scares the hell out of those around me who do). Do you know emergency procedures for exposure? Do you have an eyewash? Do you know what an eyewash is? Would you know how to use one?
One aspect of safety that I've come back to on several occasions is the often heard, "I'll be safe!". The trouble is, being safe can sometimes involve knowledge and experience. More properly, "I'll be safe" too often simply means, "I'll be careful!". Careful and safe are not equivalent. One can be extremely careful, but a failure to appreciate a critical aspect or two can render one extremely unsafe.
Lets hope the citric acid works out.
If really need a stronger liquid could simmer it down to half volume or use a vacuum pump.
But in all likelihood we need only a weakish WTA as it likely 'other'-rich, and can then blend with high nic liquid if required.
Last edited:
that's odd ... Slopes also noticed this.
Yes, I got that from slopes, but why do you think this is odd? Doesn't it make sense that an oily particle would stay in the oil??
Yes, I got that from slopes, but why do you think this is odd? Doesn't it make sense that an oily particle would stay in the oil??
Not obvious if it started out in the water.
Your explanation makes sense though, oil is sticky stuff.
~~
The 'that's unusual/intersting/unexpected...' comes first; the eureka might follow at some point from pursuance of that initial observation ...
Last edited:
Wow...that is - without hesitation - one of the most succinct statements that I've heard from a safety standpoint. (I've watched and sat thru a 1/2 a lifetime of safety films/videos , procedures and training - (if any of you have seen the "Charlie" films
, you'll know what I'm talking about.....)Well Said! Great Job! Thank You!
Wherewolf
Isn't it simply that the water is heavier than anything else in the bottle - so it finds its way to the lowest point, below the rest?
kinabaloo - I've been simmering my liquids down, or just placing them on a hot radiator for a day or so. Seems like the most obvious way to increase strength.*
EDIT : ...*rather - to reduce volume, so a VG mix can keep near to its ideal consistency.
Last edited:
Seems reasonable to me. Just need to keep the maths up to scratch in terms of what concentration is likely at.
~~~
Eventually the particulates settle at the bottom of the oil layer. It could be an useful way of cleaning up a suspension of fine particulates.
Last edited:
"What would you rather get on your skin and not realize it? Strong acid or strong base? "
Acid= easy to rinse off, strong base= very difficult to rinse off. Needs to be neutralized first.
HCl= burns but not poisonous like HF.
I have worked with HF but always in a hood with good rubber gloves, etc.
"In one such procedure, innocent lack of experience and knowledge (simply not knowing what to expect, when to expect it, and what to do about it so that it doesn't bite you on the ...) can lead to a pressurized release of liquid... which might well be acid or base at pH 1 or 13. "
I bet your talking about the shaking in a sep funnel which can build up alot of pressure.
Acid= easy to rinse off, strong base= very difficult to rinse off. Needs to be neutralized first.
HCl= burns but not poisonous like HF.
I have worked with HF but always in a hood with good rubber gloves, etc.
"In one such procedure, innocent lack of experience and knowledge (simply not knowing what to expect, when to expect it, and what to do about it so that it doesn't bite you on the ...) can lead to a pressurized release of liquid... which might well be acid or base at pH 1 or 13. "
I bet your talking about the shaking in a sep funnel which can build up alot of pressure.
My take on the WTA has always been a bit different in that I'm not so focussed on the end product being technically WTA and only A, but on being able to get rid of the other stuff that is likely to gum up the atomiser (and ash on the heater coil). Boils down to a similar need purity in the end but I've never wanted to go the lab route and who would - we're not talking psychadellics or something people would go crazy for, just a better vape (there's always a perfectly legal option of smoking an analog afterall).
Now, it would be great if we could find a way to achieve a WTA that was pure and a match for any commercially produced equivalent. We may or may not be able to achieve that, but we can get close enough I think.
~~~
should add though that the lab work that is being done by those with the know-how is invaluable to our quest and without that we'd be nowhere.
Now, it would be great if we could find a way to achieve a WTA that was pure and a match for any commercially produced equivalent. We may or may not be able to achieve that, but we can get close enough I think.
~~~
should add though that the lab work that is being done by those with the know-how is invaluable to our quest and without that we'd be nowhere.
Last edited:
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
