Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[2cb]

It's known that BT and BPharma are keeping their heads very much below the line when it comes to e-cigs. Of course, both parties are well aware of the revolutionary potential of the new device and the huge shift it is likely to place on their markets if it were to go 'mainstream'. Both parties are keeping very quiet and both are probably very active in supporting government drives to ban these devices... and finding good reason to do so, one of which may be 'dangerous' unregulated WTA use. The cynical amongst us may believe that these agencies are simply waiting for the first e-cigarette related death before unleashing the full power of their move to ban them.

When the ban happens it will be on the 'liberal' grounds that more time is required for full clinical research into these devices along with thorough testing of the make-up and effects of the juices used - with an ideal time period being two to five years before a report is made and another review of the law carried out. BT and BPh (working with BGovernment) hope that this period will put all the local small traders out of business and cause the chinese to lose interest in production. When the e-cigs are passed for safe use, several years down the line, BT and BPh will be 'machined up' and all ready to step into the vacuum, selling their own 'official' products at vastly higher prices, with a large slice for the tax man, and running massive advertising campaigns.

i disagree with most of this. i don't think that BPharma has enough profit off Nicotine replacement products to warrant large infusions of cash into political pockets. i don't know the figures, but i can't imagine it is even near 1% of their profits. also, BT would have weak legs on the issue, because Nicotine is still coming from tobacco farmers, and BT would be in a prime position (if they are not already, i don't know) to profit just as well from tobacco extractions. also, not all people that use BPharms nicotine replacement products would want to vaporize. also, i don't know where people get the idea that govt can ban a device. would anyone care to cite an example of a "banned device" please? i never heard of such a thing before, and being active in law, i don't know where such authority could come from. i have seen banning "head shops", but that was local banning of a business establishments on municipal lands, not the illegality of a device. also, the ingredients used in e-liquids have already long been tested, and effects known, so would you care to explain about any semi-legitimate justification for testing or banning? i don't know what WTA is, so i miss that point. also, govt can do what it wants, but it doesn't change anything. they can make many things illegal, but that doesn't stop anyone from making them or buying them. markets operate regardless of "statutes/regulations" (which isn't truly human/natural law, but that's another matter). i don't fear govt as much as i fear the ignorance of the general population. injustice doesn't occur at the hands of govt so much as it occurs at the hands of juries. people only fear the power of govt because they are ignorant of law/govt/authority. in the most simple terms, govt authority over people only exists as a collective force to merely do what any individual has a right to do. if i can't do something to you, and you can't do something to me, then govt has no legitimate right to do that thing to anyone either.

practically speaking, i think this is to a very large extent fear mongering, though i won't say 100% as i can see avenues for regulating e-liquids if the market grows and the formulations become more sophisticated. i do await the day when people acquire enough knowledge to begin to put the fear of people back into gov, because until then, we only live in tyranny. mala prohibita "crime" is really just a fraud put over on people because of their ignorance of the nature/origins of authority/law. not enough people question the origin of authority.

 

[2cb]

'anihilate is the wrong word; think satiation.

I think this was tried by one or two people some time ago. It is one of those things that could be dangerous if one miscalculates.

The harmala alkaloids might play a part in the whole that is smoking but they might turn out to be minor players.

That such an additive might achieve some satiation is likely but it is not going to be as good as working with the complete alkaloid spread that is found in tobacco, hence Wta.

hmmm. i appreciate the response to my thought, though i don't know that Harmala alkaloids are very dangerous in themselves, requiring "grams" to kill theoretically, and creating severely ill and highly undesirable and toxic effects long before that. the main danger is use in conjunction with toxic substances that require MAO for destruction/metabolizing.

so, WTA is "whole tobacco alkaloids"? at least that is what i get from the context. i think that would be a little difficult because nicotine is miscible in water, but very likely, many of the other alkaloids are soluble in non-polar solvents, or only very slightly soluble in either polar/non-polar solvents, which would create a little problem in mixing them together in an eliquid, unless they prove useful in extremely small quantities that can be active in a suspension. a whole extract may also decrease the lifetime (to one degree or another) of atomizers due to the deposition/decomposition of various chemicals in a whole-extract.

on the topic of whole-extracts, it may be interesting if anyone has an oil-press. that might produce a worthwhile starting material as opposed to solvent extractions on plant material. just some thoughts. mostly i am here to possibly test Harmala alkaloids to find out if they give me the "i am done" effect after 10 hits or so. but it may be a few months before i can come back with any results. that is the main thing i am missing from vaporizing. vaping tends to make me sleepy and tired from so much nicotine - which never seems to "satiate"

usually after one cigarette, i feel like i will get sick if i smoke more. but it seems like i can vape for hours until i set it aside from a sleepy exhaustion.

 

[kinabaloo]

2cb - a cigarette would have in the order of only 0.00001g (0.01mg) harmala alkaloids. The dangers are very real.

There's a lot more info in this thread.

 

[slopes]

Hey kinabaloo - how about starting a new thread in this section called something like 'Whole Tobacco Alkaloids - Tips, Info and Help'? The first posts could be a run through of the main methods so far tried.

 

[VAP3n00b]

So I got some passionflower vg and put two drops in my tank. Feeling good now.

 

[kinabaloo]

So I got some passionflower vg and put two drops in my tank. Feeling good now.

Doesn't smell / rasre too bad ?

What strength extract ? and what volume is the tank - 3ml ?

 

[kinabaloo]

Hey kinabaloo - how about starting a new thread in this section called something like 'Whole Tobacco Alkaloids - Tips, Info and Help'? The first posts could be a run through of the main methods so far tried.

Have been thinking of this for some time but there's still so much up in the air, such as how well citric acid works.

Not ODing today ?

 

[slopes]

Have been thinking of this for some time but there's still so much up in the air, such as how well citric acid works.

Not ODing today ?

I've diluted the juice a bit - so it seems to be better now... but the cost is I'm vaping full time again. It must be a fine line getting it right. I'm thinking of getting some new kit - I ordered in three new atties last week and they are all bl**dy awful. I've been sticking it out with my trusty M401... but maybe now it's time to look out for something with more power and consistency. What do you use? I'll be looking for something which delivers throat-hit.

 

[kinabaloo]

I've diluted the juice a bit - so it seems to be better now... but the cost is I'm vaping full time again. It must be a fine line getting it right. I'm thinking of getting some new kit - I ordered in three new atties last week and that are all bl**dy awful. I've been sticking it out with my trusty M401... but maybe now it's time to look out for something with more power and consistency. What do you use? I'll be looking for something which delivers throat-hit.

A Mao-era 901

 

[VAP3n00b]

Doesn't smell / rasre too bad ?

What strength extract ? and what volume is the tank - 3ml ?

It's 1:1 extract in 1.1ml tank full of 1/2 24mg vg ry4 and 1/2 18mg 80pg/20vg camel tobacco. I can't taste the passionflower at all.

 

[kinabaloo]

It's 1:1 extract in 1.1ml tank full of 1/2 24mg vg ry4 and 1/2 18mg 80pg/20vg camel tobacco. I can't taste the passionflower at all.

1:1 ?

I mean the strength of the extract, however that's expressed.

~~

Couldnt find any online that are standardised, at least not mentioned.

This site does mention a figure of 45 drops / day of their extract for insominia.

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pa...utritional-supplement/passion-flower/~default

 

[VAP3n00b]

1:1 ?

I mean the strength of the extract, however that's expressed.

~~

Couldnt find any online that are standardised, at least not mentioned.

This site mentions 45 drops / day of their extract.

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pa...utritional-supplement/passion-flower/~default

Not sure what you mean. It's just natures answer alcohol free passionflower drops from the vitamin store.

 

[kinabaloo]

Not sure what you mean. It's just natures answer alcohol free passionflower drops from the vitamin store.

Just for readers of the thread - to know how much was used.

So VAP3n00b syays that 1 drop of standard passionflower extract (liquid) per 1ml e-liquid has a good effect.

Sounds a reasonable amount to me. Do let us know how it goes over some days. Be very careful of possible drowsiness.

NOTE: Most everyone here does not recommend that anyone try this.

 

[VAP3n00b]

Just for readers of the thread - to know how much was used.

So VAP3n00b syays that 3 drops of standard passionflower extract (liquid) per 1ml e-liquid has a good effect.

Sounds a reasonable amount to me. Do let us know how it goes over some days. Be careful of possible drowsiness.

It got pretty stony with 2 drops per ml...I dropped it down to one now and it's barely noticeable ....just like an analog.

 

[kinabaloo]

It got pretty stony with 2 drops per ml...I dropped it down to one now and it's barely noticeable ....just like an analog.

Thanks for the update. I know that site that mentions 45 drops is in connection with insomnia and is taken in water. Seems a lot - that something like 2ml !

Revised suggestion (ymmv) : 1 drop per ml Or about 2 - 5% PF extract

 

[VAP3n00b]

Thanks for the update. I know that site that mentions 45 drops is in connection with insomnia and is taken in water. Seems a lot - that something like 2ml !

Revised suggestion (ymmv) : 1 drop per ml Or about 2 - 5% PF extract

Makes me wonder what it's like taking 56 drops of this orally.

 

[kinabaloo]

Makes me wonder what it's like taking 56 drops of this orally.

Edit: In short, while 1 drop of PF extract per ml e-liquid seems not unreasonable, it is not a good idea to basically experiment in the dark (though the rationale and need is understandable).

And remember that this is likely a poor substitute for WTA.

Try to be patient, we might come up with something better soon.

 

[DVap]

DVap has seemed obsessed with the perfect, but is perhaps coming to terms with the fact that people need a choice between the very good (i.e., a relatively-simple, safe-to-prepare homemade WTA) and the analogs they will otherwise consume.

Obsessed? Not at all. I simply set my personal target to what is within my reach.

My opinion of the notion of a kitchen WTA process has evolved somewhat with time. A while back when Tceight was trying to get something off the ground, I didn't have a great deal of faith that it could be pulled off successfully, however, on the chance that it could be pulled off, I felt it was worthwhile to spend a little time discussing it privately with Tceight to perhaps help set him on the right track.

As Tceight has demonstrated some success, and others have followed his lead, I find myself very much in two minds. One happy to give advice and helpful hints as the opportunities present themselves, and the other worrying, "One of these guys could end up being "That Guy". The person who manages to bring together a mix of inexperience, carelessness, and bad luck into a perfect storm that results in something very bad happening.

Looking at tobacco alkaloids, and the relative harm of various means of getting them, the scale looks like (from most to least harmful):

Cigarettes -----> Kitchen WTA -----> Purified WTA

Snus/snuff falls somewhere on either side of purified WTA, but I'm not prepared to guess which is more or less harmful.

So, once demonstrated to have a degree of efficacy, kitchen WTA definitely has it's purpose. It does make me a touch nervous as anything we do (be it kitchen WTA or purified) may have unforeseen hazards, but the thing that really makes me uneasy isn't so much kitchen WTA, it's kitchen chemists.

So to anyone working on kitchen WTA either sharing their experience openly on this board, or quietly lurking and mixing away, please heed this word of advice:

Don't be "That Guy".

 

[kinabaloo]

In other words, be very aware of what you don't know, or think you know.

 

[DVap]

In other words, be very aware of what you don't know, or think you know.

Right! And don't try to get too "cute" mixing in a witches brew of miscellaneous herbals without careful and informed consideration.