Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[Virk]

Now, if I were a chemist, I'd check into what you said but I am not. I'm literally going on everything you guys have written here the last year and for that I owe all of you my thanks.

The amount of information put out in these two threads alone is amazing!

 

[kinabaloo]

Perhaps the use of snus r.t tobacco leaf, and the extensive(ish) filtering cuts down much of the gunk (except what is dissolved).

In the more technical approaches the carbonate solution gets all the alkaloids and the carbonate itself is left behind as the alkaloids migrate to the oil. It's also not difficult.

 

[Virk]

Perhaps the use of snus r.t tobacco leaf, and the extensive(ish) filtering cuts down much of the gunk (except what is dissolved).

In the more technical approaches the carbonate solution gets all the alkaloids and the carbonate itself is left behind as the alkaloids migrate to the oil. It's also not difficult.

Seeee there you go again, trying to get me to do ANOTHER set of experiments, la la la la, I can't hear you.
ok maybe I will.

 

[kinabaloo]

I just wanted to explain why the added alkali wasn't a problem in that method.

 

[kardenm]

The simple distilled water snus soak just seemed too easy not to try, so I did. Then I spent several days figuring out a way to filter the liquid. I found a combination of polyfil, cotton, and paper coffee filters used to strain the liquid by force through a large syringe works pretty good. I'm sure I'm losing some of the good stuff but at least it's cleaner and still works.

Yeah. Me to Virk. I used just coffee filters. Used a double filter first then another single filter. Was very slow but I let it sit for about day and a half and about 95% of it went through. I then let the liq sit open for three days and evaporated alot of the water. Could probably have let most of the water evaporate especially if warmed some and may try that next time. I had an unpleasnt experience when i was using a drip tip and got a mouthfull af spray. I think the water in the mix flashed off the atty and caused the spray.

If i get what i think is a good, consistent recipie I'll post it.

I am looking into setting up a better filtration system using suction. Figure I can use it for this and other methods.

 

[kardenm]

To use a high concentration of citric acid while avoiding (too much) excess acid in the end product, only a (very) small amount of the concentrated acid will be used relative to the oil. This would be difficult to separate but the VG can be added once the alkaloids have been protonated and had time to pass into the acidified water *needs more time when relative volume is small). It will then be much easier to separate the acidified water / alkaloids / VG mix from the oil.

edit : this might cause migration back to the oil if not done quickly, and its not easy as the VG and water would take time to mix, but we dont want to skake up with the oil present.

kina - I suspect that adding VG would not work as it may solubilize the water in the oil, or the oil in the water, sort of like adding alcohol whic is soluble in both water and oil.

 

[kardenm]

Anyone.

Im starting to think I'd like to switch to using tobacco with as few as possible addatives (flavors, etc). Does anyone have suggestions for what may be the most pure form of tobacco? Preferably something I can buy at the local tobacco shop and preferably in an untaxed form.

I do have alot of "Good Stuff" menthol. Other than the menthol, I wonder what else is likely added to this tobacco? And how about snus? What is supposedly added to this stuff if anything?

 

[kinabaloo]

kina - I suspect that adding VG would not work as it may solubilize the water in the oil, or the oil in the water, sort of like adding alcohol whic is soluble in both water and oil.

I also wondered that; haven't tried it but i don't think it will mix with the oil. The idea is bad anyway as I mentioned in the edit.

btw, you can probably just simmer to reduce volume without doing any harm. Suction should help the filtering; as would letting settle for a while (or spin on a string) to remove the bigger stuff first. Too much water in vape mix plays havoc; partly because of water's high heat capacity.

 

[tescela]

Maybe no-one can work it out because I'm not quite in the same boat as most people here.

kinabaloo: how are you "not quite in the same boat as most people here" ??? What does that mean?

 

[kinabaloo]

kinabaloo: how are you "not quite in the same boat as most people here" ??? What does that mean?

I meant I still smoke a few analogs. I wasn;t thinking about how it might take away the need for a smoke. Was only thinking about taste and buzzz. Then only later I realised - I didnt crave a cig !

 

[tescela]

It feels like we are getting close. There are a number of people that have used WTA and commented in the past, yet have remained mostly or totally silent since slopes reinvigorated the key participants. Why?

Virk's method may be the least pure, but it seems the easiest by far. kardenm's filtration approach sounds time-consuming. I'm not clear how long Virk's filtration approach takes. If we identify a rapid way to effectively filter the liquid, then we will have the magic combo of "simple, fast, easy and inexpensive," and vapers will start making and using it.

Then, they will want better, more pure liquid...and the forward momentum will accelerate.

 

[slopes]

The simple distilled water snus soak just seemed too easy not to try, so I did. Then I spent several days figuring out a way to filter the liquid. I found a combination of polyfil, cotton, and paper coffee filters used to strain the liquid by force through a large syringe works pretty good. I'm sure I'm losing some of the good stuff but at least it's cleaner and still works.

Hi Virk. Have you tried using oil to filter out your juice? I find it works well on capturing the finer particulates. You could try putting a 50/50 mix of your juice and olive oil into a bottle, giving it several good shakes over a couple of hours and then syringing off the water.

(EDIT: You might need to add a drop or two of vinegar to the snus/water beforehand to stop the alkaloids migrating to the oil - but kinabaloo would know more about this than I do).

 

[BCB]

I gave Virk some Swedish snus and he fired off some little bottles of concentrate from the various types/flavors with cautions to dilute it before testing. He also wondered if I would have as strong a reaction as he had because I've been using snus every day for a while now whereas his system is "clean." Here are some preliminary observations:

1. Got a little tiny "forehead flush" the first vape, but haven't noticed it since, so wonder if it was psychological or not.

2. The acid indigestion that plagued me throughout the last 25 years of smoking came right back and I had to eat a couple of Tums to calm that down. Not sure if it was the Mexican food or a response to something else. Still monitoring that.

3. I do not have the dramatic response to the WTA that Virk has. He recommended I dilute the stuff at a 1 to 5 ratio and his preference is more around 1 to 14 (by that I mean mix 1 drop of WTA concentrate with 14 drops of your regular juice).

4. It did seem like liquid cigarettes in some way at the back of my tongue. Hard to describe this, but to be honest it made me want a real cigarette because it rekindled some old associations with smoking that are good ones.

5. Vaping the WTA diluted to the levels recommended by Virk didn't work for me. I wanted a snus mini the way a toddler wants their special blanket. So I popped in a snus, vaped the highly diluted WTA, and was OK. (I'm in the middle of a messy remodeling project so have been trying to effectively monitor my experiences while still sanding/staining and have not been able to concentrate my thoughts on the ECF stuff).

6. I DID notice my desire to vape had lessened. I did not have to be vaping all the time anymore. Went a whole hour without even thinking about it. Was reading in bed, vaporiser next to the pillow and just didn't use it. That change was very evident.

7. Had a hard time going to sleep the first night. That is very rare. On 2nd night (with a snus mini in) vaped liquid with much stronger ratios (3 drops concentrate to 6 drops e-liquid) and just couldn't go to sleep for hours. This really is not normal for me at all. I'm a good sleeper. Definitely not going to vape the WTA stuff tonight before bed. I need to catch up on my sleep.

8. I had a friend who smokes try the WTA right when he would normally have a cigarette. Asked him if it gave him that "feeling" that a cigarette does. He said "the first hit did, then I don't know." I think he got nic but was missing the throat hit, but I'm only guessing. He liked the flavor.

All in all, have mixed reactions. Am thrilled we can make something easily, in the kitchen, with water and some squeezing. My desire/need to vape constantly was gone! This was the biggest change. My norm has become vaping a lot while using 3-4 snus minis throughout the day. If I vaped Virk's WTA with a snus mini my vaping went down considerably. I wish I could give more info but need more time to play with the stuff. I will say that putting Mocca snus concentrate into Caramel Mocha Frappuccino e-juice makes a truly fabulous vape! And I cannot thank Virk enough for his collaboration and hard work. He's just wonderful! I'm not sure if it's the magic ticket I'm gonna need to get on the train, but Virk is already on board and that's just great.

 

[kardenm]

I also wondered that; haven't tried it but i don't think it will mix with the oil. The idea is bad anyway as I mentioned in the edit.

btw, you can probably just simmer to reduce volume without doing any harm. Suction should help the filtering; as would letting settle for a while (or spin on a string) to remove the bigger stuff first. Too much water in vape mix plays havoc; partly because of water's high heat capacity.

I did wonder how much heat this stuff can take without degrading the alkaloids.

 

[kardenm]

Hi Virk. Have you tried using oil to filter out your juice? I find it works well on capturing the finer particulates. You could try putting a 50/50 mix of your juice and olive oil into a bottle, giving it several good shakes over a couple of hours and then syringing off the water.

(EDIT: You might need to add a drop or two of vinegar to the snus/water beforehand to stop the alkaloids migrating to the oil - but kinabaloo would know more about this than I do).

This sounds like worth trying.

 

[kardenm]

Thanks for the update Virk.

The distilled water soak probably captures about 30% of the alkaloids. If you can think of a way to alkalize the water in a way that does not add undue amount of unwanted stuff to the mix, you could raise the amount captured substantially.

Still thinking (see signature) but wonder if slight acid might improve (see post by slopes: Originally Posted by slopes
Hi Virk. Have you tried using oil to filter out your juice? I find it works well on capturing the finer particulates. You could try putting a 50/50 mix of your juice and olive oil into a bottle, giving it several good shakes over a couple of hours and then syringing off the water.

(EDIT: You might need to add a drop or two of vinegar to the snus/water beforehand to stop the alkaloids migrating to the oil - but kinabaloo would know more about this than I do).


But ultimitely I think extraction with basic water/oil followed by acid water extraction of the oil is probably best, simple method. Just need good way to filter the initial, messy mix. By far, filtering a water mix/solution is much easier than messing with oil.

 

[Virk]

Hi Virk. Have you tried using oil to filter out your juice? I find it works well on capturing the finer particulates. You could try putting a 50/50 mix of your juice and olive oil into a bottle, giving it several good shakes over a couple of hours and then syringing off the water.

(EDIT: You might need to add a drop or two of vinegar to the snus/water beforehand to stop the alkaloids migrating to the oil - but kinabaloo would know more about this than I do).

-Thanks for the suggestion, I will try this next but it will be a few days, I'm slammed doing a server intall. Can you be more specific about the vinegar, how much, what it does, and how will I know when I've used enough or not enough please?
---

~...tescela…"There are a number of people that have used WTA and commented in the past, yet have remained mostly or totally silent since slopes reinvigorated the key participants. Why?"
-A couple possibilities come to mind, risk, unknowns, what exactly is in this stuff questions, liability, but overall I think most people are happy enough with what they have and are more than happy to buy it at the already very low price.
---
~...tescela…"how long Virk's filtration approach takes?"
I didn’t want to wait for gravity so I force the filtration via a few large syringes, maybe 2 minutes per batch then decide how many times you want to do it, I’m doing it about 5 times per. The whole filtration process about an hour. The soak needs an hour minimum and I think once you get to about 4 hours there’s no more benefit. So pretty much, with a 2 hour soak, I can do a batch, start to finish, including prep and cleanup, in about 4 hours. If I had an area dedicated to performing this that was always ready to go, I could probably knock out a batch in an hour with the shorter soak. Batch = 1 tin / 20ml.
----
Virk

 

[Virk]

I gave Virk some Swedish snus and he fired off some little bottles of concentrate from the various types/flavors with cautions to dilute it before testing. He also wondered if I would have as strong a reaction as he had because I've been using snus every day for a while now whereas his system is "clean." Here are some preliminary observations:

1. Got a little tiny "forehead flush" the first vape, but haven't noticed it since, so wonder if it was psychological or not.

2. The acid indigestion that plagued me throughout the last 25 years of smoking came right back and I had to eat a couple of Tums to calm that down. Not sure if it was the Mexican food or a response to something else. Still monitoring that.

3. I do not have the dramatic response to the WTA that Virk has. He recommended I dilute the stuff at a 1 to 5 ratio and his preference is more around 1 to 14 (by that I mean mix 1 drop of WTA concentrate with 14 drops of your regular juice).

4. It did seem like liquid cigarettes in some way at the back of my tongue. Hard to describe this, but to be honest it made me want a real cigarette because it rekindled some old associations with smoking that are good ones.

5. Vaping the WTA diluted to the levels recommended by Virk didn't work for me. I wanted a snus mini the way a toddler wants their special blanket. So I popped in a snus, vaped the highly diluted WTA, and was OK. (I'm in the middle of a messy remodeling project so have been trying to effectively monitor my experiences while still sanding/staining and have not been able to concentrate my thoughts on the ECF stuff).

6. I DID notice my desire to vape had lessened. I did not have to be vaping all the time anymore. Went a whole hour without even thinking about it. Was reading in bed, vaporiser next to the pillow and just didn't use it. That change was very evident.

7. Had a hard time going to sleep the first night. That is very rare. On 2nd night (with a snus mini in) vaped liquid with much stronger ratios (3 drops concentrate to 6 drops e-liquid) and just couldn't go to sleep for hours. This really is not normal for me at all. I'm a good sleeper. Definitely not going to vape the WTA stuff tonight before bed. I need to catch up on my sleep.

8. I had a friend who smokes try the WTA right when he would normally have a cigarette. Asked him if it gave him that "feeling" that a cigarette does. He said "the first hit did, then I don't know." I think he got nic but was missing the throat hit, but I'm only guessing. He liked the flavor.

All in all, have mixed reactions. Am thrilled we can make something easily, in the kitchen, with water and some squeezing. My desire/need to vape constantly was gone! This was the biggest change. My norm has become vaping a lot while using 3-4 snus minis throughout the day. If I vaped Virk's WTA with a snus mini my vaping went down considerably. I wish I could give more info but need more time to play with the stuff. I will say that putting Mocca snus concentrate into Caramel Mocha Frappuccino e-juice makes a truly fabulous vape! And I cannot thank Virk enough for his collaboration and hard work. He's just wonderful! I'm not sure if it's the magic ticket I'm gonna need to get on the train, but Virk is already on board and that's just great.

~BCB….. Ok so now we have some mixed results on my WTA. On one hand it’s too weak and another it’s too strong, but it does reduce the urge to vape somewhat. I think experimenting until we can find the right proportion will take some time and will be different for each person.

1. Forehead flush at first. I think this comes down to tolerance.
2. Acid indigestion. You’re not suppose to drink it! Ok I kid, that happened to me as well until I diluted more.
3. Dilution. 1 to 5 is because the water content is not atty friendly. You can go to 1 to 4 but I’d watch out for solar flares. 1 to 14 would be for a daily vape which has no affects but serves it’s purpose of getting you what you ‘need’. I am now using about 1 to 9 most of the time.
4. Addiction. I believe there is a psychological link here with wta and it makes you want more.
5. Potency. This reinforces the findings so far that current tobacco / snus users still have a tolerance built up to WTA (MAOIs)? And need more than non users do? This gets more complicated the farther we go doesn’t it? So many variables beginning to come into play here.
6. Desire to vape is less! Ok now we’re talking, this is one of our goals right? Especially considering my method produces a relatively weak liquid compared to other methods, I think this shows the potential of even lousy WTA.
7. Can’t sleep… Now we jump back to too strong, ‘course at a dilution of 1 to 2, (3 to 6), I’m surprised the solar flares and plasma ejections didn’t get ya lol.
8. More test subjects! … Smokers NEED more nic and TH. This is easily fixed. But again, this confirms that my WTA is very low in nicotine content, my guess is around 2mg/ml. and negligible when diluted.

BCB thank you very much for the review, for sending the Swedish snus to me to experiment with and for testing this home WTA brew. Funny thing is I still prefer the Marlboro Mint snus myself. If I’m interpreting the results correctly here’s what we have so far:

~Taste is good but there is no TH. (low nic, we can fix this)
~You’re vaping less often, the craving is partly satiated. (one goal achieved already).
~You’re a SNUS user and heavy vaporer and still need more than my concentration of WTA provides. I think this can be fixed, I was just extremely cautious about strengths, the unknowns, and having you test it.
~But, too strong and you can’t sleep. This one has me perplexed. It’s too strong but not strong enough. Is there an ingredient missing from the Distilled Water extraction process???

Is it possible that my rudimentary mechanical filtering is removing too much???

I’ll have to play with the earlier suggestions of using the oil to clean up the liquid instead of filtering. I predict a few popped atty’s in my future!

Thanks BCB!

Virk

 

[Virk]

Thanks for the update Virk.

The distilled water soak probably captures about 30% of the alkaloids. If you can think of a way to alkalize the water in a way that does not add undue amount of unwanted stuff to the mix, you could raise the amount captured substantially.

Any suggestions or hints???
Also, in my previous post I ask two questions towards the bottom. (in bold)
And two posts back I ask about the vinegar if you have any info to add to help me here would be great.

 

[kinabaloo]

Hi Virk. Have you tried using oil to filter out your juice? I find it works well on capturing the finer particulates. You could try putting a 50/50 mix of your juice and olive oil into a bottle, giving it several good shakes over a couple of hours and then syringing off the water.

(EDIT: You might need to add a drop or two of vinegar to the snus/water beforehand to stop the alkaloids migrating to the oil - but kinabaloo would know more about this than I do).

Well worth a try; perhaps a smaller amount first.