Beware of the Quit Smoking Purists

[revolver]

I have not read the entire thread...

I will say this though...

Dinosaurs and Evolution.

Even though the OP and others are right... Meaning we certainly DO NOT smoke anymore... You should also bear in mind that there is a clinic/ therapeutic tradition when it comes to the 'quitting smoking' agenda which has been "out there" for a very long time and, because of the very "traditional facts" it was entitled to make a connection between smoking traditional cigarettes and the NEGATIVE effects on health; cause the former, consequence the latter...
Nowadays there is a new way which is SAFER and could imply some sort of 'extension' of the 'puffing habit'... This means that the very behaviour is still "active"...
Not a problem, since the big issue was the unhealthy factor in the first place...
But...
The before mentioned tradition could afford to associate the smoking habit/ behavioral aspect to the effects... And they even ended up seeing those two as counter-parts to the very same core of the issue... Leading to a whole implicit philosophy based on that concept... This notion became the basis to their formulations and is right now a DOGMA to the academical approach on quitting and thus clinical.
While this used to be logical it simply makes no sense anymore in terms of newer possibilities based on technological development...
Because, even when we considered that the e-cig user is smoking ("electronically"), as in the habit 'is still there'... Well... Maybe, but even then you couldnt afford to claim this makes for the same DEADLY former habit... Is this a new way to 'recycle' the habit? An extension?
This is a matter of interpretation... But... Even when we agreed on this... The down-sides to smoking which made it necessary for a quitting serious agenda to be available in the first place would not be there anymore...
This is why Doctors and 'quitters-wanna-be' wont accept this... The fact they are biased out of putting a lot of energy, work and study for years; decades of effort...
The very same doctors who SHOULD have tested the e-cig from a start but did not because they DEPEND on the close circuit that 'connects' them to Big Pharma... They would only rely on what Big Pharma gives them...

Do you think that those doctors, with all their PHDs and stuff are going to so simply accept that an ordinary chinese out there, with a simple battery, coil and some vanilla escence has FOUND what they, with all their knowledgeable backgrounds couldnt?

Mmmm...

These very people who have always claimed smokers are in denial because nobody could ever possibly want to smoke are the very ones in denial right now...
They are not very professionally-oriented... And, of course they aren't...
This is not science anymore; it has become more of a 'religion' to them...
Smoking is the devil and the habit is sin... If you try to beat the devil with technology you are still a sinner...!
Is this logical thinking or fundamentalism, rather?

This is a typical case of a biased 'old model' which they will try to re-enforce now even harder... Otherwise it could mean their whole decades research might end up in the bin...
Of course they wont fight us back with logics... They dont stand a chance...
They will try to hit us with lies, confusion and such...
Nevertheless...
We should not go mad... No matter how 'powerful', big and terrible they are... They are dinosaurs, all right... But we shouldnt hate this...
On the contrary, we should lay back and simply enjoy this 'revolutionary' process of change...
Relying on evolution doing its work...
Again...

Drama.

 

[nitejanitor]

Whenever someone brags to me about quitting smoking, I say "I'm sorry to here that. Would like a cigarette?"

whats the point in offering a person who quit a smoke-thats like going to the Q board where people have QUIT smoking & saying we know you love to go back to smoking but why not try the E cig instead???

 

[nitejanitor]

John Phoenix should be congratulated for a well thought out post on that board and maybe the cooler heads over there will see it for what it really is. I don’t feel the need to join in the fight because I believe that it does no good to wallow around in the mud with a pig because the pig loves it.

I visited the site a few months back from a recommendation here on ECF. I went back a few nights ago and found that it hasn’t changed. I checked out the statistics and saw that the site only has 5500 members and there were two members and seven guests on-line. I did not find when the site was started but the oldest post I could find was in 2006. By these numbers the site doesn’t appear to be a roaring success and perhaps that is why a handful of these folks are so angry and fanatic. They might perceive that the PV has diminished the value of their accomplishment and it frustrates them to no end. In the back and forth in the thread it’s clear which side is irrational and if these folks are an example of what going cold turkey can do to the brain it might not be such a good idea after all. I think a good dose of nicotine is what they really need.

I love it when other website come & push their beliefs on other websites-we call it trolling.............

 

[earthpig]

Edwv30.
You need to give some details.
I see on ECF, many folks who vape a massive amount of ml of e-juice a day. I don't know how they do it, unless the clouds are like a few cigars going at the same time and constant through the day. Were talking 4 ml to 6ml +.
Anything ingested or eaten needs metabolized. Too much of anything cannot be good.

I don't know your specific case, and I don't know your personal medical conditions, but your case is definitely a rarity.

Those who claim e-cigs are safe, need a wake up call especially in the flavoring components, but with that said, they are a multiple of at least 100x + safer by all studies. That doesn't mean that now we can vape 5 times as much as we smoke, because a false sense of security.
This is "Harm reduction" NOT "Harm elimination", but it is a large multiple safer than cigs.

Sorry to hear of your complications, but you really need to give more specifics. My Holistic Doctor would disagree with your general assumptions, and took the time to explain how PG is metabolized, and how well. He is thrilled with the products.

Pig

 

[Elphaba13]

Just curious-have you ever considered why other quit methods have failed for you is because- I'm a loser & i can't quit attitude or hey i tried & just couldn't quite cut it???? For me until I changed my attitude no matter what method I tried IT failed-not me but the crutch i used-must be wanting to be free gave me that SPECIAL EDGE in order to be free for more then 8 months-duh you think???

Welcome to the forums, Greenie. Care for a vape? I have some rather tasty hopscotch 18mg juice you will just ADORE!

 

[nitejanitor]

Once you accept that those people are about quitting the ADDICTION/HABIT and not just about quitting SMOKING, then it makes no sense to even post about e-cigarettes there. That site is misleading, because it claims to be about quitting smoking, but it's really about quitting addiction and habit. People who are committed to quitting nicotine and the habit are not going to see any value in e-cigarettes, because they do continue the use of nicotine and/or the habit of hand-to-mouth/inhaling something.

There are a great many smokers who will not or can not quit nicotine or the habit - they just want to quit exposing themselves to the health risks of smoking - and attempting abstinence usually fails. Many, if not most, of us here fall under that category. We are the ones who benefit from tobacco harm reduction products such as e-cigarettes and smokeless tobaccos.

The problem is when abstinence proponents ignore the continued health risks for those who don't really want to quit smoking (but know they should) or can't use traditional methods, by insisting that abstinence is the only answer and refuse to acknowledge tobacco harm reduction as an option for those others. They insist on trying to make those who choose to practice harm reduction feel guilty for not quitting the addiction. They (and we) need to acknowledge that there are two different goals (quitting addiction vs. quitting smoke exposure) with the same end result - ex-SMOKERS.

So, if you are going to post over there, you need to make the distinction between quitting smoking and quitting addiction and acknowledge their goals as valid as well as your own - just different. Make your "pitch" to those who may come across the site and realize their goal is really just to quit smoking, not quit nicotine or the habit and that there is nothing wrong with that.

A good analogy would be like body builders having a discussion with people just trying to get in shape. While getting in shape is a common goal, the people trying to just lose weight aren't really going to be interested in going to the same extremes as the body builders. Body builders will insist on an extreme fitness regimen and diet to go beyond losing weight and bulking up. So the ultimate goal is very different. But it wouldn't be fair for the body builders to berate the others for just wanting to lose some weight.

While our forum and their forum share a goal of quitting smoking, our goal ends there, while their goal is to continue on to quit the addiction itself. Where I feel they go wrong is expecting everyone to want to achieve the same goal and making people feel inferior if they don't.

I pretty much liked this post-see over there they also believe in Not One Puff Ever & should you take a hit or God forbid smoke a whole cig-bam you have to reset your quit meter to zero-now maybe you'll understand where their coming from.

 

[nitejanitor]

Sorry to chicken with my luck one hit & I'd be back smoking 2 packs a day again. Nice of you to offer tho.

 

[earthpig]

revolver.
Only disagreement I have is with your "doctor" statements.
I have 2 doctors which I use that are behind this and a 3rd pulmo doc who distributes flyers in his office for e-cigs.
Doctors worth their salt and out for the good of their patients could care less about Pharma ties and aren't bought off.
Those who are bought off need avoided.

 

[RichardLOZ]

Just curious-have you ever considered why other quit methods have failed for you is because- I'm a loser & i can't quit attitude or hey i tried & just couldn't quite cut it???? For me until I changed my attitude no matter what method I tried IT failed-not me but the crutch i used-must be wanting to be free gave me that SPECIAL EDGE in order to be free for more then 8 months-duh you think???

Nice to see some of the QSMB members over here now, but I guess that was to be expected. I really do not know why I am bothering to feed but what the hell. I know EXACTLY why other methods failed for me. Its because I do actually enjoy smoking, just like I enjoy my coffee, and I wont even mention how much coffee I drink. I enjoy my soda, I enjoy fried food, I actually enjoy life. With vaping I can still maintain the same enjoyment, if not even more enjoyment with the array of flavours available and be a whole lot more healthy into the bargin.

Ultimately that is totally my choice and my choice alone. It is a decision I have made and a path I have chosen to follow. I do not need nor want people to pat me on the back for "finding my quit", nor do I need a bunch of zealots telling me that before I have a smoke I MUST post as SOS and I MUST wait till AT LEAST 3 members respond to it. What the hell are we, bloody children or adults? We make our own INFORMED decisions. We choose to make our own bed and lay in it as I have done.

I have done what is right for ME, and I'll be buggered if anyone else is going to tell me what I bloody can and cant do, or what is bloody right or wrong.

Having said that I am now going to happily go back to my Hazelnut Latte / Vanilla Ice-Cream mix, with a nice coffee, put my feet up and watch some TV, before retiring to bed for another day in the office. I am happy, I am content. I would love dearly to be able to say the same about you. Maybe one day when you have stopped being so damn bitter and twisted, you can also be happy and content.

Have a nice night / morning, whatever it is where you are located.

All the best

Richard

 

[ShannonA]

Just curious-have you ever considered why other quit methods have failed for you is because- I'm a loser & i can't quit attitude or hey i tried & just couldn't quite cut it???? For me until I changed my attitude no matter what method I tried IT failed-not me but the crutch i used-must be wanting to be free gave me that SPECIAL EDGE in order to be free for more then 8 months-duh you think???

Its just silly for anyone to presume to know why something doesn't work for someone else. You're you can only speak for why things do or do not work for you. Everyone is different there's no one size fits all quit method.

 

[ShannonA]

Well people ON that forum came there with a desire to quit smoking not exchange the nic delivery system theirs some there who have been quit for over 5 yrs-alot are at least a yr free-their not all bitter ex smokers but people who believe that their happy not being a smoke slave anymore.

I don't believe most of us think they're all a bunch of bitter ex smokers. I do think a handful of them are very imature when agitated and that their point would get much further if they expressed them respectfully rather than showing intolerance and derision. Incidentally I have quit smoking and exchanged one nicotine delivery device for another...for now. I do not smoke in order to smoke there must be "smoke" involved....period. I do hower still inhale nicotine.

 

[pmos69]

Do you expect to win against big-pharma + big-tobacco + big-government?

Do not forget big-government.
I'm from a small country (total population less than the population in London).
In this country, the government makes 1.4B€ a year in taxes over tobacco.
Do you expect them to give it up, just like that?

 

[ShannonA]

Absolutely incorrect Kristin. I will follow up later with evidence. My kidneys started to shut down due to vaping....I have tests prior to vaping, during vaping and after vaping[/B] to prove my point. I was referred to a Nephrologist due to my kidney function being so low....it is now normal since stopping PG. Please stop spreading the lies in order to further your "truth."

Why would you have a test prior to vaping if you were having no problems? I'm only asking because generally medical tests are given to find out the cause of a problem or to see if a given condition is improving or deteriorating.

 

[Edwv30]

Why would you have a test prior to vaping if you were having no problems? I'm only asking because generally medical tests are given to find out the cause of a problem or to see if a given condition is improving or deteriorating.

I was having chest pains and heart palpitations so a full workup was done, (bloodwork, stress test, holter moniter, etc.). My kidney function and protein levels were within normal range at that time. After I started vaping I started having horrible symptoms such as extreme exhaustion, muscle pain and rashes. My doctor ordered bloodwork and saw that my kidney function dropped to 59% with high levels of protein. I stopped vaping PG for three months and my kidney function is now at 74%....not great but not critical. My protein levels were 600% greater than normal and are now half that....again not good but better. I will follow up again in three months with another 24 hour urine test and bloodwork. It has been a scary experience and the constant blood\urine testing has been a pain.

 

[Samalie0]

Hi all,

Yes, I'm the same Sammy from "over there" that did get PO'd last night at this whole fight. But if I may, I'd like to respectfully state my thoughts...

I (and I believe most of us "over there") do not have a problem with anyone's quitting method, whether big-pharma antidepressants, NRT, Cold Turkey, and yes, even e-cigs. I know my personal thought is whatever gets you free is a Good Thing.

And, with all respect, we are not a bunch of angry ex-smokers desperately clinging to our no-nicotine mantra in a daily struggle to remain off of tobacco/nicotine...or at least I'm not personally. I tried quitting probably hundreds of times over the years using every single possible method (except Champex, and yes, including e-cigs) and not a bloodly thing worked for me until I was actually ready to quit...and when I was, I had very little difficulty quitting cold turkey. That was nearly 2 1/2 years ago now, and I can honestly say that I am not tempted to ingest nicotine in any form any longer.

Anyway, I digress...the bottom line is we are generally accepting of e-cig users that are working their way down to 0 nicotine. I'll be honest, I personally feel that continuing to use 0mg cartridges in an e-cig after quitting nicotine to be silly and "stupid", as it is an $$ expense for what is essentially flavored air, but to each their own. Anyone on 0mg nicotine is entirely quit, and anyone working at that goal, regardless of approved or not NRT methods, is welcome at our boards.

My issue, and I believe it is the issue of many of the other members there, are the e-cig users that are happy to be nicotine addicts, and have no desire or intention to going nicotine free. THe reason I have a problem with this is relatively simple: While analogs absolutley are more dangerous, and have additives increasing the addictiveness, Nicotine is still incredibly addictive. My greatest concern for anyone using NRT is that they will go back to smoking analogs if they can't get their nicotine fix from whatever nicotine delivery system they are using.

I asked this over there, not really looking for a response, and I ask again to anyone still using nicotine here (and again, feel free not to answer directly, but think about it & be honest with yourself):

If your e-cig nicotine juice were suddenly to become entirely unavailable, would you go back to smoking analogs?

We try our best to arm people who come to us with the knowledge and resources to end their dependance on nicotine entirely, because we strongly feel that any long-term continued use of nicotine runs the risk of going back to cigarettes.

What I'm not sure of, is why are you trying to change us? You say we're flaming you back (and yes, we are at times...I know I did last night), but coming into our house & trying to get us to accept "just keep using nicotine" as a viable "permament" strategy to quitting smoking is trolling just the same. Same as I would never think of coming here & stating on your forums that Cold Turkey is the only acceptable way to quit using analogs. In both cases, it would be trolling a group that you know believes differently than you for no other purpose than fanning the flames.

Our purpose isn't to help people change their nicotine delivery system, its to get people free of their addiction entirely. While I believe harm reduction is a good thing, it isn't our specific purpose...quite honestly, it is the purpose of these forums here, and that's fine. We can both be different here. And as I said last night, I would fully support something in our newbie package leading anyone who doesn't want to give up nicotine to these boards. It is what you are good at...we're good at getting people free of nicotine entirely.

I would like to apologise for the flames last night...I let anger get the better of me & quite honestly I have become jaded over the years over there of people who have effectively been nicotine-peddlers spamming our boards in the past.

Sammy

 

[ricks]

I still cant find anything about nicotine that is bad for you. Even my Dr. says nicotine is not bad.

 

[maureengill]

Sammy,

All of us here believe that each person quits smoking in a different way. I was completely afraid to tell anyone that I quit smoking this time because of the stigma attached to a "failed quit". Using my pv allowed me to cut down gradually and after over a year of vaping I finally quit smoking cigarettes completely. I'm just over 3 months without a cigarette after a 2 pack a day 25 year (since age 9) habit. I don't remember much before smoking cigarettes. The time before this that I quit I did choose cold turkey and did it for 4 months, but every day of that 4 months I would jones for a cigarette and it was torture. I decided this time that I wasn't going to pressure myself to quit....

Here we believe that everyone is different. In the last three months I've stepped down one step on the nicotine ladder and will continue to do so as long as the side effects of not having nicotine don't get bad (depression especially). If you check out the forum you'll find that there are a lot of awesome people here. Some use e-cigs, some use other things to quit....we support each other because we're all trying to quit smoking cigarettes. The way I see it...the less we stress trying to quit smoking the more likely we will be successful.

I'm glad you came over here Sammy...even though you don't use nicotine you'll find a lot of information here...if you choose to.

I wanted to quit smoking because I knew it was killing me, but never knew what it was like to not smoke. Will I use my pv forever?...I don't know....I'm taking it one step at a time.

Scary....I just realized I just hit the 4 month mark a couple days ago..

 

[Samalie0]

And honestly, kudos to everyone that has quit sucking down on cigarettes in general.

If I had to make a choice where my only options were analogs or e-cigs, I would gladly choose the e-cig. I agree entirely that it is harm reduction, and safer than smoking cigarettes.

It is just that on my home boards we strive for more than just not smoking...we strive to beat the addiction as well. And we have a great success rate, especially since around 90% of people quitting smoking fail within 6 months regardless of quit method.

You guys have a great success rate for harm reduction. Quite honestly I think both the QSMB and here are great sources of help to people either looking to beat smoking, or beat their addiction. There is no reason that we can't peacefully co-exist.

Let us both do that which we're good at

 

[Trbobitch]

I quit "cold turkey" once. I stayed quit for 7 months. I was around people who smoked and I hated it. I had no desire to pick up a nasty cigarette and I got all evangelical about how easy it was for me to quit (apparently forgetting the many days I spent sick, cranky and DYING for a smoke). My mom would always tell me "you need to start smoking again, I can't deal with you" because I was so stressed and crabby (even though I had NO desire for a cigarette). Yet, all it took was one huge bump in the road of life and what did I do? Ran to the store for a pack of smokes. If I'd had a PV at the time, that never would have happened.

 

[ShannonA]

Hi all,

Yes, I'm the same Sammy from "over there" that did get PO'd last night at this whole fight. But if I may, I'd like to respectfully state my thoughts...

I (and I believe most of us "over there") do not have a problem with anyone's quitting method, whether big-pharma antidepressants, NRT, Cold Turkey, and yes, even e-cigs. I know my personal thought is whatever gets you free is a Good Thing.

And, with all respect, we are not a bunch of angry ex-smokers desperately clinging to our no-nicotine mantra in a daily struggle to remain off of tobacco/nicotine...or at least I'm not personally. I tried quitting probably hundreds of times over the years using every single possible method (except Champex, and yes, including e-cigs) and not a bloodly thing worked for me until I was actually ready to quit...and when I was, I had very little difficulty quitting cold turkey. That was nearly 2 1/2 years ago now, and I can honestly say that I am not tempted to ingest nicotine in any form any longer.

Anyway, I digress...the bottom line is we are generally accepting of e-cig users that are working their way down to 0 nicotine. I'll be honest, I personally feel that continuing to use 0mg cartridges in an e-cig after quitting nicotine to be silly and "stupid", as it is an $$ expense for what is essentially flavored air, but to each their own. Anyone on 0mg nicotine is entirely quit, and anyone working at that goal, regardless of approved or not NRT methods, is welcome at our boards.

My issue, and I believe it is the issue of many of the other members there, are the e-cig users that are happy to be nicotine addicts, and have no desire or intention to going nicotine free. THe reason I have a problem with this is relatively simple: While analogs absolutley are more dangerous, and have additives increasing the addictiveness, Nicotine is still incredibly addictive. My greatest concern for anyone using NRT is that they will go back to smoking analogs if they can't get their nicotine fix from whatever nicotine delivery system they are using.

I asked this over there, not really looking for a response, and I ask again to anyone still using nicotine here (and again, feel free not to answer directly, but think about it & be honest with yourself):

If your e-cig nicotine juice were suddenly to become entirely unavailable, would you go back to smoking analogs?

We try our best to arm people who come to us with the knowledge and resources to end their dependance on nicotine entirely, because we strongly feel that any long-term continued use of nicotine runs the risk of going back to cigarettes.

What I'm not sure of, is why are you trying to change us? You say we're flaming you back (and yes, we are at times...I know I did last night), but coming into our house & trying to get us to accept "just keep using nicotine" as a viable "permament" strategy to quitting smoking is trolling just the same. Same as I would never think of coming here & stating on your forums that Cold Turkey is the only acceptable way to quit using analogs. In both cases, it would be trolling a group that you know believes differently than you for no other purpose than fanning the flames.

Our purpose isn't to help people change their nicotine delivery system, its to get people free of their addiction entirely. While I believe harm reduction is a good thing, it isn't our specific purpose...quite honestly, it is the purpose of these forums here, and that's fine. We can both be different here. And as I said last night, I would fully support something in our newbie package leading anyone who doesn't want to give up nicotine to these boards. It is what you are good at...we're good at getting people free of nicotine entirely.

I would like to apologise for the flames last night...I let anger get the better of me & quite honestly I have become jaded over the years over there of people who have effectively been nicotine-peddlers spamming our boards in the past.

Sammy

I was not on last night as far as not having a problem with nicotine use. First we are adults and nicotine is legal and not nearly as troublesome as many drugs we could choose to partake in. There's also research suggesting that nicotine alone is not that addictive alone... it's when it's combined with other substances found in cigarettes that it becomes highly addictive.

I can't say that is a fact but I can say that yesterday I brealy touched my pv (e cig). If was smoking regular cigarettes that would not have happened.

My thought is if you're so against nicotine which in reality is on about the same level as caffeine perhaps you should have a board that focuses on that rather than smoking in general. That aside most of the people from here that I saw on th QSMB board were planning on cutting back to zero nicotine and I believe one of them who posted on the 1st thread already had.

Regardless everyone has a right to their point of view. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing if you can do so respectfully.