FDA Blu Ecigs UK chief expects few e-cigarette sellers to survive

[Kent C]

The FDA is experiencing pressure from both sides. From Big Pharma especially, which means also ANTZ. Quietly from BT I suspect. And on the other side, from CASAA, a number of scientists, and, I'm sure alarmingly to them, an increasing scientific voices saying "Hey, guys, you're full of it so far with your studies!

Vendors should be running scared to the point of organizing, joining SFATA, contacting the Small Business administration, and letting their customers know that CASAA needs members and needs people to read up on what the FDA regs would REALLY do so that they don't comment "good, I want that" when what they really would want is REASONABLE regulation, which is not really what is proposed at this point in time.

Any other scared behavior, especially if it is enough to chase you away to another vendor, has me going "Huh??? WTH?" What is this guy doing? Hiding under the cash register?

This (bold) is so right. They even admit it in the deeming doc about the fact that it was 'one carto' in the 2009 "study" as if it was an 'outlier'. The 'formaldehyde' "studies" where there is no constant readings from furniture, carpet and the fact that they used smokers, whose lungs retain it, then are measured after vaping

The 'reports' by Prue Talbot after reading our "health threads" and reporting all the posts of people complaining about certain issues - phlegm, coughing, etc. when anyone with an ounce of sense knows that many of those are symptoms of stopping smoking. You could get similar 'maladies' by "reporting" the withdrawal symptoms of alcoholics or drug addicts. But to assign those symptoms to that which is being used to break the habit is ludicrous.

If it were true that the 'nicotine in the second hand vapor' permeates all furniture and carpets and can poison simply by skin contact, then all of our pets and small children would be seriously ill or dead. Who believes this? Other than the media? and the ANTZ??

Yet that is the type of 'scientific studies' that the FDA is reporting in the deeming doc.

 

[Stosh]

Some vendors have stepped up to the plate, including CASAA info and alerts in their newsletters. (at least the smart one have).

In fact The NicVape Team have sent out separate emails with the CASAA links and instructions, with verbiage indicating how important this is to the future of vaping. And the emails DIDN'T include any sales information, or discount codes, just the facts ma'am.

(They do send sales information, and discount codes in separate newsletters...)

 

[Fulgurant]

Those are always lesser charges tacked on in order to help the prosecution...

???

The entire point of that article is that various authorities use civil forfeiture to line their own pockets -- often without charging anyone with a crime at all. In fact, sometimes prosecutors explicitly agree to drop any and all criminal charges if the so-called suspect signs a waiver on the property confiscation.

It's a deeply disturbing trend, particularly in light of our slow-but-steady economic decline. The incentive for cash-strapped municipalities to abuse civil forfeiture grows by the day. Here are a couple more takes on the subject, though I doubt you'll read them:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-heavy-hand-of-the-irs/2014/04/30/7a56ca9e-cfc5-11e3-a6b1-45c4dffb85a6_story.html

Sarah Stillman: The Use and Abuse of Civil Forfeiture : The New Yorker

 

[stevegmu]

???

The entire point of that article is that various authorities use civil forfeiture to line their own pockets -- often without charging anyone with a crime at all. In fact, sometimes prosecutors explicitly agree to drop any and all criminal charges if the so-called suspect signs a waiver on the property confiscation.

It's a deeply disturbing trend, particularly in light of our slow-but-steady economic decline. The incentive for cash-strapped municipalities to abuse civil forfeiture (a power originally intended to allow for the immediate confiscation of property stolen or illegitimately acquired by obvious, hardened criminals like mobsters) grows by the day. Here are a couple more takes on the subject, though I doubt you'll read them:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/george-f-will-the-heavy-hand-of-the-irs/2014/04/30/7a56ca9e-cfc5-11e3-a6b1-45c4dffb85a6_story.html

Sarah Stillman: The Use and Abuse of Civil Forfeiture : The New Yorker

My reply was in response to paraphernalia charges... They are lesser and included charges which help the prosecution...

 

[Fulgurant]

My reply was in response to paraphernalia charges... They are lesser and included charges which help the prosecution...

Yes, usually. Ideally.

But Stosh's point, to which you responded, is that cops can use paraphernalia (a hopelessly broad category of items, of which ecig hardware may become a part) to screw you to the wall even if there's no evidence of wrongdoing otherwise.

And you, characteristically, brushed off his legitimate concern with a knee-jerk, authoritarian-flavored Just World hypothesis.

 

[stevegmu]

Yes, usually. Ideally.

But Stosh's point, to which you responded, is that cops can use paraphernalia (a hopelessly broad category of items, of which ecig hardware may become a part) to screw you to the wall even if there's no evidence of wrongdoing otherwise.

And you, characteristically, brushed off his legitimate concern with a knee-jerk, authoritarian-flavored Just World hypothesis.

I guess anything is possible... I did graduate from law school, so what do I know about how the legal system works...

 

[Fulgurant]

I guess anything is possible... I did graduate from law school, so what do I know about how the legal system works...

It isn't just possible; it's happening. I realize that denying reality is an important skill for lawyers, but your degree is irrelevant for the purpose of this conversation. You never made an assertion that requires legal expertise; you made an assertion about how authorities customarily use a particular charge, and I didn't disagree with your assertion. What I disagree with is the obvious implication of your musings on the topic -- that paraphernalia classifications aren't a concern.

In fact, paraphernalia classification is an enormous concern, because the most common excuse for civil-forfeiture confiscations is the suspicion of drug trafficking. You get pulled over; the cop pretends to smell something; cop finds paraphernalia in your car; cop can now assume that your property is the product of illegal activity, and thus confiscate it, even without charging you with a crime.

That scenario surely isn't constitutional, but it happens.

Granted, if you're stopped by cops that are as corrupt (or who work for as corrupt a municipality) as those described in the previously linked articles, then you're probably screwed regardless. And granted, civil forfeiture isn't directly related to the ecig issue. But if ecig hardware were to be classified as paraphernalia, we'd have to worry about all sorts of extra hassle. It's not that I'm really seriously concerned about getting thrown in jail or having my car confiscated simply because a cop saw me using an ecig; the question is whether I should have to feel insecure about using or carrying my ecig in public. Or, hell, maybe even in private -- if I answer the door with my REO in hand, does a cop on my doorstep have an excuse to insist upon searching my house?

I would think that as a lawyer you would have an uncommon appreciation for the enormous injustices that large institutions can inflict upon the individual.

 

[stevegmu]

My response was to post #33, not post #35... Paraphernalia classifications aren't a concern as pertaining to vape gear. I am not an attorney; I just went to and graduated from law school.

 

[Kent C]

My response was to post #33, not post #35... Paraphernalia classifications aren't a concern as pertaining to vape gear. I am not an attorney; I just went to and graduated from law school.

I posted #33 and I was just giving what could be an analogous scenario, if the FDA bans/not allows to be sold, various accessories. And where those accessories could be considered vaping paraphernalia after the final rule. Not saying they would be, just that similar thinking in the 'other area' wasn't always 'safe' for some. And I acknowledge that it is most likely that in order to enforce that, other charges were likely involved, as you point out.

However, I'm familiar with what fulgurant speaks regarding asset forfeiture. We had a clerk where I worked that ran 'football tickets' (illegal gambling small time) and he used his dad's car to deliver payouts. He was arrested and the car was seized and despite the fact that his father had no interest nor no knowledge of the son's deal, the father had to go through the proper hoops to get his car back - which took about a year and eight months.

 

[stevegmu]

I am surprised he got the car back at all. Unless stolen and reported stolen prior to the arrest and subsequent seizure, it doesn't matter that the father had no knowledge the vehicle was being used in commission of a crime. I bet he spent a good amount of money getting the car back. Storage fees alone for 20 months...

 

[Kent C]

I am surprised he got the car back at all. Unless stolen and reported stolen prior to the arrest and subsequent seizure, it doesn't matter that the father had no knowledge the vehicle was being used in commission of a crime. I bet he spent a good amount of money getting the car back. Storage fees alone for 20 months...

I know he had to pay storage and a lawyer Don't know how much though.