Can Innovation Halt the Doom and Gloom of E-Cig Sales?

[Ardo]

Can Innovation Halt the Doom and Gloom of E-Cig Sales?

It's a good informational read, but I don't understand the headline choice. The article is pretty clear about vaping world problems and solutions. And most importantly that the solutions already exist. It's 2nd and 3d generation vape products, quality product choice, education. Everything that vape shops provide.

“While it’s (c-store channel cigalikes sales) decelerating, I don’t think it’s as bad as something like the Nielsen numbers would suggest. Nielsen’s not capturing what’s happening in vape.”

“While the innovation is good, it needs to continue to evolve and improve. And improve it has. Though much of the innovation has taken place in vape shops."


So there you have it

 

[Vaslovik]

If cigalike sales are declining it's because the products being offered are inferior and new vapers are finding better ways. I started with a cigalike, and dumped it in very short order. The cigalike market is hardly any valid measure of the ecig market as it ignores open system vaping, which is FAR superior to any cigalike.

 

[Rossum]

One of the best things about vaping is that it keeps me out of c-stores.

 

[Ardo]

haha

 

[sofarsogood]

Can Innovation Halt the Doom and Gloom of E-Cig Sales?

It's a good informational read, but I don't understand the headline choice. The article is pretty clear about vaping world problems and solutions. And most importantly that the solutions already exist. It's 2nd and 3d generation vape products, quality product choice, education. Everything that vape shops provide.

“While it’s (c-store channel cigalikes sales) decelerating, I don’t think it’s as bad as something like the Nielsen numbers would suggest. Nielsen’s not capturing what’s happening in vape.”

“While the innovation is good, it needs to continue to evolve and improve. And improve it has. Though much of the innovation has taken place in vape shops."


So there you have it

Where I live there is a chain of tobacco stores, wild bill's may be. I'm too lazy to check the name. I've been in two different ones to check their vaping stuff and buy a couple of things. What I saw in my last visit a couple weeks ago was a reasonable selection of familar mods and tanks, comparable to the local vape shops but not the most powerful devices and they were mixing house liquid. I also had the impression they were doing a brisk business in vaping stuff. The clerks seems totally cool about vaping and not concerned it might be cutting into their tobacco business. May be c stores are fine for cigarettes but not ideal for selling ecig products at the present level of technology and customer awareness. My impression was a high percentage of customers were dual users and have just added ecigs to what they buy at the store.

 

[Ardo]

According to a survey in the UK, 60% of vapers are dual users. So I guess your observations confirm that. And it's okay. Dual users have taken the first step to making the switch. Hopefully most of them will follow through at some point

 

[edyle]

Can Innovation Halt the Doom and Gloom of E-Cig Sales?

It's a good informational read, but I don't understand the headline choice. The article is pretty clear about vaping world problems and solutions. And most importantly that the solutions already exist. It's 2nd and 3d generation vape products, quality product choice, education. Everything that vape shops provide.

“While it’s (c-store channel cigalikes sales) decelerating, I don’t think it’s as bad as something like the Nielsen numbers would suggest. Nielsen’s not capturing what’s happening in vape.”

“While the innovation is good, it needs to continue to evolve and improve. And improve it has. Though much of the innovation has taken place in vape shops."


So there you have it

The site is
"Convenience Store and Fuel News"

 

[OldBatty]

Pretty sure none of the large chains sell 2nd or 3rd generation devices but if an independent did, would they count towards those statistics? Rarely go in independents but some of them sell 'things' which obviously have an alternate supply chain.

Also truck stops, was in a Pilot about a year ago and noticed they had small display of advanced vape gear.

 

[DC2]

One of the best things about vaping is that it keeps me out of c-stores.

I'm having a hard time remembering the last time I was in a convenience store.

I'm also having a hard time remembering the last time I bought a Snickers bar.
Or a bag of Fritos.

I seriously doubt this is coincidence.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

The big problem I see with the halt on innovation is a one of the more recent studies I read on formaldehyde, devices that had lower rates of wicking like CE4's and Cigalikes were more prone to dry hits which produce formaldehyde, devices usually in the sub-ohm range (not that the actual ohm of the coil matters) generally have superior wicking and are better at preventing dry hits.

The halt on innovation will actually increase the risks associated with vaping, I don't know if it's because they don't understand the technology or they just don't care about the public's health, generally my assumption is they just want to lower cloud size and this would effectively do that but at the cost of lowering both the effectiveness of vapes and increasing the risks associated with vaping.

It's a lose lose situation for vapers and the health community.

According to a survey in the UK, 60% of vapers are dual users. So I guess your observations confirm that. And it's okay. Dual users have taken the first step to making the switch. Hopefully most of them will follow through at some point

as long as they are lowering the amount of cigarettes they are smoking it doesn't matter if people dual use as they are still reducing the harm associated with smoking.

 

[Ardo]

Which is why it's important to get smokers try advanced vape products instead of entry level stuff that doesn't work in any way necessary

The big problem I see with the halt on innovation is a one of the more recent studies I read on formaldehyde, devices that had lower rates of wicking like CE4's and Cigalikes were more prone to dry hits which produce formaldehyde, devices usually in the sub-ohm range (not that the actual ohm of the coil matters) generally have superior wicking and are better at preventing dry hits.

The halt on innovation will actually increase the risks associated with vaping, I don't know if it's because they don't understand the technology or they just don't care about the public's health, generally my assumption is they just want to lower cloud size and this would effectively do that but at the cost of lowering both the effectiveness of vapes and increasing the risks associated with vaping.

It's a lose lose situation for vapers and the health community.



as long as they are lowering the amount of cigarettes they are smoking it doesn't matter if people dual use as they are still reducing the harm associated with smoking.

 

[skoony]

The big problem I see with the halt on innovation is a one of the more recent studies I read on formaldehyde, devices that had lower rates of wicking like CE4's and Cigalikes were more prone to dry hits which produce formaldehyde, devices usually in the sub-ohm range (not that the actual ohm of the coil matters) generally have superior wicking and are better at preventing dry hits.

The studies showed when you crank up the voltage on a device not made
to have variable voltage it overheats the device and the juice to cause
a breakdown in the composition that emits formaldehyde.
When these devices are used as intended you get zero breakdown and
no formaldehyde.
With sub-ohm devices wicking,amount of juice and, coil resistance are critical if using
an unregulated mod. Any discrepancies between the three results in dry hits.
I am not saying you can't get a dry hit from any device. Under actual operation using
recommended settings dry hits are more common and also expected using an unregulated
mod than any other type device. Unless of course you run the juice dry than any device
will dry hit.
Also note the study you refer too did not use sub-ohm equipment.

Regards
Mike

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

Also note the study you refer too did not use sub-ohm equipment.

Probably thinking of the older study, I was referring to this one.

Effect of variable power levels on the yield of total aerosol mass and formation of aldehydes in e-cigarette aerosols

Device 1 is a CE4
Device 5 is a Kanger Subtank

The subtank showed lower amounts of Adelhydes/formaldehyde than all other devices.

 

[skoony]

@Asylumsix This study confirms what I said. When you run a ce4 out of spec you get
formaldehyde. A ce4 should run in the range of 3.9 to 4.3 watts using a 2,5 ohm coil.
2.5 ohms was at one time a pretty standard coil. It appears by the chart they were using
a resistance of 2 to 2.1 ohms to fall into the power range shown.
The study using a CE5 showed no formaldehyde when operated at the appropriate
power level. Your average unregulated mod with a .2 ohm coil will produce 68.5
watts of power. Almost 2/3rds more than described in the study you showed.
There is no doubt that wicking,juice flow and coil become critical. It is also
well known to those that read these forums the more power applied the more
dry hits one would expect normally. I believe 2.4 to 2.5 ohms were the standard
CE4's and CE5's were based on. Lowering the resistance of the coil came along
after. This was before the formaldehyde studies though so no importance was attached
to it other than increasing vapor production.
It all boils down to power. The more power the more over all increase in vapor production.
An increase in vapor production makes the flow of juice more important overall. An
interruption in juice flow for whatever reason causes dry hitting. You can have plenty
of juice but not have the proper flow of juice. You can over power any device until
you get to the point of crating dry hits. This were power becomes critical. You do not
want to tax an unregulated mod to the point your battery stresses out and vents.

Regards
Mike
Please note the bottom fed coils showed outstanding performance.
Try the same with all top fed and see what happens.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

@Asylumsix This study confirms what I said. When you run a ce4 out of spec you get
formaldehyde. A ce4 should run in the range of 3.9 to 4.3 watts using a 2,5 ohm coil.
2.5 ohms was at one time a pretty standard coil. It appears by the chart they were using
a resistance of 2 to 2.1 ohms to fall into the power range shown.
The study using a CE5 showed no formaldehyde when operated at the appropriate
power level. Your average unregulated mod with a .2 ohm coil will produce 68.5
watts of power. Almost 2/3rds more than described in the study you showed.
There is no doubt that wicking,juice flow and coil become critical. It is also
well known to those that read these forums the more power applied the more
dry hits one would expect normally. I believe 2.4 to 2.5 ohms were the standard
CE4's and CE5's were based on. Lowering the resistance of the coil came along
after. This was before the formaldehyde studies though so no importance was attached
to it other than increasing vapor production.
It all boils down to power. The more power the more over all increase in vapor production.
An increase in vapor production makes the flow of juice more important overall. An
interruption in juice flow for whatever reason causes dry hitting. You can have plenty
of juice but not have the proper flow of juice. You can over power any device until
you get to the point of crating dry hits. This were power becomes critical. You do not
want to tax an unregulated mod to the point your battery stresses out and vents.

Regards
Mike
Please note the bottom fed coils showed outstanding performance.
Try the same with all top fed and see what happens.

well it's pretty damn obvious if you run anything over the suggested power it will cause problems, whether it's a motor or a coil doesn't matter but that doesn't mean people don't do it, they are real world scenarios, a standard ego battery will have anywhere from 3.7 to 4.2 volts and with a 2.5ohm coils thats 5 to 7 watts which is above what you recommended and included in the tests range of power, with vv devices the other powers are possible and I'm sure have been used.

 

[skoony]

well it's pretty damn obvious if you run anything over the suggested power it will cause problems, whether it's a motor or a coil doesn't matter but that doesn't mean people don't do it, they are real world scenarios, a standard ego battery will have anywhere from 3.7 to 4.2 volts and with a 2.5ohm coils thats 5 to 7 watts which is above what you recommended and included in the tests range of power, with vv devices the other powers are possible and I'm sure have been used.

The other study pushed the voltage above 4.2 volts to produce formaldehyde on the CE5.
Your chart shows only one top fed device. Bottom fed (or gravity fed) allows for better flow
of juice which in turn allows for better vaporization and less formaldehyde to be produced as
restricting flow is one of the things that will produce a dry hit condition. Further why is
it measured in mg per g. It should be converted to ppm or ppb to volume of vapor as we
are not dealing with a solid?
At any rate your chart doesn't prove your point. 2.1 mg per g translates to 2100
ppb which is 262500 times the recommended exposure rate to formaldehyde.
There is .8 to 8 ppb of formaldehyde found naturally in human breath. The recommended
exposure rate is .008 ppb. Ooops,It looks like we all goin' to die.
If wicking,juice flow and power application are properly adjusted there should be no formaldehyde.

Regards
Mike

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

If wicking,juice flow and power application are properly adjusted there should be no formaldehyde.

and that is exactly why I use temperature control since I can set it at a level below where anything toxicants can be formed pretty much completely removing the possibility of dry hits.

 

[skoony]

and that is exactly why I use temperature control since I can set it at a level below where anything toxicants can be formed pretty much completely removing the possibility of dry hits.

Which is the prudent thing to do IMHO.

mike

 

[Racehorse]

Which is why it's important to get smokers try advanced vape products instead of entry level stuff that doesn't work in any way necessary

thousands of people, just like me, quit smoking using a simple device like a joyetech ego VV back in 2012 and before, when those were the only things available.

I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden, it is impossible to quit smoking using entry level stuff, unless the human biology has drastically changed in 3-4 years.

Just sayin'.......

Yes, there are many and better options now, but blaming entry level devices on inability to quit smoking is a very simplistic explanation, and one which doesn't really bear out.

At any rate, it is well known that the ecig business is somewhat over saturated ... and has been for the last year or so. There are some towns and cities where there seems to be a vape store on every corner. Then, the elquid biz is even worse.....more competition means less piece of the pie. I know a few eliquid people who are going to quit soon because of this. They just aren't getting the numbers....back in 2012 it was different than now.

 

[nicnik]

thousands of people, just like me, quit smoking using a simple device like a joyetech ego VV back in 2012 and before, when those were the only things available.

I quit using cig-a-likes and added egos a year later, but still use cig-a-likes, too.