Case report brings the dangers of PG to light for some.

[dc2k08]

Doctors discover the potential toxicity of propylene glycol while treating a patient with kidney problems.

PG really does not suit everybody. Bit of a stiff read but you can skip to the discussion part, basically all it says is a patient was getting treatment for kidney problems and was being given medicines that contained PG, well these really messed him up a lot more and the docs had not realised before that PG might do this. That's what i think it says anyway. it's difficult to read the clinical jargon.

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/cgi/reprint/94/6/1583.pdf

 

[Di]

if I read this right
* this paper does say that kidneys clean propyl glycol from the system,
* the patients kidneys were not working,
* the dosage of propyl glycol was massive,

****
At the time of the maximal infusion of lorazepam,
our patient received propylene glycol at a rate
of approximately 9 g/h (830 mg propylene glycol and
2 mg lorazepam per mL, at 11 mL/h),
with an estimated cumulative dose of 108 g/m​

​

2 per day.​

*****
I hope no-one is vaping that much !!!!!!!

Di ....

 

[dc2k08]

from my perspective, it says that the dosage was not massive, it was just used a means to administer the medicine and also that the patient did not respond well to PG. but i'm hopin someone with a better grasp at doc speak can have a gander.

 

[Schroedinger's cat]

But he was getting a dose that was way higher than what any vaper would get, ad DI said. In fact, the authors end the paper suggesting that the possibility of toxicity is considered when patients require rapid rates of continuous infusions of drugs containing PG. I would not worry about this. However, I am not a doctor (but I am an epidemiologist, and I read clinical papers now and then)....

 

[jimldk]

Hi Guys...Medical point of view.....

Infused intravenously PG will be very different from what we are currently doing...Put your fears to rest...as far as we are concerned we are not IV mainliner for PG ...we inhaled but we do not mainline it to our blood system..and that dose is way beyond our normal PG usage...I would be dead too if I IV myself that much daily...and of course with a renal/kidney disease, what more to burden your waste methodology of removal system..thru sweat..no way.....

so If you are a healthy(non renal diseases )individual then you have no fears or worry ....PG have shown it's bad side as well as it's good side but so does everything else like sugar and salt...and of course for those unfortunates ones..allergy to PG won't bode them well....so take this with a pinch of salt(no pun intended)....

 

[dc2k08]

that's good to know doc, thanks for the tell. i had thought that this patient was allergic to PG and this was why it effected him badly. so if someone does have kidney problems, it might be better for them not to vape though right ? because even inhaling it through the lungs, it is going to wind up in the kidneys via the blood stream ?

 

[jimldk]

that's good to know doc, thanks for the tell. i had thought that this patient was allergic to PG and this was why it effected him badly. so if someone does have kidney problems, it might be better for them not to vape though right ? because even inhaling it through the lungs, it is going to wind up in the kidneys via the blood stream ?

You are welcome DC...our vaping amount of PG won't put a toll on our renal system...proof by urine analysis and Kidney function test shows no anomalies so far..I got even a patient with only one kidney vaping without a single problems...he is a Kidney cancer patient with total removal of one kidney done last year...and also a few Chronic Renal Failure patient on e-smoking with no apparent problems...so vapers should not have the toxicity danger as much as intravenously patient...

 

[Kimmiegrif]

thanks doc...I am always searching this forum for health info.

 

[jimldk]

thanks doc...I am always searching this forum for health info.

You are welcome Kimmie....and I also learn from all of you too...As far as I know , there is a lot of uncertainty over VG and PG..new route of administration is the cause of all this concern..some new territory unexplored but has been well utilised by the Big Tobacco company for a long time.....still we will have to wait and see what will really happens..and that's the reason why my MOH insist on minimum of 6 years study on this subject alone..sigh....a long time ....not easy but will have to be done...

 

[mothakaf]

You are welcome Kimmie....and I also learn from all of you too...As far as I know , there is a lot of uncertainty over VG and PG..new route of administration is the cause of all this concern..some new territory unexplored but has been well utilised by the Big Tobacco company for a long time.....still we will have to wait and see what will really happens..and that's the reason why my MOH insist on minimum of 6 years study on this subject alone..sigh....a long time ....not easy but will have to be done...

Is that right that JC juice contain glycerin with no PG?

 

[mothakaf]

thanks doc...I am always searching this forum for health info.

Is that right that JC juice contain glycerin with no PG?

 

[satake]

I don't know if PG is the sole offender is this case. This patient had donor kidneys so he was probably on a ton of anti rejection drugs, his labwork shows impaired kidney function which may or may not have been 100% related to the PG OVERDOSE. I think this is more of case of overload, the person already had transplant kidneys and multiple drugs in his system, a healthy kidney can only deal with so many things before it becomes impaired and with a donor kidney that's being bombarded by a large number of drugs it's going to happen that much faster.
I think the volumes that we're getting from vaping are also just small fractions of what this person was getting. To quote the article

Furthermore, based upon extrapolation
from animal data, Morshed et al. (9) predicted a
metabolic capacity of more than 1 g/day for a 70-kg
human. At the time of the maximal infusion of lorazepam,
our patient received propylene glycol at a rate
of approximately 9 g/h (830 mg propylene glycol and
2 mg lorazepam per mL, at 11 mL/h), with an estimated
cumulative dose of 108 g/m2 per day.

So this is over 100x the safe dose. If you have healthy kidneys and no history of liver problems(hep C, cirrhosis etc.) I wouldn't worry too much. It did say something about PG breaking down into to acetone, and I wonder if that would impact diabetics more than the rest of us.

 

[Kate]

Does that mean that 1 gram of pg per day is the maximum advised dose?

1 gram = around 1ml and most of us use more than that.

 

[satake]

Does that mean that 1 gram of pg per day is the maximum advised dose?

1 gram = around 1ml and most of us use more than that.

I'm pretty sure that's with IV as the route. I'm not sure about the pharmacology of PG, but I know with insulin studies they gave 10x the dose of insulin for inhalation vs IV. Maybe the good doctor will weigh in on this one, since in the world of western medicine I'm about 3 steps above janitor.