RDA Characteristics of "flavor" attys

[Mad Scientist]

Been thinking about a lot of the talk about the quality of flavor a particular atty provides. So let's talk about what is it that produces better flavor. Not subjective reviews of attys like audiophiles talking about the better sound their power cords provide or marketing hype about rifled drip tips but the very characteristics the help to produce good flavor.

Here's what I got so far --

#1 is a wet wick. Luckily on RDAs, this isn't much of an issue.

#2 the build and power used with that build. Likely the most important factor and seldom discussed. An overpowerd or underpowered build produces a flavorless vape. A crappy build overstuffed with so much cotton or with giant ridiculous coils or poorly positioned coils so that there is no airflow around the coil produces a flavorless vape. It's not always the atty.

#2 ratio of air that flows directly over/around the wick to air that is indirect just near or even completely away from the wick. The more indirect air, the more dilute the flavor. This seems to include a few different attributes: ability to position the wick to the airholes and airholes designed to maximize direct and minimize indirect airflow; reasonable chamber volume (which is initially filled with essentially flavorless air that must be displaced by vapor at the start of each vape -- as long as interior volume isn't ridiculous, shouldn't make much difference); no indirect sources of airflow.

#3 some condensation of vapor -- this one has me scratching my head and maybe skeptical but I'm including it anyway. Vapor alone doesn't seem to have much flavor. But some vapor condenses instantly as soon as it hits the mouth so atty design here shouldn't really have any large perceptible difference. Might have to think on this more.

I am really, really tired of folks talking about the flavor produced by an atty and chasing the next fad with no objective or reasoned discussion of why one performs better than another and no objective data to back any of it. When we reach the point of drip tips with interior rifled lands and grooves in their entire less than half inch length or swirled chambers within their entire two or three cc volume we have lost our minds.

We know how people perceive taste (receptors in sinus cavity and on tongue) and we know how to stimulate those receptors. While there may be subjective factors when we approach subtle differences, there is clearly a vast wasteland of complete folklore with no science or objectivity behind it. For those of like minds, what say you? Can we start to catalog what is needed and what is not to come up with objective factors based on reason as to what makes a great flavor RDA.

Anyone wanting to post why this can't be done because taste is subjective, etc., please don't. What something tastes like or what flavors are favored is subjective. Stronger versus weaker flavor is far less subjective.

 

[jhhollier]

I think you bring up some good points and I wish that I better understood the science behind it so I could be a better participant in a discussion. The common wisdom is that reduced chamber = better flavor. Is that scientifically true? No idea, but I do find that the attys I have with reduced chambers tend to produce better flavor. Sometimes, as with the Derringer, I suspect that our mouths are so close to the chamber we are getting a lot of actual juice spattered into our mouths and perceiving that as the atty producing excellent flavor. The Tugboat V2 with the stock top cap has what I'd call good but not great flavor production. Use the Slammed Cap and reduce the chamber and for me the flavor just pops. In that case, though, I don't think it's juice hitting the tongue as I get very, very little spitback if any. *shrug*

Then there's the notion of tighter airflow = better flavor which I somewhat disagree with. I find at times that really tight airflow gives me a much warmer vape but not necessarily stronger flavor. I "taste" heat more than anything if that makes sense. With some attys, tighter airflow does seem to intensify the flavor. No rhyme or reason to it but again I don't really understand the science behind it.

It would be extremely helpful to us flavor chasers if certain design elements of attys could be pinpointed as the cause of flavor being strengthened or weakened.

 

[Mad Scientist]

I think you bring up some good points and I wish that I better understood the science behind it so I could be a better participant in a discussion. The common wisdom is that reduced chamber = better flavor. Is that scientifically true? No idea, but I do find that the attys I have with reduced chambers tend to produce better flavor. Sometimes, as with the Derringer, I suspect that our mouths are so close to the chamber we are getting a lot of actual juice spattered into our mouths and perceiving that as the atty producing excellent flavor. The Tugboat V2 with the stock top cap has what I'd call good but not great flavor production. Use the Slammed Cap and reduce the chamber and for me the flavor just pops. In that case, though, I don't think it's juice hitting the tongue as I get very, very little spitback if any. *shrug*

Then there's the notion of tighter airflow = better flavor which I somewhat disagree with. I find at times that really tight airflow gives me a much warmer vape but not necessarily stronger flavor. I "taste" heat more than anything if that makes sense. With some attys, tighter airflow does seem to intensify the flavor. No rhyme or reason to it but again I don't really understand the science behind it.

It would be extremely helpful to us flavor chasers if certain design elements of attys could be pinpointed as the cause of flavor being strengthened or weakened.

I'm certainly no expert but I want to start the dialogue. I really appreciate your post and I think it hits on some of the thoughts I've had too. Let's start with reduced chamber delivers better flavor. I have a derringer clone so I know exactly what you're talking about. But what I'm wondering is if it's not so much the reduced chamber as the directed airflow in relation to the coils which is a result of its small chamber. I don't think it's direct juice spitting -- very undesirable lol. The juice does condense though and it has a taste and smell.

For tighter airflow, that makes sense because there's less air in proportion to vape steam and aerosol in the vape. So I think you've raised another characteristic we need -- high ratio of steam / aerosol to air.

 

[CasketWeaver]

The underpowered / overpowered piss poor build is a problem. A big one. As far as flavor is concerned and builds are concerned - micro coils or spaced? Higher power or higher voltage? Cotton / Japanese Cotton / Rayon? All of this has to be applied in order for the build part to make sense. In which many of it becomes subjective. However, good point in bringing it up. Because a lot of people insist that higher resistance builds produce amazing flavor. I believe that some juices just do better under higher heat. A lot of people believe Japanese cotton to be the best wick out there. I feel rayon produces a cleaner flavor and throat hit. Same with spaced coils. I feel spaced coils produce a better flavor as the juice and vapor has a lot more room to escape and build in the chamber. Reduced chamber and airflow make it that much better. Too much wick chokes airflow and runs chances of heat building in one area and burning. Not enough wick = no juice to that part of the coil resulting in hot spotting / burnt metal taste. Do I believe in hype that a rifled drip tip is what helps produce flavor? No. A rifled drip tip may help dissipate heat a bit better, but only at lengths exceeding the average drip tip size. As far as all the other crazy .... we've seen - what I'd like to see is a spitless drip tip design that works on an atty that has air come in from the side, condense in a sub chamber, and through the drip tip into ones mouth. Maybe that would help with flavor? Not necessarily having a reduced chamber right above the build area, but a second chamber dedicated for vapor by itself above the build area. Uh oh... I has an idea to make BILLIONS... need to get some steel, PEEK, CNC, 3D printer, and a few people to cut to spec...

 

[Tom Forde]

I've had ideas for atty's for a while now. I'm down to make billions!
But as for flavor, there are some atty's I just can't get the flavor I want out of it no matter what the afc is set to eg; doge. I know how to wick my coils and align them with the afc and more importantly: how to build flavorful coils that will hold more juice than a single strand of kanthal, nichrome, nickel, whatever. Reduced chamber doesn't necessarily mean better flavor. I feel it's where the air is coming from in conjunction to where the coil is. Say we're talking about a bottom afc atty like a Kennedy or freakshow. If you place your coils directly over the afc, the air runs the vapor straight up to your drip tip. Top airflow atty's reverse the principle and have a similar effect, but, depending on how close the afc is to the coils the flavor will vary.
So let's say the build & wicking is correctly done with whatever material you prefer. And for arguments sake, let's go back to the derringer atty since a ton of us seem to have either it or a clone. The design of it places the afc directly next to the coils, forcing the air to directly hit the coils on an inhale. That will definitely lead to better flavor. The reduced chamber design shortens the distance the vapor has to travel before hitting your lips.

All in all, with a properly wicked and wired set up, I think it's about the air directly aimed at the coils and traveling to your taste buds. This is why I like the new Pugio atty by Hyon USA, it has bottom airflow that you can rotate to position directly underneath your coils and a short distance the vapor has to travel to hit your taste buds.
As long as the air being sucked in through the afc is directly passing your coils, I think the flavor is going to be better.
Edit: I said directly way too much lol. But it is the correct word and I don't have a thesaurus on hand.

 

[Two_Bears]

I think you bring up some good points and I wish that I better understood the science behind it so I could be a better participant in a discussion. The common wisdom is that reduced chamber = better flavor. Is that scientifically true? No idea, but I do find that the attys I have with reduced chambers tend to produce better flavor. Sometimes, as with the Derringer, I suspect that our mouths are so close to the chamber we are getting a lot of actual juice spattered into our mouths and perceiving that as the atty producing excellent flavor. The Tugboat V2 with the stock top cap has what I'd call good but not great flavor production. Use the Slammed Cap and reduce the chamber and for me the flavor just pops. In that case, though, I don't think it's juice hitting the tongue as I get very, very little spitback if any. *shrug*

Then there's the notion of tighter airflow = better flavor which I somewhat disagree with. I find at times that really tight airflow gives me a much warmer vape but not necessarily stronger flavor. I "taste" heat more than anything if that makes sense. With some attys, tighter airflow does seem to intensify the flavor. No rhyme or reason to it but again I don't really understand the science behind it.

It would be extremely helpful to us flavor chasers if certain design elements of attys could be pinpointed as the cause of flavor being strengthened or weakened.

I also find short attys present better flavor than taller attys or tanks.

I am rocking on an 18 mm Rogue. The Rogue has top air flow so the air cones down on the sides so you need the coil(s) under the airflow if the coils are out near the wall I never get spit back. If the coils are near the post it spits back like crazy.

 

[Two_Bears]

I've had ideas for atty's for a while now. I'm down to make billions!
But as for flavor, there are some atty's I just can't get the flavor I want out of it no matter what the afc is set to eg; doge. I know how to wick my coils and align them with the afc and more importantly: how to build flavorful coils that will hold more juice than a single strand of kanthal, nichrome, nickel, whatever. Reduced chamber doesn't necessarily mean better flavor. I feel it's where the air is coming from in conjunction to where the coil is. Say we're talking about a bottom afc atty like a Kennedy or freakshow. If you place your coils directly over the afc, the air runs the vapor straight up to your drip tip. Top airflow atty's reverse the principle and have a similar effect, but, depending on how close the afc is to the coils the flavor will vary.
So let's say the build & wicking is correctly done with whatever material you prefer. And for arguments sake, let's go back to the derringer atty since a ton of us seem to have either it or a clone. The design of it places the afc directly next to the coils, forcing the air to directly hit the coils on an inhale. That will definitely lead to better flavor. The reduced chamber design shortens the distance the vapor has to travel before hitting your lips.

All in all, with a properly wicked and wired set up, I think it's about the air directly aimed at the coils and traveling to your taste buds. This is why I like the new Pugio atty by Hyon USA, it has bottom airflow that you can rotate to position directly underneath your coils and a short distance the vapor has to travel to hit your taste buds.
As long as the air being sucked in through the afc is directly passing your coils, I think the flavor is going to be better.
Edit: I said directly way too much lol. But it is the correct word and I don't have a thesaurus on hand.

A shorter atty puts the same vapor in a reduced space and that gives you a warmer denser vape that is more flavorful.

 

[Mad Scientist]

A shorter atty puts the same vapor in a reduced space and that gives you a warmer denser vape that is more flavorful.

I see what you're saying but I'm wondering if the short atty really is more effective to direct the airflow around the coils, as opposed to the more chaotic flow in a larger (relatively) volume which allows for more indirect air to end up in the vape. I say that because a typically short atty is only a few cc in volume and a taller atty only a few cc more. So it's hard to see that a few cc one way or the other (compared to lung volume of an inhale) would make any perceptible difference unless it's more of the effect on airflow than as a result of the volume alone.

 

[Two_Bears]

I see what you're saying but I'm wondering if the short atty really is more effective to direct the airflow around the coils, as opposed to the more chaotic flow in a larger (relatively) volume which allows for more indirect air to end up in the vape. I say that because a typically short atty is only a few cc in volume and a taller atty only a few cc more. So it's hard to see that a few cc one way or the other (compared to lung volume of an inhale) would make any perceptible difference unless it's more of the effect on airflow than as a result of the volume alone.

Let's go through this.

Two identical coils at the identical wattage will produce the identical amount of vapor, right?

Now if the atty is smaller in volume the parts of vapor to parts of air will be higher. Right.

When you inhale the blend of vapor to air will be richer than in a larger atty. Right?.

Atty builders build mini attys because they sell and a lot of the eCig users want better flavor.

To me a mini atty tastes better and that is good enough for me.

There are two ways to restrict the volume in an atty. Make the atty smaller in diameter. 22 mm is the standard diameter for mech mods and the width of box mods. A smaller diameter atty would look strange. The other option is to reduce the height with the mini atty's and that is the direction they went.

 

[DaveSignal]

I can get great flavor with nearly any RDA. The key is using an RDA. I build it with low gauge wire at low resistance and use on mech mods... so there is a lot of power and I have a lot of airflow right at the coils and the vape is dense and warm. I think a warm vape is another key to flavor. You just don't get the whole taste if it is cool. It's kind of like eating a cold pizza. But this is true even for flavors with a cooling agent like a mint or menthol. The taste is still much fuller and far better when the vape is warm and dense. Oh, yeah, and with all this power and airflow I am, of course, taking lung hits. There is no other way to get this kind of thick dense cloud. The flavors are immense. If the RDA I am using has even greater airflow, I will compensate with a build more appropriate that will draw even more power. But thats about it. RDAs are great!

 

[Mad Scientist]

Let's go through this.

Two identical coils at the identical wattage will produce the identical amount of vapor, right?

Now if the atty is smaller in volume the parts of vapor to parts of air will be higher. Right.

When you inhale the blend of vapor to air will be richer than in a larger atty. Right?.

Atty builders build mini attys because they sell and a lot of the eCig users want better flavor.

To me a mini atty tastes better and that is good enough for me.

There are two ways to restrict the volume in an atty. Make the atty smaller in diameter. 22 mm is the standard diameter for mech mods and the width of box mods. A smaller diameter atty would look strange. The other option is to reduce the height with the mini atty's and that is the direction they went.

Yes, I understand what you're saying but the difference in internal volume is only a few cc's (or less). The average lung capacity of an adult human male is 6,000 cc. The percentage of air that needs to be displaced by air/vapor mix in the larger atty compared to the smaller atty for a full lung hit is about 0.0005% more vapor-less air. That five ten-thousandths of a percent. Even with a half inhale it would only be about one one-thousandth of a percent. The difference would not be perceptible on the basis of atty volume alone.

I agree 100% that smaller attys are easier to build to produce better flavor, but there's more going on than just a few cc's of volume. Have to come up with an easy way to be able to actually see the airflow path. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an easy way lol.

 

[Two_Bears]

I can get great flavor with nearly any RDA. The key is using an RDA. I build it with low gauge wire at low resistance and use on mech mods... so there is a lot of power and I have a lot of airflow right at the coils and the vape is dense and warm. I think a warm vape is another key to flavor. You just don't get the whole taste if it is cool. It's kind of like eating a cold pizza. But this is true even for flavors with a cooling agent like a mint or menthol. The taste is still much fuller and far better when the vape is warm and dense. Oh, yeah, and with all this power and airflow I am, of course, taking lung hits. There is no other way to get this kind of thick dense cloud. The flavors are immense. If the RDA I am using has even greater airflow, I will compensate with a build more appropriate that will draw even more power. But thats about it. RDAs are great!

Dave I agree with much of what you had to say.

1. RDAs are great.
2. A warmer vape has better flavor.
3. A denser vape has more flavor than a lower density vape.
4. Lung hits are the way to get the best flavor. When you mouth to lung you are lowering the density.

The one thing I must disagree with you on is the ultra low sub ohm builds. Some mods mech mods and batteries can not Fire at those ultra low ohm ratings.

The CoolFire 4 will not go below .3 ohms.

The Istick 40 TC is about the same as the mod above or possibly .2 ohms

Then the Mech mods if you build too low you could have the battery vent and possibly ruin your mech.

I use 28 gauge wire and my builds are .93-1.01 ohms.

Meaning if I forget to charge my mod I can throw my mini atty on my CoolFire, Istick, or even one of my X6 batteries and get a satisfactory vape with any of them.

 

[Two_Bears]

Yes, I understand what you're saying but the difference in internal volume is only a few cc's (or less). The average lung capacity of an adult human male is 6,000 cc. The percentage of air that needs to be displaced by air/vapor mix in the larger atty compared to the smaller atty for a full lung hit is about 0.0005% more vapor-less air. That five ten-thousandths of a percent. Even with a half inhale it would only be about one one-thousandth of a percent. The difference would not be perceptible on the basis of atty volume alone.

I agree 100% that smaller attys are easier to build to produce better flavor, but there's more going on than just a few cc's of volume. Have to come up with an easy way to be able to actually see the airflow path. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an easy way lol.

Mad scientist.

There is a saying that the subconscious mind is aware of hundreds of thousands of bits of information but the conscious mind can only process about 1% of that data. Think of it this way the subconscious mind is aware of everything on the hard drive and the conscious mind can process only the amount of data displayed on the screen.

Since the perception of the conscious mind is lumited: the first half second or so is a satisfying vape the conscious mind perceives the entire hit to be as satisfying as the first 1/2 second was.

 

[Two_Bears]

Mad scientist.

There is a saying that the subconscious mind is aware of hundreds of thousands of bits of information but the conscious mind can only process about 1% of that data. Think of it this way the subconscious mind is aware of everything on the hard drive and the conscious mind can process only the amount of data displayed on the screen.

Since the perception of the conscious mind is lumited: the first half second or so is a satisfying vape the conscious mind perceives the entire hit to be as satisfying as the first 1/2 second was.

Scientist lets put it this way. Let's use the Hershey chocolate bar.

This has a bitter aftertaste and on the first bite or two you really tase the bitterness. However as you continue to eat the bar you taste less and less of the bitterness because the conscious mind has been diverted to paying attention to other things. The phone rings, a special bulletin comes on TV, a neighbor says hello, etc. See what I mean?

 

[DaveSignal]

Dave I agree with much of what you had to say.

1. RDAs are great.
2. A warmer vape has better flavor.
3. A denser vape has more flavor than a lower density vape.
4. Lung hits are the way to get the best flavor. When you mouth to lung you are lowering the density.

The one thing I must disagree with you on is the ultra low sub ohm builds. Some mods mech mods and batteries can not Fire at those ultra low ohm ratings.

The CoolFire 4 will not go below .3 ohms.

The Istick 40 TC is about the same as the mod above or possibly .2 ohms

Then the Mech mods if you build too low you could have the battery vent and possibly ruin your mech.

I use 28 gauge wire and my builds are .93-1.01 ohms.

Meaning if I forget to charge my mod I can throw my mini atty on my CoolFire, Istick, or even one of my X6 batteries and get a satisfactory vape with any of them.

It has to be low if using a mech. Thats how mechs get their power. You can still be safe with it if you understand the principles. I have never vented a battery due to an atomizer build. And I build RDAs every day.
A regulated mod works differently, so you can get away with higher builds.

 

[bluehaze013]

I think you nailed it with the condensation, it's why everyone associates a warm dense vape with flavor. The more dense and the more warm the vape the more condensation occurs. I think the biggest discrepancy comes from people labeling RDA's as either "cloud chasers" or "flavor chasers" It takes more wattage to get the same dense vape out of a larger chamber vs the smaller chamber and until recently 100w, 200w etc mods weren't readily available most people vape on their 30w or 40w isticks and coolfires and they don't have enough wattage to get a good vape out of a larger chamber so they label them as "cloud chasers" and the smaller chambers get labeled as the "flavor chasers" because those are the only atty's they are capable of getting flavor from with the limitations of the devices they are using.

But you can actually get the same flavor out of a bigger chamber if you have enough wattage to keep the volume of vapor to air consistent with the smaller chamber and can get more flavor if you exceed that due to the larger volume and increased airflow.

 

[DaveSignal]

I think you nailed it with the condensation, it's why everyone associates a warm dense vape with flavor. The more dense and the more warm the vape the more condensation occurs. I think the biggest discrepancy comes from people labeling RDA's as either "cloud chasers" or "flavor chasers" It takes more wattage to get the same dense vape out of a larger chamber vs the smaller chamber and until recently 100w, 200w etc mods weren't readily available most people vape on their 30w or 40w isticks and coolfires and they don't have enough wattage to get a good vape out of a larger chamber so they label them as "cloud chasers" and the smaller chambers get labeled as the "flavor chasers" because those are the only atty's they are capable of getting flavor from with the limitations of the devices they are using.

But you can actually get the same flavor out of a bigger chamber if you have enough wattage to keep the volume of vapor to air consistent with the smaller chamber and can get more flavor if you exceed that due to the larger volume and increased airflow.

Well, the cloud chasing RDAs have massive airflow and are intended to be used with multiple coils and huge power. But, as you said, with the right build/amount of power, they can be immensely flavorful too.

 

[CasketWeaver]

That's why I'd make an RDA to chase clouds and produce more flavor and throat hit via a 2nd chamber. The first chamber (low) would be the evaporation chamber and the 2nd chamber would be a condensation / cooling chamber. I've had a few "duds" when it comes to the flavor department with tiny ... chambers. As I like my nicotine to hit me like a freight train (which is why I drip a 6mg) and I like my flavor so I can see how a spitless (means no popping juice gets in your mouth) RDA design with a removable inner chamber would be an awesome idea. Believe it or not, I feel like I get pretty good VTF on my MXv4 with the PC tube attached, bottom AF sealed, and the side AFC set to 3 holes. But that RDA is designed for "clouds bruh". I guess it depends on what you do, how you build, and how strong your flavorings are.

 

[Tom Forde]

Besides direct airflow and chamber size, let's try and analyze another aspect of an RDA. Your coils. Let's say we all have the equipment to Clapton up coils & make more intricate builds like 5-7 loop vertebraids, alien wraps, arched Claptons...etc, (drill, multiple gauges of wire & ribbon wire; for example - 24g,26g,32g,34g - and the patience it requires), the coils themselves are a factor in flavor/vapor production. My buddy, who had never use anything other than a set of dual 24g parallel coils/single strand 24g coils, stopped by my place earlier in the week. The only atty he has is a mutation x v4. Naturally, building for a few local B&M's I have a few sticks of various kinds of Claptons & braids lying around that I would normally coil up and sell. I set him up with a 6 wrap 2.5mm ID multi-strand framed coil with 12 36g cores framed by 2x28g & wrapped up in 34g, all N80. I wicked it up properly, and closed off the side airflow so only the bottom was being used. He took one hit and his first words were "holy ****....the flavor is so much better," while the vapor production was just a little bit less than his previous build, and the ramp time was longer, but the overall vape he told me was much better.
I believe you can get better flavor with twisted, claptoned, braided & whatever else over single strand wire.
Let's think about why....when you make something like a Clapton you create little pockets for the juice to rest on the heating element. The thinner gauges you use, the more little pockets you will create. An alien coil for example has clearly visible grooves over the 3 strands of core wire:

And while yes, they're in a REDUCED CHAMBER in my hobo v3.1, without cotton, if you drip a couple small drops of juice on the lower lead, you can watch the juice travel through each groove until it reaches the other end of the coil. So the coil itself is holding juice without even a wick.
Characteristics of a flavor atty should not be limited to size, drip tip bore size, and afc - but also your coils. Even larger atty's with more afc like the mutation x v4 can get pretty flavorful when you close off some of the airholes and you have a coil or set of coils that will hold juice inside of them.
I intend on experimenting with SS mesh in my builds soon, as it is used as a wick primarily, but can be used to build coils with. I hear the flavor they produce is incredible.

 

[jhhollier]

If I have to use Fancy Coil X in an RDA to get good flavor(which, admittedly, good flavor is highly subjective) out of it, it's probably not an atty geared toward flavor.