Chinese clones Rant / Discussion
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Actually, my sister just received her first mod today. She's seen my vaping journey and experienced it vicariously through me, from getting my first cig a like, to ego-Cs, to APVs, to "high-end" mech mods and RBAs. She's not a heavy smoker at all, but wanted something nice-looking, effective, and self-serviceable (as in I can maintain/rebuild it for her). She didn't think it wouldn't be worth it for her to spend as much as I have on my mods for occasional use. So I suggested an Hcigar Neme clone for her, since I heard it was one of the better clones (I don't personally own a Nemesis or any clones). This worked out perfectly, because I now know how a nemesis works and feels in person, and the fact that I'm so impressed by the clone kind of makes me want a real Nemesis.
So I would consider myself someone who suggests clones of mods I don't have to people who have no opinion on the matter so I can check it out in person to help me decide whether it's worth it or not to start saving up for the real one. Let's all work together.
(Of course I realize this is not technically, or untechnically, a different opinion on the matter as they've all been exhausted like thejake pointed out. I have enjoyed the read on many posts though
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The bolded part is clearly judgment, no?
A) The point with AQ in the argument is that like AQ, the counterfeiters are known thieves. Knowingly involved in a form of theft. Buying from them is supporting theft of that variety.
B) In my search of counterfeiters, it was stated that their money goes toward terrorism and/or has known ties to terror networks. Feel free to google this, or I'll provide links if this is deemed irrational claim.
C) I feel it is plausible AQ or groups just like AQ could be pulling the strings on the counterfeit market, be it the deceptive kind or the non-deceptive kind.
D) I think it is possible that not everything AQ does is evil, bad, immoral, just as it is possible that companies engaged in non-deceptive counterfeiting are possibly not engaged in evil, bad, immoral actions with the money they take in. But that they take in money from a form of counterfeiting, which is (inherently) immoral, is the crux of this discussion.
Could go thru the rest of the alphabet to make further points on this tangent, but I'll back off of using AQ as I can see it can be used as a deflection and appeal to emotion.
So my last post has been quoted several times by the anti clones, but not once was the questioned answered. so I will answer it for you...
No.
That wasn't so hard, was it? No, nobody's opinion has changed. Nobody's opinion is going to change. But instead of just leaving it at that, you had to take a couple more opportunities to belittle, and rub our noses in our "immorality" like bad puppies who messed your carpet.
You don't know me. You don't know my life, what I do or don't do, and to or for whom. But I'm glad that you guys, from your lofty perch on high, can be the deciders of morality for the rest of us. And all based on a battery tube. It must feel amazingly good, to be so pious.
I've had enough, and I won't be baited into further comment.
No.
That wasn't so hard, was it? No, nobody's opinion has changed. Nobody's opinion is going to change. But instead of just leaving it at that, you had to take a couple more opportunities to belittle, and rub our noses in our "immorality" like bad puppies who messed your carpet.
You don't know me. You don't know my life, what I do or don't do, and to or for whom. But I'm glad that you guys, from your lofty perch on high, can be the deciders of morality for the rest of us. And all based on a battery tube. It must feel amazingly good, to be so pious.
I've had enough, and I won't be baited into further comment.
I buy clones all the time, and I have no qualms in doing so. If I like the clone enough, I will dish out the money for the real made in USA version, but I'm not about to drop $200 on a mod or atty that I hate. I'd rather pay $30 for a mod, try it out, and then down the road when I can afford it, I will buy the real one. As far as clones not lasting as long, you're probably right. But I see it almost as try before you buy. You're not going to buy a Ferrari without test driving it first.
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Just like a rolling snowball, as ECF grows, we're going to collect more and more people who have no idea about forum etiquette... or etiquette, period... It'll only get worse before it gets better.
Who is anyone here, and I mean anyone, to truthfully argue the points of morality?? Really? ... Which one of you is the beacon of Moral uprightness??
No one needs to answer this of course, because I already know the answer ... NO ONE .. not a single one among us. T.R.U.T.H!
I cannot take this thread, or this futile discussion seriously, and I don't understand how, and why so many actually seem ready to burst a vessel over this topic. The original creators of the various "counterfeits" in question are not checking for any of you, not a single one of you. They don't know your name, how you live, where you live, or how you are feeling ...
So while you are all sitting here vociferously engaged in this battle going now where, those "creators/inventors are busy counting their money, and planning their next great creation... as well they should.
How is it that everyone BUT the ripped off creators has a major issue with counterfeiting ... why aren't they complaining, protesting, suing, raging, and ranting? .... Hmmmmm.
Taking on a debate, and battle over an issue that IS NOT your own, that does not affect your ability to breath, eat, sleep, walk, talk, or feed your family on a daily basis doesn't make you right, good, or morally upstanding ... it just makes you seem out of touch, and alignment with reality ... lacking in a genuinely constructive, productive, and fulfilling way to utilize, and express your mental energy.
The incessant complaining, and ranting, and accusing that has gone on in this forum as of late is just .... there are no words. Happy, productive, and fulfilled people don't complain, and rant as a hobby and activity ... as a way to occupy the dead space in their lives.
Morally upstanding Beings DO NOT debate, and discuss morality, THEY LIVE IT ... THEY DEMONSTRATE.
Morally upstanding Beings are usually happy Beings, because they live their lives in accordance with all things conducive to Peace .. not Wars. Morally upstanding Beings are psychologically healthy Beings, and their thoughts, feelings, and actions are in alignment with the Laws of Life, which do not have anything to do with the Ego driven Laws of men.
Why are you sooooo UNHAPPY??
None of you know anything, nor care anything about true Moral righteousness, because if you did, you wouldn't be here on this forum engaging in petty arguments regarding the immorality of clones and counterfeit e cigarette products ... You would be too busy tending to the sick, needy, hungry, abused, displaced, oppressed, and dehumanized citizens of this World, fighting for Humans, not inanimate material objects ... If you cared so much about Morality, and what is right.
The immoral judging immorality ... ahahaha, thats rich. I can hear the Son of Man laughing.... TRUTH!
I'd just like to thank China for inventing E-cigs. And Raidy for inventing the genesis atty.
20 years ago I was called in to help set up operation in Mexico for a decent sized company. Funny thing my monthly paycheck was more than 600 employees for a year in Mexico. The thing is benefits for those employees were crazy. They only worked in daylight too. I had a dose of reality on the first payday I saw at the plant. An armored car pulled into the razor wire topped fence. Security with machine guns surrounded us. The plant manager stood at the back of the car and gave the payroll to the employees in a single file line. Basically it was here is your cut, then his cut went into his left pocket.
What is the easiest way to cut costs? Cut wages. Wages weren't the reason the plant went to Mexico. You can thank employment taxes for that and the benefits. People trying to beat the system which in turn they beat themselves.
Excellent post Nikkita. If you don't mind I'd like to add this quote to my signature
How is one to learn what morality is without discussion and debate? The world would be a much different place if people passed silently through life.
morality isn't something that needs to be discussed. It is natural, like breathing. It varies from person to person, but isn't something that I can say "My morality is superior to your morality". Actions speak a whole lot louder than words
We disagree. It was considered completely moral to do many things that would be frowned upon today and many things done today would have been considered immoral in past society. You are over simplifying a very complex subject. Morality has evolved/devolved depending upon ones view and experience.
Morality is an artificial construct to make society possible. A means to override instinct. There is absolutely nothing natural about it.
I would argue that morality is instinct. It is instinctual for social beings to lean towards actions that do less harm to their peers, as long as it does no harm to themselves.
edit: also, hypocrisy to the max on my part for arguing morality!
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I will make an assumption and if I'm wrong, please let me know, but I'm pretty sure I'm the only member to have an MBA in global economics and also in finance. To put it bluntly, without China, money from China, and Chinese products, this country would have failed many years ago. I'm not going to go into it further, but that's the fact.
I have bought many authentic mods and I will never buy another if the price is over $100. I buy clones, too, because it's my money and I choose what I buy and how I spend what I earn.
From a production and economics viewpoint, if company A designs and produces one mod, the price will be ridiculous and company A would be fair to command a high $$ for the one mod. If the company then produces 5000 more mods off the original design, company A should be sensible enough to find the equilibrium price for market demand. Raw materials will for the production of 5000 units would be a nominal factor once the original design and product is produced. If company A has 5000 consumers willing to pay X amount of money, then that's what the market will dictate. Introducing clones into the market should not affect the 5000 consumers of the original mod. All that's added are the consumers buying the clones who would not have been part of company A's consumer base.
To make it easy, most people who buy clones do so because they want the mod, but either cannot afford or choose not to afford the authentic because of the high prices. It's a buyer's paradise and manufacturers either realized that we are in a demand driven economy where consumers have buying power in the marketplace than ever before.
I have bought many authentic mods and I will never buy another if the price is over $100. I buy clones, too, because it's my money and I choose what I buy and how I spend what I earn.
From a production and economics viewpoint, if company A designs and produces one mod, the price will be ridiculous and company A would be fair to command a high $$ for the one mod. If the company then produces 5000 more mods off the original design, company A should be sensible enough to find the equilibrium price for market demand. Raw materials will for the production of 5000 units would be a nominal factor once the original design and product is produced. If company A has 5000 consumers willing to pay X amount of money, then that's what the market will dictate. Introducing clones into the market should not affect the 5000 consumers of the original mod. All that's added are the consumers buying the clones who would not have been part of company A's consumer base.
To make it easy, most people who buy clones do so because they want the mod, but either cannot afford or choose not to afford the authentic because of the high prices. It's a buyer's paradise and manufacturers either realized that we are in a demand driven economy where consumers have buying power in the marketplace than ever before.
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I guess I'd like to make clear that if anyone, including me, is engaged in a so called immoral activity, it doesn't make them an entirely immoral being. I also don't think it is actually possible to make a being immoral by engaging in immoral activity. Actions do not define us for how would we know a moral being if we saw one?
Was Socrates a moral being? For he discussed and debated morality often.
Was MLK Jr. a moral being? For he made it a point to go around speaking on morality to counter pervading norms of his time. His words and shared wisdoms are more well known than his action, and yet both are well known.
There are many on the civil disobedience side of the ledger who's words would later become known as wisdom ahead of its time, while also plausibly timeless, and thus the pervading norms at the time were engaged in some sort of immorality that needed overcoming both in words and in action.
And so perhaps economic disobedience is doing just this, in our era.
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