Clarifying temperature control-a few questions.

[conanthewarrior]

Hello everyone, I hope you are OK.

First off I would like to thank everyone that explained to me how resistance does not factor in a regulated mod regarding amp draw. I have passed this on to a few friends at other places, they seemed to still be calculating builds on a regulated mod using Ohm's law for amp load-they now know how to correctly calculate, thanks to all of you explaining to me.

I have a couple of questions regarding Temperature control.

I understand that TC works by taking your base resistance, and by using a wire type of which increases in resistance when heated, can then reduce power to try to maintain that temp level, whichever temperature is your preference.

Due to the previous thread, I understand now how TC builds can be so low resistance safely, I never understood how they could fire at such a low resistance safely, now I know it is watts/V, then for efficiency say 90%, take the calculation and divide again by 0.9- and resistance doesn't matter, it makes perfect sense. Also it adds up to why my Dual 18650 DNA200 is limited to 133W, as near cutoff voltage, you are just a tad over 20A (This is with a 6.6V cutoff, slightly higher you won't reach that high).

My main question is this. I, myself, have not really noticed a decrease in battery life when using TC, although many I speak to do say that happens.

I would of thought that with TC, battery life could be longer, as soon as that temperature is reached, power drops, also pulling less load from the battery/batteries.

But then, people I speak to mention the board calculating constantly takes a hit on the battery life. Now, I know it is very clever what it does, but I can't imagine it using enough power to make a very noticeable difference, as a lot of people claim.

So, I would really like to know, lets use 50W as an example at 240C. Usually with my builds, that is reached within a second, then power drops to around 20-30W to maintain temp (This is on my DNA200's-other devices do not show a drop in wattage, I guess maybe they use PWM to maintain temperature?).

So, really I would like to know, with TC, do you find you experience better battery life, or worse? I am going to test myself this, but it would be great to have some input on the matter before doing so.

By the way, I proved to myself resistance does not matter on a regulated mod, using my ipv D3. I used a 0.2 Ohm coil at 40W, then a 0.6 Ohm coil at 40W-and the 0.2 build actually lasted for 11 3 second hits longer. I understand that due to me being human, it was probably much closer-although I understand bucking voltage is more efficient than boosting, so that could be a factor.

Thank you all for you help, and all the best, Conan.

 

[GeorgeS]

I really did not "build" any volt/power type builds as I migrated directly from toodle puffing factory atomizers to RTA's with TC builds so I can't speak of any battery life savings as I don't really have anything to compare TC to.

I do know that larger TC wire has less resistance than smaller TC wire. Larger TC wire has more MASS and requires more energy to heat up than smaller TC wire.

Given the same wire mass (Watts mode vs TC mode) I'd suspect that TC mode will use the same or more battery life than Watts mode. (many TC users will set maximum wattage to bring their build to temperature as quickly as possible, there by using MORE battery life than in Watts mode)

Where TC mode can offer better battery life is by using smaller wire than used in power/watts mode. Less wire mass takes less energy to reach and maintain the set point.

I'd suggest taking a peek at the 'wire wizard' on SteamEngine, a 0.5 ohm Kanthal A1 coil is very much different than a 0.5 ohm Titanium G1 coil.

 

[edyle]

........

My main question is this. I, myself, have not really noticed a decrease in battery life when using TC, although many I speak to do say that happens.
....

But then, people I speak to mention the board calculating constantly takes a hit on the battery life.
....

So, I would really like to know, lets use 50W as an example at 240C. Usually with my builds, that is reached within a second, then power drops to around 20-30W to maintain temp (This is on my DNA200's-other devices do not show a drop in wattage, I guess maybe they use PWM to maintain temperature?).

So, really I would like to know, with TC, do you find you experience better battery life, or worse? I am going to test myself this, but it would be great to have some input on the matter before doing so.

.

If somebody happens to be using a tc coil that runs at a higher power on average that what they normally run in wattage mode, then they will find it drains the battery faster.

If you want to compare battery drain in tc mode to vw mode, you'd need to use the same steel coil in wattage mode and tc mode.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Thank you for your answers.

I tend to use 26G Ti or SS316L for TC, and generally not at a very high power.

It makes a lot of sense that users who have thicker coils, which have a longer ramp up time, using more power to get up to temp quicker, and also that due to this, the reduction in power will still be fairly higher in watts than I use myself.

@GeorgeS , I am very familiar with the wire wizard, it has been a good friend for me and my DNA200's-I have used steam engine since I got my first box mod, a Sigelei 30 Mini around March last year.

Previous to this, I used Ego style devices unsuccessfully,and before that cigalikes, but once I started with the Sigelei, I managed to quit-and have built quite a collection now . (I did quit with Champix, but hit a bump, hence the reasoning behind the mod purchases).

In general, for TC I use at a maximum of 40J/W, around 230-240C. On my Evolv powered devices, I have the preheat set to around 60-80W for 1 second, depending on wire type.

So, I gather where I am not using my devices with very large, prebuilt coils, and not so much power, is the reason I don't seem to see a difference on my battery life. (Or, negligible enough for me not to notice).

All the best, Conan.

 

[GeorgeS]

So, I gather where I am not using my devices with very large, prebuilt coils, and not so much power, is the reason I don't seem to see a difference on my battery life. (Or, negligible enough for me not to notice).
All the best, Conan.

If you make your TC builds to use approximately the same energy as the VW builds you used before then I'd agree that your likely not going to see any real difference in battery life.

Time between charges is important to me so I try to optimize my TC builds to ramp fast and use as little battery energy as I can. Those who 'mirror' their VW builds with TC wire may generally find that TC wire starts out with lower resistance than Kanthal-A1 and the lower resistance draws more power - and get worse battery life.

Some months ago we had some interesting conversations/arguments about 0.5 ohm TC coils and 1.5 ohm TC coils. While both will use the same amount of energy (and battery life) being fired at 40W, (after all, 40W is 40W right?) the concept that I'll fire my 1.5 ohm TC coils at a mere 15W seemed unfathomable to some.

 

[conanthewarrior]

If you make your TC builds to use approximately the same energy as the VW builds you used before then I'd agree that your likely not going to see any real difference in battery life.

Time between charges is important to me so I try to optimize my TC builds to ramp fast and use as little battery energy as I can. Those who 'mirror' their VW builds with TC wire may generally find that TC wire starts out with lower resistance than Kanthal-A1 and the lower resistance draws more power - and get worse battery life.

Some months ago we had some interesting conversations/arguments about 0.5 ohm TC coils and 1.5 ohm TC coils. While both will use the same amount of energy (and battery life) being fired at 40W, (after all, 40W is 40W right?) the concept that I'll fire my 1.5 ohm TC coils at a mere 15W seemed unfathomable to some.

I was under the impression that on a regulated mod, resistance does not play a factor in amps drawn-wattage does, and that is it really-as in, 40W is 40W like you said. I did not realise that lower resistance TC coils would draw more power, I actually made a thread a few weeks ago about it, as I had been working out amp load using Ohm's law, like many do, but now work it out by battery voltage/watts/chip efficiency-the correct way for my regulated mods-I obviously still apply ohm's law to my Mechs when they get used (That is quite rare though).

I apologise if I am misunderstanding though, I sometimes find things hard to grasp through text due to some damage I sustained to the brain a few years ago(It is not severe). I think you may be explaining what I understand but in another way-often me and my partner argue over something, saying I am right, she is right, until we realise we are talking about the exact same thing-I just have an odd way of explaining it.

It is odd that some people found it hard to understand you would fire a 1.5 Ohm coil at 15W, currently on my tesla nano(Newest mod, arrived yesterday), I am using a Derringer RDA with a 26G 2MM ID 1Ohm coil, at around 17W, or a Goblin Mini (My smallest tank) at around 16W, single coil. If I fired them much higher than this, I would not enjoy the experience. Sub-Ohm I occasionally hover around 40W, with dual coils around 0.5, but in general I vape at a fairly low wattage.

 

[KenD]

I was under the impression that on a regulated mod, resistance does not play a factor in amps drawn-wattage does, and that is it really-as in, 40W is 40W like you said. I did not realise that lower resistance TC coils would draw more power, I actually made a thread a few weeks ago about it, as I had been working out amp load using Ohm's law, like many do, but now work it out by battery voltage/watts/chip efficiency-the correct way for my regulated mods-I obviously still apply ohm's law to my Mechs when they get used (That is quite rare though).

I apologise if I am misunderstanding though, I sometimes find things hard to grasp through text due to some damage I sustained to the brain a few years ago(It is not severe). I think you may be explaining what I understand but in another way-often me and my partner argue over something, saying I am right, she is right, until we realise we are talking about the exact same thing-I just have an odd way of explaining it.

It is odd that some people found it hard to understand you would fire a 1.5 Ohm coil at 15W, currently on my tesla nano(Newest mod, arrived yesterday), I am using a Derringer RDA with a 26G 2MM ID 1Ohm coil, at around 17W, or a Goblin Mini (My smallest tank) at around 16W, single coil. If I fired them much higher than this, I would not enjoy the experience. Sub-Ohm I occasionally hover around 40W, with dual coils around 0.5, but in general I vape at a fairly low wattage.

Watts are indeed watts. What I believe GeorgeS is alluding to (simplifying it somewhat) is that lower resistance coils tend to use thicker wire, have more coil mass, and therefore require more power to heat up. However, that needn't be the case. You could (in theory) build a 1 ohm coil using 24 ga ss316 that would require a lot of power to heat up (265 mm of 24 ga wire), or you could (in theory) build a .3 ohm coil using 30 ga ss316 that would require very little power to heat up (20 mm of 30 ga wire). So more coil mass equals more power required, and less coil mass equals less power required. It's all about coil mass, resistance doesn't matter.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[GeorgeS]

You have to build with energy use in mind. Thinner wire (28-32AWG) heats up faster however does not have the mass of the thicker (22-26AWG) wire.

There is a relationship between the mass of your coil and the mass of your wick. I once tried some very thin wire on a 4.0-4.5mm wick and could barely get any vape out of it - no matter how much power I applied. The wick was acting like a ginormous heat sink. The same wire, same number of windings on a 2.0-2.5mm wick vaped like crazy.

If I design my build to work fine at 15-20W I may realize some battery life advantages compared to a build designed to work well (and used) at twice the wattage.

Using Steam Engine to help you can design your coil to be power sipping or power hungry.

 

[conanthewarrior]

Thank you both-it was what I thought you could of meant, I apologise there for thinking it may of meant something different.

I understood coil mass mattered, due to the simple factor of the power required to heat a thicker coil. When I did my own test on resistance not mattering, I tried to keep it as close as possible, but using a 0.2 Coil in the Uwell Rafale at 40W, then the 0.54 RBA at the same 40W-the wire appeared to be around the same size, but I understand the 0.54 Coil would of had more mass due to more wraps.

I actually got around 11 more hits from the 0.2 Ohm coil, which could be factored into less ramp up, me being a human and not a machine so not every pull was 3 seconds, and also the 0.5 Coil was boosted, while the 0.2 was bucked.

I will keep in mind the mass of my wick- In general now wicking is just a kind of 'feel' thing, I know when it is right for me. But, I think it is always worth experimenting, and I enjoy that, so I will definitely try more loosely packed wicked VS what I would normally use.

I enjoy builds that work at around 15-20W, I also enjoy builds that work slightly higher too though. It depends what I am after really.

For my Single 18650 mods, I will tend to use a build that will require less power, just due to battery life for when I am out. Dual/triple 18650 or Li-Po, I use whatever takes my fancy. Although, I don't enjoy blowing huge clouds in the street due to the attention it causes, plus I don't like my vapour blowing other people's way.
I know it is vapour, but they usually start choking and waving their arms, I do try my best to avoid others but sometimes the wind can carry it a few feet unintentionally.

At home, is the only time I go 'Mad'. This is rare, maybe once a week-but I do have a few drippers set up with fused clapton's, Tiger coils, various twisted wires, and very rarely will have half hour of madness at 80W. No way would I vape this way outdoors though, I just would not feel comfortable towards others.

Thank you all for your answers and help , Conan

 

[GeorgeS]

Cool.

I also prefer low power builds as I like to get as much vaping time out of a battery as possible. I find myself trying to screw down tinny coils with even smaller wire. I mostly use Silica rope.

While when I started making my own it was about how big a ID that I could fit I now first look at whatever juice "channels" there are and what size WICK would work best with the channels. Once the wick size is picked then its a matter of wire type, gauge and number of windings.

Here is where a balancing act between Steam Engine's "heat flux" at 10-15W and ease of use/winding of wire type/gauge comes into play. Thinner wire usually has higher heat flux while thicker wire and more windings have lower heat flux.

While a TC controlled mod won't save me any battery life, I'm still experimenting with builds that work well <=25W. Personally I found the quick and easy solution to extended battery life is having DUAL 18650 mods or 26650 mods or just carrying more than one with me at a time with one serving as a backup.

Cheers!

 

[conanthewarrior]

Cool.

I also prefer low power builds as I like to get as much vaping time out of a battery as possible. I find myself trying to screw down tinny coils with even smaller wire. I mostly use Silica rope.

While when I started making my own it was about how big a ID that I could fit I now first look at whatever juice "channels" there are and what size WICK would work best with the channels. Once the wick size is picked then its a matter of wire type, gauge and number of windings.

Here is where a balancing act between Steam Engine's "heat flux" at 10-15W and ease of use/winding of wire type/gauge comes into play. Thinner wire usually has higher heat flux while thicker wire and more windings have lower heat flux.

While a TC controlled mod won't save me any battery life, I'm still experimenting with builds that work well <=25W. Personally I found the quick and easy solution to extended battery life is having DUAL 18650 mods or 26650 mods or just carrying more than one with me at a time with one serving as a backup.

Cheers!

It does seem like to the majority of vapers, getting the best vape you can while saving battery life is a priority.

I know there is a few that enjoy vaping at 100W+, if that is their thing then I see nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't appeal to me as a daily way to vape.

I will be honest here-the last time I used Silica rope was in a CE4 clearomiser! I haven't, for over a year, used it. I have only used organic/japanese cotton (Cheap for 200 sheets of Muji or Cotton puff), and Rayon. I tried rayon after some was sent to me by a friend.

I didn't mind it, but went back to Cotton.

In steam engine, I try to keep my builds in the green area of heat flux for my chosen wattage, although generally the slightly higher side. I have tried once when it entered into the Red when I was learning, and attempted to use this at full power. This was horrendous lol.

I find that dual 18650 mods are ideal for taking with me on longer trips out, or like you say, a extra mod-or even batteries but in a case, never, ever loose.

I haven't actually got myself a regulated 26650 device, although I would like to add one to the collection. I enjoy collecting mods, is there any specific 26650 mod you could recommend?

I do own some 26650's for my mechs, but haven't seen many 26650 regulated devices. I know there is the Sigelei 75 updated version, but after owning the original, I am a bit weary as that is a good looking device, but performance wise, my worst. Vaping over 35-40W is practically out of the question, due to how fast the battery drains. I am almost sure that the chip actually reads voltage sag to 3.3V and cuts off, instead of resting voltage at 3.3V. I can not think of another way battery life is so bad if I am honest.

Thanks, Conan.

 

[GeorgeS]

I find the silica does not degrade like the cotton does. While it tasted 'odd' when I first started using it, the oddness goes away before the tank is empty. I like the simple matching of ID with OD of the rope, can cut it to length almost the 1st time and is good for over 1000F.

I'm still contemplating Steam Engine's "heat flux" numbers and how they may (or not!) relate to a TC build/device. I've actually migrated from thinking thinner wire with more wraps (very low heat flux) is better to targeting a heat flux in the 300's with a wattage target of 10-20W (and same 28-32AWG wire). While in my mind less windings equate to less surface area and less vapor it also equates to less mass and less power needed to reach a specific 'heat flux' (more efficient?).

There are 4 "main stream" regulated TC mods available right now that I can think of: VF Stout, Sigelei (not sure the model name), Dicodes #6 and Gingervapor Boxer 26650.

Last weekend I held a Sigelei 26650 powered mod in my hand and while I liked the feel (and generally like Sigelei) having no TCR adjustment is a show stopper for me so I did not consider it further. I've been keeping an eye on the VF-Stout which is likely the least expensive of the bunch. The Stout appears to have the same software feature set as the recent JoyTech and Wismec box mods and is on my short list of mods I intend to purchase. The Dicodes #6 and Boxer models are "high end" devices with similar price tags. While I enjoy using both, the boxer feels smaller and is much lighter (due to the 3d printed nylon case) and as such is my go-to favorite right now. Both 26650 models will last me about as long as a 2x LG HG2 equipped 18650 mod but are smaller and lighter.

When it comes to types of vaping everything that I've read tends to agree that the overwhelming majority of vapors are 'toodle puffing' on low power setups that some here on ECF might regard as barely 'starter gear'. I still make use of my Twist, Vamo and Sigelei VV/VW tube mods.

 

[Asmo6]

When it comes to types of vaping everything that I've read tends to agree that the overwhelming majority of vapors are 'toodle puffing' on low power setups that some here on ECF might regard as barely 'starter gear'. I still make use of my Twist, Vamo and Sigelei VV/VW tube mods.

Toodle puffer. Like a sharp menthol juice in a R91 being used in the smallest 18350 mod I could get my hands on? Because I did that for the last probably year and change and it was good enough. I moved into some better flavors recently and decided to hit them harder and found 50W and (.275-.4'ish OHM) dual coils about my maximum level of enjoyment. I use mech's and still prefer mechs and just winding the RIGHT coil for the job. Clapton not ramping quick enough for ya? Nichrome core. Done.

I just moved into temp control and it's alright. The device I have is not ideally suited to it I don't think. But, with Ti can I wind anything more elaborate than a stretched out single strand coil?

Or are all the devices set to gauge resistance based off of a given thickness of wire? Is the temp calc run solely by calculating a given resistance and measuring the change based on a known thickness of wire? Like say I twist some Ti, or use it as a core? I could even snip back the outer wire so it was simply there and let the Ti core be the only element connected.

Can these things be done? (Safely mind you.)

 

[KenD]

Toodle puffer. Like a sharp menthol juice in a R91 being used in the smallest 18350 mod I could get my hands on? Because I did that for the last probably year and change and it was good enough. I moved into some better flavors recently and decided to hit them harder and found 50W and (.275-.4'ish OHM) dual coils about my maximum level of enjoyment. I use mech's and still prefer mechs and just winding the RIGHT coil for the job. Clapton not ramping quick enough for ya? Nichrome core. Done.

I just moved into temp control and it's alright. The device I have is not ideally suited to it I don't think. But, with Ti can I wind anything more elaborate than a stretched out single strand coil?

Or are all the devices set to gauge resistance based off of a given thickness of wire? Is the temp calc run solely by calculating a given resistance and measuring the change based on a known thickness of wire? Like say I twist some Ti, or use it as a core? I could even snip back the outer wire so it was simply there and let the Ti core be the only element connected.

Can these things be done? (Safely mind you.)

Temp control calculations are based on the temperature coefficient of resistance so the only thing that matters is the coil material. Wire gauge or initial resistance (as long as within the parameters of the device) don't matter, as long as the initial resistance is read correctly.

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[Asmo6]

Thank you. Time to go back to the lab and see what I can cook up.

 

[ChuckMichigan]

Watts are indeed watts. What I believe GeorgeS is alluding to (simplifying it somewhat) is that lower resistance coils tend to use thicker wire, have more coil mass, and therefore require more power to heat up. However, that needn't be the case. You could (in theory) build a 1 ohm coil using 24 ga ss316 that would require a lot of power to heat up (265 mm of 24 ga wire), or you could (in theory) build a .3 ohm coil using 30 ga ss316 that would require very little power to heat up (20 mm of 30 ga wire). So more coil mass equals more power required, and less coil mass equals less power required. It's all about coil mass, resistance doesn't matter.

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The amount of power required to heat the coil wire is pretty small compared to heating the e-liquid around the coil and vaporizing a portion of that the e-liquid. For example, 26.5 mm of 24 gauge 316SS wire would weigh about 0.043 grams. Using an average heat capacity for 316 SS (0.115 cal/g/C at 100C) the heat required to bring the coil from 20C to 200C would be 0.89 calories. Now compare that to heating say 0.5 grams of e-liquid from 20 to 200C (using a heat capacity of 0.6 cal/g/C) or 54 calories. If 30 mg of e-liquid is vaporized (heat of vaporization 200 cal/g) that requires an additional 6 calories. So heating the coil takes roughly (.89/(.89+54+6)) or 1.5% of the total heat (power).