Read this! Clive Bates responds to Cali DPH insults to vapefam

[DrMA]

Fighting the Vape Militia Online and Off – a reply to the speakers « The counterfactual

 

[Kent C]

One of Bates' best pieces. He hits on every major point with good evidence backing and some rather good advice for people who should know better.

If they reject that advice, then it becomes quite obvious that their goals and purposes are something other than 'public health'. And if that's the case, they should leave their current jobs, or better - that the DOJ look into their finances, motives, lies and cover ups, which should end in jail time.

edit: Thanks nicnik....

 

[nicnik]

One of the best pieces Siegal has written and that's saying a lot, because he has had some good ones since he went THR.

You meant Bates, not Siegal, right?

 

[nicnik]

or better - that the DOJ look into their finances, motives, lies and cover ups, which should end in jail time.

Not too far fetched to imagine TC people finding this thread.

WHISTLEBLOWERS WANTED

No pay, but it might feel good helping save millions of lives.

 

[Kent C]

You meant Bates, not Siegal, right?

Yes. Thanks! Was just reading a Siegel piece right before that ....edited it to a more appropriate sentence. Some of Siegel's earlier work, not that good actually - though even he has come around.

 

[Jumpin' In...]

Wonderful! Now if only the press would pick up on this and actually do their best to fairly investigate and report on both sides of the issue. I know that's wishful thinking, but what the hey...

Nonetheless, we've had some good news lately, haven't we?

 

[Katmar]

Clive Bates ROCKS the world of vapers. Precise, concise and truthful.

 

[zoiDman]

Oh how far we have gotten from this Basic Tenet.

"Your legitimate role is to use public money to inform, not to manipulate."

 

[Lessifer]

I shared this to Governor Brown's office, I think(still learning how to do that kind of thing in fb), so how do we get the people who matter to actually read this?

Not that you all don't matter, but I mean, those who can directly bring about change.

 

[sofarsogood]

Propaganda takes two forms. Claims not supported by evidence or streams of evidence that don't reference any specific claim. The anti vaping folks do a lot of both. Propagandists raise issues that they don't actually care about and/or have no interest in solutions. They refuse to discuss issues on the merits. These tactics always mean they want something they have no intention of discussing. May be they have a mental block, may be they are intentionally deceptive, or a combination of the two.

Most of us think the controlling influence is money. When is that discussed?

 

[Lessifer]

Propaganda takes two forms. Claims not supported by evidence or streams of evidence that don't reference any specific claim. The anti vaping folks do a lot of both. Propagandists raise issues that they don't actually care about and/or have no interest in solutions. They refuse to discuss issues on the merits. These tactics always mean they want something they have no intention of discussing. May be they have a mental block, may be they are intentionally deceptive, or a combination of the two.

Most of us think the controlling influence is money. When is that discussed?

Which is better, an ignorant and ill informed public health agency, or a corrupt one?

 

[rico942]

Which is better, an ignorant and ill informed public health agency, or a corrupt one?

Perhaps they are one and the same ?

Incompetence is a particularly vile form of corruption, accepting compensation for a task unfulfilled or poorly done due to ignorance and lack of qualifications ...

 

[Kent C]

Which is better, an ignorant and ill informed public health agency, or a corrupt one?

Good question. A bit of a chicken/egg situation. :- )

In some cases ignorance begets corruption. Mistakes that don't result in correction/introspection are going to multiply to put the person in a state where corruption is his only answer to gaining anything.

However, if someone does a bad deed, either intentionally or accidently (and again, no introspection) that has an effect of harming the mind - they lie, or ignore the reality and that will bring about ignorance. There's much more to it all than that, of course. But for here, that's about as minimal as one can get. lol...

 

[bobwho77]

A true masterpiece

 

[Lessifer]

There's always the hope that ignorance can be corrected, corruption is harder to eradicate.

 

[rico942]

As much as I desire to preserve the English language, I do like new words that condense a whole paragraph or more into a concise package ...

One such is "blamestorming" ...

blame·storm·ing
ˈblāmˌstôrmiNG/
noun
noun: blamestorming

1. group discussion regarding the assigning of responsibility for a failure or mistake.

I live for the day when vaping is fully vindicated, and this process begins in the public health tobacco control industry, it will be most entertaining ...

Picture a professional liar's cage match ...

 

[sofarsogood]

Which is better, an ignorant and ill informed public health agency, or a corrupt one?

Ill informed is better bacause that can be corrected. What we are angry about is their opposition is beyond reason. THAT is corruption.

 

[Von Vape]

I shared this to Governor Brown's office, I think(still learning how to do that kind of thing in fb), so how do we get the people who matter to actually read this?

Not that you all don't matter, but I mean, those who can directly bring about change.

What he said!

There's the rub. The mindset and propaganda already abound. Getting "the people who matter" turned around, and by that I mean at a minimum, educated on THE FACTS, is the uphill battle we as "pro - vapers" face.

IMO, a BIG part of the problem is the generic "handle" electronic vapor devices have been saddled with, "E-CIGS". BOOM, there ya go!
Is that "handle" ever going to go away? Of course not. I'm just saying that "handle" directly implies that vaping IS smoking, even though they are two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT things. The cat's out of the bag, the horses are out of the barn and the anti smoking - anti tobacco folks are off to the races! They are off on their own "stampede" with blinders on! Still, I hope and pray that "the people who matter" are enlightened some day SOON.

My ,
Von Vape

 

[suddenly]

There is one optimistic event happening around Rochester, NY. Now that's a pretty good size city. I usually say I am from Rochester rather than Newark because not many are aware of us, they always think NJ.

The doctors in this area are recommending vaping over smoking or these drugs that make you go blitzo. There was even in the paper, not an ad, but an article stating the benefits of vaping.

I am surprised the tobacco companies aren't selling them yet. I still believe they will. Why else would it be taking them so long to ban our habits and shut us down. This has been going on for years.

They are always bringing up teens as a major reason. To me its just a smokescreen.

 

[Kent C]

There's always the hope that ignorance can be corrected, corruption is harder to eradicate.

Corruption, when caught, can be taken out of society. Educating the ignorant is much harder to do in my estimation. Esp. with years of brainwashing from pre-school to doctorate.