Concern: Initial price < Maintenance price

[FsckCigs]

Thanks for the info Sailor, but we're not talking about what most people here own, we're talking about what the OP may decide to purchase, based on what's currently available. And sorry to hear your non-Joye eGos don't perform satisfactorily for you....I had seen and wondered about that particular brand, but perhaps I'll steer clear, sounds like maybe they're a case of "get what you pay for". Thanks for the heads-up. What about Joye stuff you've owned? How did it perform? As for longevity, every eGo I'm currently rotating is at least 7 months old, none are showing any signs of wearing out. I'll post in this thread when they die, if I remember.

Op: If you do decide eGos might be one of the options you wish to investigate, Joye's current eGo "upgrade" model switches between 3.4 regulated mode and unregulated mode, making the "3.4 issue" moot as far as Joyes are concerned...so you can disregard that part of the above discussion. The price of the new ones i about the same as the old. They should be available in coming weeks at vendors here, but they are currently in stock at Healthcabin, which is in China...reliable vendor but shipping takes longer. Link: [Joyetech] Joye eGo-C Upgrade 1000mAh Battery

 

[Sebbas]

This community is amazing!
Sailorman: your quick and informative response is exemplary.

Some background on me: I'm a fresh graduate from college. I've flirted with analogs for over 3 years and I have had a fling with physical addiction for a scant 2 days after ceasing to smoke after I kept feeling the nasty way an analog goes down--clearly toxic every time, and I know it's not necessary for smoke to feel that way because of my experience with more natural alternatives. I absolutely respect the habitual use of nicotine, but I do not want to abuse my body so badly to the reckless degree of feeling toxic for half an hour or more after every smoke. I very probably (almost positively) haven't smoked more than 6 packs in all of my 3-4 years of smoking analogs very occasionally.

Personal vaporizing seems to be the safest, most convenient, and most pleasurable means to inhale nicotine. It even seems worthy if only for inhaling personalized flavored air.

Alright, so what I learned was to stay away from "proprietary traps" like with batteries (etc.), and stick to 510 thread. The eGo is alright, but its proprietary nature is not for me.

Though, I didn't know vapes could go past $100. I don't see myself affording $200, but maybe in the future.

I can't imagine complexity being much of an issue. I just don't want to need to buy tools to "mod", and I don't want to solder. Form factor does not matter. Pocket friendliness is very important, but not absolutely necessary if there's justification that demands attention. Considering that I'm taking up nicotine, I can see how batteries and portability are important; thing is, generic batteries make this no problem because they're so cheap and easy to recharge--they last long too! APVs are worthy of consideration.

It also didn't occur to me that variable voltage (VV) could be so influential to the quality of the experience between different e-juices. Looking past the seemingly trivial effort to learn and operate the voltage to match the e-juice , I'm convinced that is necessary for the vapor connoisseur to own a machine with VV.

Readings suggest that a LR atomizer is obsolete and more expensive when used with higher voltage PVs because the higher power of larger 510 type machines can easily compensate for higher resistances.

Elfstone, your insightful, global reaching, and forward thinking is almost ridiculous in contrast to how uninformed people seemingly generally prefer to be. Frankly, there ought to be more folks like you.





As for my impressions of particular brands:

The Silver Bullet seems ok, but unremarkable.

Provari seems to be the mainstream VV.

The Reo seems extremely respectable, but going past the $200 mark, I'll just have to set it off until I have a fancy office or a Rolls Royce to go with it.

The Alpha has a very sturdy looking machine with a website that's got some mad marketing speak. If it's built like a loaded maglight, maybe it's worthy of the otherwise inflated pricing.

The E-power seems like what the eGO should have been.

The Lavatube seems most impressive for the price so far. VV at $70? Not bad.

I think Kay1959 is doing well by recommending batteries and a charger too. There's a quality to them that affects the experience and so the function of the charger and battery needs some explaining to more fully understand their role in the vaporizing experience.

DaveP makes a VERY important note regarding the safety of battery use. His claim that the 18650 IMR battery is safer, and how double battery mods have a remarkable record of catastrophic and dangerous failure is duly noted.

The EVO seems like a mediocre VV with a nice cheap price to go with it.

The GLV-2 has a lifetime warranty, and wv2win says it's the only PV with one--interesting.





I'm glad I reached out to this forum. It is clear that there are very informed voices out there that are wanting to be heard, and to inform. Not to take from their support at all, but I believe it wise to mildly suspicious of possible "fanboyism" or corrupting sponsorship behind some recommendations to buy something from someone.

For someone just breaking into the scene by swallowing up as much info as possible, I'll admit, it seems like the eGo caters to the uninformed--no offense to those that like it, but when there's something like the e-power that is better in every way and looks just like it, it's easy to look down on something that is more expensive and is maybe only more popular because it's marketed more. Again, I'm not meaning to offend, but I definitely want to acknowledge the sentiments of the forum members that are clearly more experienced. Like "they" say, at least it's better than something from a gas station so eGo gets respect for that, and claims to their ability to wean off folk from analogs may indeed be a priceless quality.

I hope my lengthy response does well to inform others about my thought process, so that the lot of you have some insight to gain from. Who knows? Maybe I’ll even influence marketing and development (in)directly somehow. I hope certainly hope so.

Again, I appreciate the AWESOME responses the community has put out for everyone to read—much appreciated!

 

[DaveP]

The eGo and its counterparts will go down in history as one of the great, reasonably priced PV's that made the vaping world successful. It's simple, effective, flexible, and elegant. Adding the variable voltage option just makes it more flexible.

The 18650 mods built on a similar design are extensions of the eGo design that offer more battery life and variable voltage with longer vape times at a reasonable price. I like the idea of replaceable parts such as the switch, which allows repair by the user.

There are inexpensive and expensive options for vaping hardware. I look at high end mods the way I look at cars, watches, and other well made items vs "consumer grade" items. There are Walmart watches and there are jewelry stores watches. Everyone appreciates the quality of a a fine watch, but we all wear a Walmart watch to knock around in.

The Lavatube falls somewhere in the middle. It gives you the variable voltage option at a reasonable price. Yes, it's aluminum and not stainless steel, but is cheap enough while still being sturdy. It's now becoming available in a 4 amp version that can better drive LR coils and uses an 18650 battery for much more power than an eGo.

When I go to the beach for a week in June, I'll probably take an eGo down to the water and leave my Provari locked up in the condo. The eGo is lightweight and works just fine. I have a DCT 1.7 tank that holds 3.5ml of juice. An extra battery will assure that I don't have to walk back up and get one if the 1.7 tank drains the first one! The Provari may be jealous, but that's how life is. It gets to play inside and out on the deck when I have my feet kicked up reading a book where no one can walk off with it when I'm not looking.

These days, there's a PV for all needs and situations.

 

[DedTV]

The Joye Ego-C is a contender, but I've seen so many veteran members of this esteemed forum sneer at it that it concerns me.

The Ego-C or the Smokeless Image stuff is the way to go. Anything else starts to get into the hobbiest or luxury side of vaping. And there's also a lot of Vaping Hipsters who reject things like the Egos because they're "too mainstream".
Try not to get caught up in that kind of thing.

It's like cooking. The difference between a dish cooked in a $10 pan bought at a drug store isn't going to be much different to the average person than one cooked in a $200 Mauviel pan. What's cooked in it will matter a lot more.
It's much the same for vaping. Finding a juice you like is much more important than what hardware you vape it with.

I personally use the Smokeless Image stuff. Even though I have (or had) a couple "luxury" PVs like a Provari, the Smokeless Image stuff just works without any fiddling needed or any need to do a ton of research to figure out how to use it properly. And they're economical. I've bought a ton of stuff to play around with but I could have easily got by with an X2, a couple packs of carts every month or so and a few bottles of juice.

The Smokeless image carts are as good as any of the Boges or Kangers I've used, their Clearomizers work great as well, you can get them in auto or manual and the manuals work with just about anything (you just need a $3 adapter for 510 stuff like the CE3s).
The minis work just as well as the X2s but the battery life got annoying as they'd only last me a couple hours, weren't passthrough (you can get a mini passthrough device from them, but it's not a battery while the X2s are both) and weren't as convenient to charge away from home. The 1300mah X2s last me all day long and are easy to charge on the fly if needed (they're passthrough and use very common Mini USB chargers) without looking like I'm carrying a lead pipe around (they're about the size of a cigar).

My VV stuff like the Provari is fun to use as I can use a LR cart on it with pure VG and pretend I'm a smoke machine. But if I just want to vape, my X2s are what I reach for. All buying those expensive PVs and other stuff did for me is prove I didn't need them.

 

[Sebbas]

A youtube video suggested that the Lavatube didn't really change voltages too much after all except on and only to regular resistance atomizers, so that's puts lavatube in equal standing with the rest.

I see that atomizers and cartomizers are just as important. Again, I would prefer to buy a few and reuse them forever if possible. At the same time, I wonder what cheap but reliable options are available.

 

[sailorman]

Thanks for the info Sailor, but we're not talking about what most people here own, we're talking about what the OP may decide to purchase, based on what's currently available. And sorry to hear your non-Joye eGos don't perform satisfactorily for you....I had seen and wondered about that particular brand, but perhaps I'll steer clear, sounds like maybe they're a case of "get what you pay for". Thanks for the heads-up. What about Joye stuff you've owned? How did it perform? As for longevity, every eGo I'm currently rotating is at least 7 months old, none are showing any signs of wearing out. I'll post in this thread when they die, if I remember.

The Firefly performs just like any 3.4V ego. It's not a matter of being a Joye or not. It puts out what it's supposed to put out and the voltage is regulated at 3.4V, just like the Joye ego. In fact, the build quality seems better than the Joye, but maybe that's because it's all stainless steel. A the very least, it's as good or better than the Joye version. Since Joye also licenses it's batteries and electronics to numerous other companies, I wouldn't be surprised if it has a Joye battery and components inside. I have only had Joye 510 batteries and atomizers before. They're no better or worse than the equivalent Boge and SLB products.
As for the lifespan, that's not my conjecture, that's what Joye says in their own literature.

Op: If you do decide eGos might be one of the options you wish to investigate, Joye's current eGo "upgrade" model switches between 3.4 regulated mode and unregulated mode, making the "3.4 issue" moot as far as Joyes are concerned...so you can disregard that part of the above discussion. The price of the new ones i about the same as the old. They should be available in coming weeks at vendors here, but they are currently in stock at Healthcabin, which is in China...reliable vendor but shipping takes longer. Link: [Joyetech] Joye eGo-C Upgrade 1000mAh Battery

Nice to see they've got an "upgrade" you can buy so they'll perform as well as a stock kGo or e-Power.

 

[X P3 Flight Engineer]

Nice to see they've got an "upgrade" you can buy so they'll perform as well as a stock kGo or e-Power.

Actually, the latest "upgrade" is the Joye eGo Twist and will give 4.8 volts in the $20 - $30 price range.

Edit: Price includes battery!

 

[sailorman]

Very nice post, Sebbas, and I agree with virtually all of it.
At the risk of sounding fanboyish, I do take a slight exception to this statement.

.....
As for my impressions of particular brands:
The Silver Bullet seems ok, but unremarkable.

The SB may seem unremarkable. It's not flashy or ultra high-tech. It's not a VV. Although it doesn't have a lifetime warranty, Altsmoke could easily give it one if they wanted to employ that marketing angle. As it is, they rely on word-of-mouth about one of the very first truly great mods. So, they don't really need to offer a lifetime warranty.

What's remarkable about the SB is it's simplicity of design, it's build quality, it's reliability and, especially, it's durability.
I have a BB. The BB is a scaled-down version of the SB and, due to it's raised fire button, is arguably less durable than the SB. In your list of PVs, I don't believe any of them could match the durability of the BB or the SB.

I have owned my BB for 2 years. During that time, it was my near exclusive vaping device for over 18 months and I chain-vape. The switch is rated for 1 million cycles and I estimate I have put at least 350,000 cycles on mine. It's not a $5 horn switch. It is a commercial grade, vandal resistant, high cycle switch of the type used in public facilities and ATM machines. I have run over my BB with a truck. More than once or twice, I've dropped it onto pavement and concrete from moving vehicles at speeds between 15 and 30mph. It's been dunked in saltwater, on several occasions. It's been dropped in mud, buried in sand and basically subjected to any abuse you can think of that doesn't include fire.

It still works like new. It sure doesn't look new, but it works like new. When I get some energy, I will strip the powdercoat, do some polishing and grinding and it'll look great again.

With all the hysteria about batteries lately, Altsmoke posted pics and video of a SB subjected to a venting battery. They also posted pictures of an SB that was returned to them after a battery event. In short, the only damage sustained to the SB was that the switch was, as designed, displaced about 1/8". Repairs consisted of resetting the switch into the housing. This was despite the fact that the SB would not qualify for approval under the new ECF safety specifications because it lacks gaping slots. The vents are located behind the switch, out of sight and in a position where they don't subject the body to infiltration by debris. The fact that the connector didn't blow out, the body didn't shatter and the switch moved just enough to relieve pressure speaks to the intelligence of the design.

So, the SB is not flashy or blingy. It isn't filled with hi-tech electronics. But I daresay that few other PVs are built as well or are as likely to survive the kind of use and abuse that the SB can. That's what makes it remarkable.

 

[sailorman]

Actually, the latest "upgrade" is the Joye eGo Twist and will give 4.8 volts in the $20 - $30 price range.

Edit: Price includes battery!

That's nice. It'll give you 3.3 to 4.8 unloaded volts, at .2V increments at $30. I can't see how a 4.8V top end even qualifies as a VV. It's more of an "enhanced 7 setting selectable voltage". Of course, like any other e-cig, unless you already have a PV, you're going to need 2 batteries. So 2 Twists will cost you about $15 less than what you would pay CCV for a new version Lavatube with 2 batteries, case, shipping, a $10 DCMC and a charger. And, you won't have to throw it away when the battery dies.

Or, you can get one of the Vari-Tube VV PVs for a few bucks more than a single Twist.

 

[elfstone]

I don't know what he meant, but the "upgraded" eGo is really a KGO. It can be switched to unregulated and starts out at 4.1 V. In fact, this particular one looks quite appealing:

1000 mAh eGo-C ''UPGRADE'' USB Passthrough Battery

You, on the other hand, are talking about the Twist. Still, I vape SR Boges at ~4.5 -4.8 V most of the time, so if it actually kept that voltage under load (anybody metered it??) it could be an amusing toy...

 

[X P3 Flight Engineer]

I don't know what he meant, but the "upgraded" eGo is really a KGO. It can be switched to unregulated and starts out at 4.1 V. In fact, this particular one looks quite appealing:

1000 mAh eGo-C ''UPGRADE'' USB Passthrough Battery

You, on the other hand, are talking about the Twist. Still, I vape SR Boges at ~4.5 -4.8 V most of the time, so if it actually kept that voltage under load (anybody metered it??) it could be an amusing toy...

That is similar to my opinion of it. I am happy with kGo at 4.2 so if this could hold 4.2 for the life of the charge (1000mah) I would be satisfied.

Edit: Yes, there is a video of it being metered and holding the voltage within reasonable limits.

 

[sailorman]

I wonder myself about the loaded voltage. The other "selectable" model I saw metered under load had a severe voltage drop. At 4.8V, the twist can't afford that kind of drop. "Amusing toy" about sums it up. I wouldn't want it as a primary PV. If they sold them in pairs, like an eGo or kGo, for $50-55/kit they might make a good alternative. As it is, they're encroaching on the price of a real VV PV, unless you can get by on one battery.

 

[elfstone]

Just to clarify, we are talking about two things:

1. The "upgraded" eGo-C batteries, which are probably indistinguishable from KGOs

2. The eGo Twist, variable voltage, which sounds pretty good, but I don't know how it really performs. More likely than not, it could be a option not really as a variable voltage, but as a regulated device to use with low resistance cartos in the 4.1-4.2 V range if it holds that output, as X P3 rightly suggests...

 

[sailorman]

That is similar to my opinion of it. I am happy with kGo at 4.2 so if this could hold 4.2 for the life of the charge (1000mah) I would be satisfied.

Edit: Yes, there is a video of it being metered and holding the voltage within reasonable limits.

I'd agree with that, as long as I don't have to rely on it as my only PV, and I don't mind charging overnight. 1000mah doesn't last me all day, even at 3.7V. What do you do when it's charging? If they held 4.2 and cost a little more than 2 kGos, I could recommend it to a newb. Otherwise, "amusing toy".

 

[the_vape_nerd]

I love this post and all your vets out there who are giving your input aren't just helping the OP, but helping me as well.

To the OP I'll say this. Ex-smokers come to the vaping world with a sort of built in budget. Whatever you were spending on real cigs is your operating budget for the month. So here's a little plan I used when I started and which I think will help you out as well. For the first 4 months, give yourself an ok to spend as much money as you were on the real cigs. Try out different PVs, juices, cartos, accessories, etc. Both the eGo and e-power have been heavily recommended to you here. That is a very nice place to start. You'll immediately notice a difference over the gas station models. You may never need to look any further.

After your first four months, figure out how much you actually NEED to keep going per month. This might be the cost of cartomizes an say 90ml of juice. Now compare what you need to keep going to what you used to spend on real cigs. Take half of your savings and put it aside for your vaping WANTS. I've been doing this a while now and am about to purchase a pro vari or similar and am still saving lots of money.

 

[sailorman]

Just to clarify, we are talking about two things:

1. The "upgraded" eGo-C batteries, which are probably indistinguishable from KGOs

2. The eGo Twist, variable voltage, which sounds pretty good, but I don't know how it really performs. More likely than not, it could be a option not really as a variable voltage, but as a regulated device to use with low resistance cartos in the 4.1-4.2 V range if it holds that output, as X P3 rightly suggests...

Yep, two things. I'm glad to hear of the "upgraded" eGo-C batteries. Now, if they didnt charge a lot more for the silly C thing, and the eGo name, they'd be on par with the kGo.

The Twist, OTOH, is a pretty severe compromise as a pseudo-VV.

 

[elfstone]

I'm thinking more and more that a great kit would be something with one eGo-C upgraded battery, one battery-passthrough, NO -C tankomizer and a pack of Boge LR cartos. That would be the absolute best ever kit if it could be sold under $60...

 

[X P3 Flight Engineer]

You, on the other hand, are talking about the Twist. Still, I vape SR Boges at ~4.5 -4.8 V most of the time, so if it actually kept that voltage under load (anybody metered it??) it could be an amusing toy...

I found a link to a voltage under load test done by cozzicon. I think he does know what he's doing and has the equipment to work with. I thank him!

eGo-C Twist: Engineering Sample/Basic Volt Test - YouTube

Edit: The meter is at 4:30 on the video

 

[FsckCigs]

The Firefly performs just like any 3.4V ego. It's not a matter of being a Joye or not. It puts out what it's supposed to put out and the voltage is regulated at 3.4V, just like the Joye ego. In fact, the build quality seems better than the Joye, but maybe that's because it's all stainless steel. A the very least, it's as good or better than the Joye version. Since Joye also licenses it's batteries and electronics to numerous other companies, I wouldn't be surprised if it has a Joye battery and components inside. I have only had Joye 510 batteries and atomizers before. They're no better or worse than the equivalent Boge and SLB products.
As for the lifespan, that's not my conjecture, that's what Joye says in their own literature.

.

Allrighty, gonna wind this topic down, as it seems OP is not leaning towards eGos at this time anyway. I would mention, however, that it's not at all written in stone that any and all manufacturers PWM batts would perform the same at the same claimed rating...the recent Vmax flap, as one example, makes that clear. Another example would be eVo vs SVO, both of which have the exact same rated voltage settings (and might even read around the same on an averaging meter) but which perform noticeably differently. To assume that Fireflys and Joyes perform exactly the same is erroneous, imo...and in actuality, you are basing your negative assessment of every Joye in existence solely on that assumption. What if you got a bum set of Fireflys? At the least i'd think either a side-by-side comparison on an oscilloscope would be warranted before making such an assessment...or failing that, at the very least...actual personal experience? Frankly, your description of the poor performance of your batts does not at all parallel my own experience with the Joyes i've owned, and i'm not the only one who consistently gets completely satisfactory results from them...others in this thread have related the same, as have respected reviewers. Thus, i'm not convinced that your Fireflys perform the same as Joyes do.

I get that you don't like eGos conceptually, and that's fine. They don't work for you, and you don't like the form factor. But they do work for a lot of experienced vapers, myself included, that's something which is not disputable, at all. A word about lifespan: i'll say again that mine are all well over the 6 months you keep referring to and are still going strong. Perhaps others will relate their own experiences. But even if mine died today, for me the utility i've gotten from them has already been worth the few bucks they cost. It's not like they're expensive...and utility needs to be factored into any cost analysis. If i was using e-power, given my vaping profile, one would not be enough to suit my needs..i'd need at least two, and two of them still would not provide the utility i am deriving from my current gear.

Nice to see they've got an "upgrade" you can buy so they'll perform as well as a stock kGo or e-Power.

Heh, "upgrade" is just a name to distinguish it from the older version. If one buys them from the start, as OP would (which, as you'll recall, is our reference timepoint for the purposes of this discussion) they're simply "Joye eGo batts". I do agree with you though, that they'll perform "just as good as Kgo or e-power"...and to me the ability to switch modes, and particularly the fact that they come in the USB version, makes them far better than either of those, to me.


OP: to clarify something in your above post, as a PV the eGo is not at all proprietary (it's only a proprietary system if used with the eGo tanks...which, as i mentioned previously, i wouldn't personally recommend). Ego has 510 threading and is compatible with all 510 cartos and atomizers. EGo threading also has an additional supportive larger thread which is used on what i would call eGo format cartos etc...of which many exist. Thus, the eGo as PV is actually MORE flexible than a pv which has only-510 threads and often people who own 510-threaded PVs end up using eGo adapters so they can take advantage of the eGo-threaded gear too.

I suspect it seems i'm pushing the idea of the Joyes, but i'm really not...just clearing up what sounded like a bit of a misconception that 510 stuff doesn't work on eGo batts...when in actuality 510 stuff works very well on the batts.

Whatever you end up going with, I think that you will eventually find SOMETHING that works for you, and it doesn't matter what that ends up being, it only matters that it be SOMETHING....with the "works for you" part being the most important.

Again, wish you the best in your quest!

 

[FsckCigs]

A few other thoughts which occurred to me, Sebbas:

No matter what PV you end up deciding upon, none have a 100% non-failure rate (though i agree with Sailor regarding the toughness of the SB, it'd be close to the top of the "least likely to fail" list)....so you'd be well advised to consider securing a backup. Fortunately, these days there are scads of reasonably-priced PVs/APVs, buying one (or more) won't break the bank, and doing so has the added bonus of scratching the ol' gearlust itch that so many of us are stricken by . Once you've chosen your main PV, you'll probably find that there exist similar-but-cheaper models which use the same batteries, EG: Silver Bullet/Smoktech Bolt.

Also, since you are considering VV APVs...the Buzz Pro and Infinity Pro from
Notcigs might be of interest to you as well. They come in at a lower price point than the Darwin/Provari you mentioned, have very good reliability track records, and like Darwin/Provari they can be repaired by their U.S.-based manufacturers if something goes wrong. Not sure that repair is even an option with something like a Lavatube, PVs of similar origin seem to be widely regarded as "done" when they fail (maybe some who's succesfully had one repaired could comment?). Buzz/Infinity have a nice flexibility-increasing feature in that you can change their compatabily simply by changing their top caps..so if you eventually wish to try threadings other than 510 (like 801, 901, 808) you can easily do so. Nice, imo!