Consumer Product Safety Commission & vaping batteries regulation

[retired1]

So we do (learn the distinction) in this community.

Only if you take the time to look things up. Not all vapers are going to be tech savvy, nor are they going to take the time to try to research anything. There are going to be countless individuals who will hear through the grapevine or local news source that e-cigarettes are being used to quit smoking. Or they'll see something at a local convenience store.

If that product doesn't work as advertised (whether it be leaking, quits working, goes up in a puff of smoke, etc.), they're going to automatically assume that the products are junk and not even know there's a whole plethora of products out there.

Again, ECF represents a tiny majority of the estimated 9 million vapers in the US. Vapers, as a whole, aren't as educated as one might think.

 

[mikepetro]

I am open to turning over "batteries" to the CPSC for two reason:

1. It separates batteries from vaping, we really need to separate the two. Virtually every "sensational" incident has been due to the uncontrolled release of energy stored in the battery.
   
2. It is a problem. The very fact that these incidents are occurring is testament to that fact. We, within the vaping community, have NOT solved that problem except at the "hobbyist" level.

Lets face it, we are using raw cells that never were intended to be used by end consumers. Hence why so many of them, even the big guys like Samsung and Sony, are not labeled very well. 18650s, and lipos, were intended to be used in "Battery Packs" where safety features would be part of the pack design. With the exception of the flashlight industry, most raw cells are used in a pack of some sort, and even those fail if poorly designed.

I agree that most of what we see is abuse/misuse do to lack of education. Still, the technology has inherent dangers even when not abused, it is a technology that can go into thermal runaway. Dendrites can form with age/cycles creating an internal short, manufacturing defects also happen. Either of which can result in a sensational Youtube video of a vaper getting maimed through no apparent fault of their own.

Sony, the maker of the lithium-ion cells in question, points out that on rare occasion microscopic metal particles may come into contact with other parts of the battery cell, leading to a short circuit within the cell.

Battery manufacturers strive to minimize the presence of such particles; however, complex assembly techniques make the elimination of all metallic dust a challenge.

A dendrite in a Li-ion battery, getting longer with every charge.

I agree that education is "one" solution, but it is not "the" solution. Vaping uses batteries like water. We put more cycles on a battery than most other end uses. We also push the limits of our batteries, in quest of a better vape. Consequently our exposure is higher than, say, a flashlight. Couple this with non-educated smokers trying to quit, and you are putting a lot of energy in the hands of the uninitiated. Remember, most of here are hobbyist, and we intentionally chose to educate ourselves, we invested the time and resources into learning how to use our Mechs and Lipo mods as safely as possible. The average smoker buying some cheap Chinese knockoff has no clue about any of this stuff, and doesnt even know enough to ask. They dont even know they should be seeking education.

Anyway, what we are doing today isnt working. It was fine when vaping was a boutique industry, the industry reacted as it learned. But now that it is mass-market, consumer ignorance is really being highlighted and it is obvious that opportunistic manufacturers exist that will prey on that ignorance.


Footnote:
I think the real answer is in inherently safer technologies, like the solid electrolyte one you highlighted in another thread. Alas, these technologies are still a few years off.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Only if you take the time to look things up. Not all vapers are going to be tech savvy, nor are they going to take the time to try to research anything. There are going to be countless individuals who will hear through the grapevine or local news source that e-cigarettes are being used to quit smoking. Or they'll see something at a local convenience store.

If that product doesn't work as advertised (whether it be leaking, quits working, goes up in a puff of smoke, etc.), they're going to automatically assume that the products are junk and not even know there's a whole plethora of products out there.

Again, ECF represents a tiny majority of the estimated 9 million vapers in the US. Vapers, as a whole, aren't as educated as one might think.

Don't dispute that. But the public is not ignorant of what real vaping is anymore. Almost everyone knows someone who knows a practical vaper. And the cigalike crashed and burn despite all the $$$ thrown at it. I think the numbers are greatly understated even the excellent surveys on ECF. Also, interestingly, I do survey many folks from around the country and abroad who travel to S FL and ask them why they think vaping receives such a beat down. Almost invariably they offer…the politics and money.

That's a precursor ret to my follow up question, btw…Who/how do you know?

Good luck.

 

[mikepetro]

Don't dispute that. But the public is not ignorant of what real vaping is anymore. Almost everyone knows someone who knows a practical vaper. And the cigalike crashed and burn despite all the $$$ thrown at it. I think the numbers are greatly understated even the excellent surveys on ECF. Also, interestingly, I do survey many folks from around the country and abroad who travel to S FL and ask them why they think vaping receives such a beat down. Almost invariably they offer…the politics and money.

That's a precursor ret to my follow up question, btw…Who/how do you know?

Good luck.

I hear you, but I have to disagree about public awareness. The first hand experience of "Ernie" the retiree who took up vaping is a good example. Most people I talk to dont have much of a clue about the battery side of vaping, unless they are either tech savvy or already a vaper.

Heck, we deployed 18650 flashlights here at work. Folks look at me like I am wearing a tinfoil hat when I try to tell them about being careful with the batteries. Mechanics are just tossing their spare bats loose into their toolbox, I cringe........ Even the Electricians had a surprised look when I told them how much energy could be released on my 60C 5000mAh lipo if shorted.

 

[retired1]

But the public is not ignorant of what real vaping is anymore. Almost everyone knows someone who knows a practical vaper. And the cigalike crashed and burn despite all the $$$ thrown at it.

Cigalikes are alive and well and I see countless individuals using them. They're the predominant item at convenience stores and folks are buying them like crazy. This is also why products like JUUL are primarily sold in convenience stores. Larger market. Exponentially larger than what you'd see in a vape shop.

Vaping is vaping, whether you use a cigalike or 500 dollar limited edition mod. Saying someone who uses a cigalike isn't a "real vaper" does a HUGE disservice to vaping as a whole.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I am open to turning over "batteries" to the CPSC…I think the real answer is in inherently safer technologies, like the solid electrolyte one you highlighted in another thread. Alas, these technologies are still a few years off.

Good post and thanks for ack. I did. And the solution should not be that far away. Highlighted this as it wasn't being discussed. Not here. Not much anywhere.

When I talk about education here I refer to gov's obligation to partake in it. NOT just our role as informed consumers.

We should all be sick and tired of government meddling. Of parsing the meal even before we've sat at the table.

A few years off and government will have seized the baton.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Cigalikes are alive and well and I see countless individuals using them. They're the predominant item at convenience stores and folks are buying them like crazy. This is also why products like JUUL are primarily sold in convenience stores. Larger market. Exponentially larger than what you'd see in a vape shop.

Vaping is vaping, whether you use a cigalike or 500 dollar limited edition mod.

Saying someone who uses a cigalike isn't a "real vaper" does a HUGE disservice to vaping as a whole.

Who would say such a thing? I suggested and emphasized the importance of resellers understanding the technology and the needs of vapers. If gas stations fit that bill then they indeed own the largest share of the market.

No cigalike brand or form factor, as improved as some have become, resembles what we had as smokers. Unless you want to constrain the definition to the harsh result one could squeeze out of a contemporary cig in the 5 min span of a harried smoke break. Then maybe some emulations win. Mostly they are reminiscent with some imagination. Applaud us for the latter, I'd say.

But I get your point. Not bashing anybody. I quit on a Blu.

Good luck.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I hear you, but I have to disagree about public awareness. The first hand experience of "Ernie" the retiree who took up vaping is a good example. Most people I talk to dont have much of a clue about the battery side of vaping, unless they are either tech savvy or already a vaper…Folks look at me like I am wearing a tinfoil hat when I try to tell them about being careful with the batteries.

Whatcha talkin' bout Willis?

Maybe I am just a small footnote advocate for the moderate knowledgeably controlled vape for new vapers, and merely here. I'm sure there may be some mature cloud chucker shock jocks (or those who think they are). I know, I vape with a few. I've knocked their watt's down a quarter peg or more with a little tech. But they're not the norm. Most of the folks I've helped quit in three years (the #'s not humble) are under 35. Guess what, they're mostly very moderate vapers in the 17-25W range. Consistent with survey results here and elsewhere.

Yes, I find 'em mostly raw. No internet awareness. No knowledge or interest in ECF, etc. Just a genuine desire to quit. And I get 'em where I am inside of a couple of months with the right tools. Some rebuild. Some don't. But they learn what a watt is first. Or they don't get the best. Savvy?

The hardest one's to turn around and put in control of their vape are the Ernie's, I agree. Once stricken with that big cloud and after-market shredded wheat coil dependency they're hazed (not hammerin, I do it myself). But it's not impossible once you can demonstrate a genuine Jack Daniels emulation or authentic Cuban to their satisfaction (can you say strawberry!???) to name some faves…to say, this is how you get there. So it just takes a bit longer but they come around.

How? Pretty straight up. Couple'a weeks vapin from their targeted max comfort zone @4.2v down thru 3.7 and they have a pretty good idea what juice types they like and at what temp. By then a good share want to rebuild (for mech or box). And it's all done on a mod pwr simple mech. No distractions, focused.

What's made this lifestyle flourish has been the social aspects of vaping and community? Lose that, the collaborative emphasis epitomized and afforded by the juice salon biz model, succumb to treatment of our industry and activity as a gas station commodity, the drive-through quick check and we're done. It's just never been about getting over. And that's totally lost on the bureaucrats. Always will be.

My peace.

Good luck.

 

[mikepetro]

We have one vape shop within 45 miles, and I had to show them how to reassemble a Russian 91%. Other than that, just a few Cigarette shops that have some juice, and Blu stuff. All of the gas stations and supermarkets have cigalikes and pods though.

So I dont get much of the social aspect, except online. While I have helped several to quit, it was mainly by example, they came to me when they were interested.

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder how All this in this thread is Perceived by an Outsider looking in?

 

[mikepetro]

I wonder how All this in this thread is Perceived by an Outsider looking in?

Probably depends on their bias for/against vaping. The whole battery issue, while very much an issue, is juicy fodder for those against vaping. Its one of very few things they can easily demonstrate that potentially causes harm. They just point to all the Youtube videos and press articles where Johnny's pants are on fire and say "See... just look at how dangerous it is"........

I see it as a ..... in the armor of vaping.

 

[zoiDman]

Probably depends on their bias for/against vaping. The whole battery issue, while very much an issue, is juicy fodder for those against vaping. Its one of very few things they can easily demonstrate that potentially causes harm. They just point to all the Youtube videos and press articles where Johnny's pants are on fire and say "See... just look at how dangerous it is"........

I see it as a ..... in the armor of vaping.

I was thinking More for the Vast Majority of the Population that Don't have a Bias?

Because people with a Bias are just that... Biased. I just Wonder what the Average Joe Blow on the street Thinks? Or how compelling some of the things said here would Resonate with him?

When there seemed to be a Hover Board bursting into Flames every other day, I remember my Neighbor saying that the Government should step in.

And He isn't a Hover Board user. Or really gives a Darn if you use one or Not.

 

[retired1]

And the solution should not be that far away.

It probably is that far away. It took the inventor of the Lithium Ion battery 11 years to see fruition on the market.

 

[mikepetro]

I was thinking More for the Vast Majority of the Population that Don't have a Bias?

Because people with a Bias are just that... Biased. I just Wonder what the Average Joe Blow on the street Thinks? Or how compelling some of the things said here would Resonate with him?

When there seemed to be a Hover Board bursting into Flames every other day, I remember my Neighbor saying that the Government should step in.

And He isn't a Hover Board user. Or really gives a Darn if you use one or Not.

And they did, with the CPSC coordinating it.

U.S. government leads recall of 500,000 hoverboards

 

[zoiDman]

And they did, with the CPSC coordinating it.

U.S. government leads recall of 500,000 hoverboards

Yes... Yes they Did.

And Many saw this as a Good Thing.

 

[mikepetro]

Yes... Yes they Did.

And Many saw this as a Good Thing.

And I would agree.

"Hold manufacturers to a reasonable standard of safety."

The problem with that statement as it relates to vaping, is that the FDA etc are taking it so far past simple device safety. They are raising questions that it would take years of scientific research to prove or disprove.

Thats why I think separating the battery issue from the "vape" issue would be great for all of us.

 

[zoiDman]

And I would agree.

"Hold manufacturers to a reasonable standard of safety."

The problem with that statement as it relates to vaping, is that the FDA etc are taking it so far past simple device safety. They are raising questions that it would take years of scientific research to prove or disprove.

Thats why I think separating the battery issue from the "vape" issue would be great for all of us.

The is No Question that the previous FDA(s) were applying Over-Reach to enact a de facto Ban based on agenda. The Question becomes is the CPSC operating with the same Agenda?

Or are they Quasi Agenda Neutral? And more concern with just Battery Safety?

Because when you show the Average, Non-Biased, person something like this...

E-Cigarette Explosions: Comprehensive List - eCig One

... they probably would think that Something should be done. Be it Justified or Non-Justified.

 

[Lessifer]

My main concern with this is, for the manufacturers who don't currently label their batteries for resale, which would be all of the 18650's we use for the most part, who don't intend for their batteries to be used individually outside of battery packs, which is why they don't label them that way... Are they going to start labeling them, or are they going to say "We don't intend for our products to be used outside of battery packs(like they've already said)" and then those batteries will no longer be available to us, because the CPSC has determined that they cannot be sold individually, because they aren't properly labeled.

 

[zoiDman]

My main concern with this is, for the manufacturers who don't currently label their batteries for resale, which would be all of the 18650's we use for the most part, who don't intend for their batteries to be used individually outside of battery packs, which is why they don't label them that way... Are they going to start labeling them, or are they going to say "We don't intend for our products to be used outside of battery packs(like they've already said)" and then those batteries will no longer be available to us, because the CPSC has determined that they cannot be sold individually, because they aren't properly labeled.

Is Labeling of 18650 Batteries a CPSC Requirement?

 

[Lessifer]

Is Labeling of 18650 Batteries a CPSC Requirement?

I haven't seen what their requirements might be, but when people talk about the misrepresentation of specs on batteries currently on the market, I assume they're talking about the specs printed on the battery.