D/AP concerns. Vocal minority?

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skoony

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For exaample I take a cup of distilled water measure the ppm its 0, if I add one drop of vinegar its now 1000ppm. So that one drop of vinegar is 1000 times more parts than the water.. 100 times is so low a figure I am sorry you are confused there but ya are...

What? Have you any clue?
There is 1000 times more ppm than the 0ppm water.
0ppm distilled water absolutely 0ppm.
What do you not get..
There is no electrical conductivity in the water, 0,
when you add that one drop of vinegar now the water has an electrical characteristic that is measured at 1000ppm.. Just stop.
Who is talking electrical conductivity? Read your original post above. It says if you add a drop
of vinegar to a cup of water it adds 1000 time more vinegar than there is water. that would
mean 1000 parts of water for every million parts of the total mix.
regards
mike
 

Racehorse

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D/AP is an issue, but not for everyone.
It should be listed on the bottle so one can make an informed decision on whether to vape it or not.
And any vendor who lies about it should not be in business.
Me? I think it is tasty and vape it.

You hit nail on head. Doesn't matter if people like it or don't like it, they have a right as consumers to know if it is in the product they are purchasing, if they ask.

Since there is a test available to know this, it should be easy to market eliquid in a non-deceptive manner.

For those who have not tested, the correct answer to "is there AP or DA in your ejuice" would be "we don't know, we haven't tested."

Then, the consumer can decide whether to buy or not. The free market assumes that people are free to make decisions. It is hard to make decisions when being lied to, however. :)

This is exactly what Big Tobacco ran afoul, not disclosing the 5,000 extra chemicals they placed in cigarettes. Now that we know, the consumer is free to accept those chemicals when they purchase, or not purchase and seek some other means of consumption.

Disclosure should be a given. It is simple enough.
 

Visus

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Who is talking electrical conductivity? Read your original post above. It says if you add a drop
of vinegar to a cup of water it adds 1000 time more vinegar than there is water. that would
mean 1000 parts of water for every million parts of the total mix.
regards
mike
Stop hi jacking the thread this not pertinent to this thread in any way..

FQhDWqi.jpg


I tried to help you to understand how ppm is measured electrically and why there now is 1000 times more parts of vinegar than water. There is no more water it is now a very diluted vinegar.. Wow !!
 

mattiem

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Sadly, the vocal minority will win in the end and those of us that vape and enjoy our creamy, yummy e-liquid be darned. I hope the ones that are shouting the loudest are proud of themselves when they get their way and nothing is left but tobacco and menthol. Not pointing at anyone in particular. This discussion has been going on ever since someone came across a lawsuit by someone that abused microwave popcorn and damaged his lungs. There was still no real proof that the popcorn caused his problem but folks do sue and win frivolous lawsuits everyday.

Perfect examples of how it CAN and WILL happen. We can no longer buy that yummy artificial flavor buttered microwave popcorn. First box of the new and improved MW popcorn-- I just assumed that they had goofed and failed to add the artificial butter that made it so good. Bought another box of it. Nope same thing--new and improved :facepalm:

and now the vocal minority has decided that the imitation bread spread (country crock) that I had used and loved for more years than I am willing to admit needed to be new and approved. Now it is just a new and improved rancid mess.

This is just 2 examples that have personally affected me. I am sure there are hundreds more.

A small group can make a difference and can decide what they think is best for everyone. Wouldn't it be great if those that think they know what is best for others would just stick to what is best for them and leave others to make up their own mind as to what is best for them. I know that is a pipe dream in the busybody world we find ourselves living in but one can still wish.

Now, I do agree that folks do need to know if what they want to avoid is in there, but I think everyone needs to have the chance to decide for themselves. If they choose to ignore what is being discussed here and it turns out that it causes problems then that is on the one that chose to dismiss the discussion. I personally think it is much ado about nothing but that is just my own humble opinion.
 

Hans Wermhat

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6 pages. TLDR. If you want to know what Diacetyl tastes like, get some Capella's V1 Vanilla Custard flavoring. Add 10% to an unflavored base. That creamy, yummy, buttery goodness that coats your tongue is it. It IS a very easily discernible flavor once you know what it is. If you mix that same flavor at 20% and vape 25 - 30 ml of it a day, one study I saw (but did not bookmark and can't find again to cite it) claims you are vaping more than you would get from a pack of cigs. Like 5 Pawns levels. The FDA actually has determined what it considers dangerous levels and this exceeds it.
 
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skoony

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You hit nail on head. Doesn't matter if people like it or don't like it, they have a right as consumers to know if it is in the product they are purchasing, if they ask.

Since there is a test available to know this, it should be easy to market eliquid in a non-deceptive manner.

I am not aware of any right as a consumer that allows one to make any such demands other
than being told there's PG/VG, and flavorings and nicotine if added.
So not testing is deceptive in and of itself? Well then there a lot of vendors pulling
the wool over are eyes. Exactly whom is being deceitful? The vendors or, those
pointing the fingers?
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

Moonbogg

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D/AP is known to damage lungs and people shouldn't vape it. Good thing we can make juice without it. Also, to the OP, this is not a vocal minority at all. Nearly every health care professional or expert who is involved with e-cig research has identified D/AP as a health risk given the links to irreversible lung damage.
The only people who don't say anything about it are those who simple don't know or don't care about their lungs or the lungs of others. I ignore such people and would advise you to not take their advice. Don't vape diketones. They are dangerous.
 

Racehorse

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I am not aware of any right as a consumer that allows one to make any such demands other than being told there's PG/VG, and flavorings and nicotine if added.

I have read the consumer protection laws and know what rights are granted to me under the law.

I guess interpretation of those laws is what inspires people bring lawsuits in a court of law.

Soon, we will see how one such failure to disclose turns out.

My opinion or your opinion on the laws, esp. if neither of us is an expert on the interpretation of such, are pretty much just the stuff that internet posts on forums are made of. ;)
 
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skoony

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D/AP is known to damage lungs and people shouldn't vape it. Good thing we can make juice without it. Also, to the OP, this is not a vocal minority at all. Nearly every health care professional or expert who is involved with e-cig research has identified D/AP as a health risk given the links to irreversible lung damage.
The only people who don't say anything about it are those who simple don't know or don't care about their lungs or the lungs of others. I ignore such people and would advise you to not take their advice. Don't vape diketones. They are dangerous.
All these so-called health professional's all rely on the results of industrial
contamination from raw materials in ambient air. They should know better.
Mike
 
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Visus

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All these so-called health professional's all rely on the results of industrial
contamination from raw materials in ambient air. They should know better.
Mike
No it is you who should know better. Sadly you like to think it doesn't apply to you.

Why even bother posting?

This does not affect anyone who wants to use diacetyl flavorings they will not be taking the FOOD flavorant off the shelves, they will be making vaping specialized flavors that of which are hugely available already.

Just go right ahead and vape whatever you want that is fine. No one will be at fault but yourself in the long run with plenty of your postings to back up what then will be considered your ignorance.. :(

Kids and drug addicts do what you and others are posting assuming no harm to come to them because they half read or find singularities countering good advice.

So you're arguing your solution about something that doesn't affect you at all, you will still have the freedom to vape all the diacetyl you want.
 

Ryedan

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I tried to help you to understand how ppm is measured electrically and why there now is 1000 times more parts of vinegar than water.

I think I understand what you're trying to say Visus. If I do understand correctly, you're not expressing it accurately.

When a quantity of vinegar is added to distilled water so there is a vinegar concentration of 1,000 ppm vinegar there is not 1,000 times more vinegar than water. It is actually 1,000 parts vinegar to 999,000 parts water.

With the distilled water there is zero ppm of vinegar in it. 1,000 times zero vinegar is still zero vinegar :)

There is no more water it is now a very diluted vinegar.. Wow !!

The water that the vinegar was added to is still there in solution. There is no chemical reaction that changes the molecules.

Or maybe I just don't get what you're trying to say, it has happened before :rolleyes:
 

skoony

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No it is you who should know better. Sadly you like to think it doesn't apply to you.

Why even bother posting?

This does not affect anyone who wants to use diacetyl flavorings they will not be taking the FOOD flavorant off the shelves, they will be making vaping specialized flavors that of which are hugely available already.

Just go right ahead and vape whatever you want that is fine. No one will be at fault but yourself in the long run with plenty of your postings to back up what then will be considered your ignorance.. :(

Kids and drug addicts do what you and others are posting assuming no harm to come to them because they half read or find singularities countering good advice.

So you're arguing your solution about something that doesn't affect you at all, you will still have the freedom to vape all the diacetyl you want.
What doesn't apply to me? It certainly does apply to me.
Excuse me if I respond to issues that directly affect me.
I will continue to do so.
Mike
 

Mazinny

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Okay, so let's say for sake of discussion that a pack of smokes has 6500 micrograms, and (just for sake of making a point) that an eLiquid exists where 1ml equals 7000 micrograms.

Person smokes a pack a day for 25 years, and has moderate health issues, but nothing serious with lungs. Then vapes for 5 years at 1 ml a day.

Are we to believe there is, even in this hypothetical, a strong likelihood that this person will encounter lung issues? And that this is solely attributable to inhaling diketones?

If yes, then would it be fair to say that if smokes could get diketones out of their product, that smoking would be safer, perhaps causing zero lung issues in all users? Cause that really really really appears to be the argument that is put forth. And I had to go with hypotheticals (on the vaping side) that don't really exist, or if they do, are the exception to some fairly established rules, even by all participants in this thread.

Even in the workplace exposure examples, that are only information we have for actual harm, the likelihood of DA being deemed a causal factor is 1 in a thousand chance. Yet, some in vaping community are suggesting that having DA in eLiquid equals very strong chance that ALL vapers would be harmed (lung problems) and that would be (solely) attributable to the presence of DA.

Let's say that 1 in a thousand people that inhale nicotine have some very significant, perhaps even lethal malady that happens to them. They are only inhaling 1.2% nic at 1 ml a day. But science determines their malady is caused by them inhaling nicotine for say 3 months straight. So, even if 999 other people who inhale similar amount are not affected, shouldn't we be equally worried (along lines of DA concerns) that this is a very harmful ingredient in eLiquid and that it ought to be removed? That the whole industry could get shut down if we don't remove it? Cause clearly many vapers, who vape non-nic liquid, are establishing that this is not necessary ingredient in eLiquid. Therefore, why would anyone suggest that we need to have it in there?

Me, I hope nic is sold in eLiquid indefinitely, as an option to entire consumer base, and that DA laced liquids are an option to that same base, forever and ever. And that we realize 30 years from now (or 3 days from now, or even 300 years from now) that magically only .1% of the population seems impacted by this thing that a vocal minority was very concerned about in 2015.

ETA: That after reading Dr. F.'s post, it must be noted that removing nic from eLiquid is the right thing, because it is a compound that may cause harm. Hope we can all get aboard that train. /sarcasm
I only provided the additional facts to provide some context to the statement @Elizabeth Baldwin posted. You are free to reach your own conclusions and set your own risk threshold and/or advise others on the potential risk of diketones and provide hypotheticals and arrive at estimates of risk etc ... I am not really interested in debating the relative risks of diketones in vaping any more, nor do i claim to have arrived at any conclusions or know what the best course of action is for other consumers.
 
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Visus

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What doesn't apply to me? It certainly does apply to me.
Excuse me if I respond to issues that directly affect me.
I will continue to do so.
Mike
It does not apply to you, we can easily see you like to half read. They will not stop manufacturing Food flavorants that contain diacetyl its 100% safe to eat they will extend their offerings and produce flavors that are considered vape safe flavors that do not have diacetyl or AP. You can buy all the diacetyl flavors that you foolishly are so inclined to defend ignorantly when they will still exist. It does not affect any of you who are so inclined to risk your health..

So you just like to stir the pot is all that any of your posts contain. It 100% does not affect you..

So by posting you want everyone to vape diacetyl and ap because you assume it to be safe? :censored: so if there is any issue you won't be alone, is that it? :lol: No we who understand common sense won't be taking that route and vaping being the pleasure/relief it is, it, is not a burden at all.
 

Visus

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This is how a responsible company list their ingredients with full disclosure.. They do not say you cannot buy anywhere on the page. They let you make your own decision. No one is taking your "freedom of choice" away..
If you call them they will extend the information on their page and offer absolutely 100% full disclosure of every ingredient in their flavors. Simple and does not affect any of you who assume no hazard from diketones.. Buy all the diacetyl/AP you want...

The gov has already set guidelines on how much diacetyl is safe for resell in food items.. We truly need this guideline to be 0% in vaping but that takes taxes and your kind make them have to tax us because you cannot figure it out yourself. Health issues can become a pariah on the system or as a benefit to big pharma-- so in strategist you are absolutely working/posting for that cause..

Capella etc still sells their original V1 formulations containing diacetyl right along with their new and improved V2 diacetyl free vaping flavors..
Etc etc etc

Once again.. Just stop...

Check it out..

Perfumers Apprentice - Chocolate & Vanilla Flavors
 

Jman8

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I only provided the additional facts to provide some context to the statement @Elizabeth Baldwin posted. You are free to reach your own conclusions and set your own risk threshold and/or advise others on the potential risk of diketones and provide hypotheticals and arrive at estimates of risk etc ... I am not really interested in debating the relative risks of diketones in vaping any more, nor do i claim to have arrived at any conclusions or know what the best course of action is for other consumers.

I wasn't asking for a debate. I was just providing additional facts based on the information / suppositions you provided.
 

Jman8

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It does not apply to you, we can easily see you like to half read. They will not stop manufacturing Food flavorants that contain diacetyl its 100% safe to eat they will extend their offerings and produce flavors that are considered vape safe flavors that do not have diacetyl or AP. You can buy all the diacetyl flavors that you foolishly are so inclined to defend ignorantly when they will still exist. It does not affect any of you who are so inclined to risk your health..

So you just like to stir the pot is all that any of your posts contain. It 100% does not affect you..

So by posting you want everyone to vape diacetyl and ap because you assume it to be safe? :censored: so if there is any issue you won't be alone, is that it? :lol: No we who understand common sense won't be taking that route and vaping being the pleasure/relief it is, it, is not a burden at all.

Where are you getting this information from?
 

Visus

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Where are you getting this information from?
Call them and ask it's easy enough..
Most companies will tell you they do not offer any flavors for vaping because they know they have diketones etc.
You vape them at your own risk and they are not liable for any health issues..o_O

I posted Capella has already formulated a few without diketones and TPA responds to demand and already understood their/our goals of offering flavorings for vaping without diketones. TPA has post about it on their site..

Flavour arts has devoted almost 100% of their flavors to vaping and being diketone and ap free.

The previous video I posted she offers flavors and e joos diketone free and made safer for vaping. She even tells us why diacetyl is in synthesized flavors and that it is an added product not being there until it is added. She custom ordered flavors from her flavor companies with it taken out. Some flavors it is impossible to take out..

TPA does not make their flavors for vaping but offer them with full disclosure, they even tell ya with some flavors its an impossible task to remove the diacetyl because it forms naturally. "***Diacetyl can be found naturally in certain fruit extracts, so there is also the potential for trace amounts to be found in some natural extracts. The potential may be less for concentrated flavors not made with natural extracts."

Heres a lot of information.. But you probably won't watch it..o_O

 

Visus

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Thanks. Was wondering if it was speculation or some sort of factual point.

Good to know it is just speculation.
I can see you also read what you want, half read and post spam jibberish.
You people are sad and hilarious..
latest

Woot ignore function I just found it :spam:..
Rappers here in Chicago have deemed ya F ...... you get red bottom.. :smokie:
 
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