Did they sell me freebase nic instead of nic salt?

[TripleTriple]

Hi all, been a while since ive been in this forum.. Quit smoking for two years, then life got a bit stressful and slipped back to analogue..

So heres the issue. I always had trouble MTL vaping freebase nic.. Bought a bottle of 1000mg freebase a while back, all my supplies and had a hard time switching back to vape because id always cough with MTL hits, even as low as 1mg / ml juice.

So I read up on nic salt one day recently, went and got 65mg PG nic for my base, mixed with all VG. I was able to tolerate 12mg via MTL vaping.

I still had a bit of discomfort and dropped to 6mg juice and was having no issue aside from having to vape too often to get my fix.

I thought perhaps if I got the 65mg nic salt in vg and cut out more pg, then 12mg would be easier. I find pg makes me cough, and my body doesnt like it much..

So today I go back to the vendor (a large well known supplier) who are a bit of a drive and got 120ml of 65mg / ml in VG. I get home and mix at 12mg and took my first hit.. FIRE!!! down my throat and into my chest!

After I stopped coughing, I immediately checked my math, no issue there. I then mixed at 6mg, changed to a new coil, and cough really bad on each inhale? I can feel it burn, and it feels like freebase nic..

I looked at the bottle from a couple of weeks ago which is 65mg in PG and noticed that the new bottle doesnt have that orange color. I can also smell the nic in this VG 65mg where as the 65mg in PG has little to no noticeable scent.

I called the store and told the guy that I think this may be freebase nic and not nic salt, even though the bottle says 'USP SALT NICOTINE'. I explained what happened on the phone, he said to bring it back in.. So I drove the 45mins back to the store... again..

He takes the old bottle, and has a fresh bottle prepared for me. He tells me that nic salt turns orange faster in pg as I look at the new bottle which is yellowish, not that orange color I got when buying the pg version from the same guy..

I get home, mix a batch of 6mg, and boom! More fire in the throat... new coil so its not residule excess nic from the last batch..

So now im sitting here scratching my head. Did they make the same mistake twice? Was the batch of PG 65mg nic salt they sold me two weeks ago heavily oxidized making it orange, less potent and far less than the 12mg I calculated? Or did I just get a second bottle of freebase nic?

Im really confused at this point, and frustrated.. I was down to 2 cigs a day, and this fiasco just landed me a half pack of cigs smoked as I scramble to get some juice prepped...

My juice supplies like flavoring, and base are unchanged. changed the coil in my 18W pockex with the second batch.. Still burns my throat @6mg / ml

And ideas or advice??

Much appreciated,

Triple....

 

[classwife]

Moved to DIY E-Liquid from The Lounge

 

[bombastinator]

Hi all, been a while since ive been in this forum.. Quit smoking for two years, then life got a bit stressful and slipped back to analogue..

So heres the issue. I always had trouble MTL vaping freebase nic.. Bought a bottle of 1000mg freebase a while back

1000(!)mg? The stuff that will kill you in minutes if you get 3drops on your skin? Do you mean 100mg/ml?

, all my supplies and had a hard time switching back to vape because id always cough with MTL hits, even as low as 1mg / ml juice.

what was the VG/PG ratio? Too much PG can do that for some people

So I read up on nic salt one day recently, went and got 65mg PG nic for my base

huh? If you have throat issues with PG why use it at all? Pure VG works fine, though there can be some flavor shift one has to adjust for. If it’s too thick a bit of water can be added

, mixed with all VG. I was able to tolerate 12mg via MTL vaping.

odd. It should have around the same throat hit as 5-6mg/ml unprotonated

I still had a bit of discomfort and dropped to 6mg juice and was having no issue aside from having to vape too often to get my fix.

I thought perhaps if I got the 65mg nic salt in vg and cut out more pg, then 12mg would be easier. I find pg makes me cough, and my body doesnt like it much..

So today I go back to the vendor (a large well known supplier) who are a bit of a drive and got 120ml of 65mg / ml in VG. I get home and mix at 12mg and took my first hit.. FIRE!!! down my throat and into my chest!

that could happen. The thing about “salt” is it’s a marketing term. There’s actually a lot more than one kind and not all of them actually reduce throat hit. A few of them can increase it. The use of the terms “salt” and “ freebase” really annoy me. It’s marketing garbage made to reduce perceived issues with one while increasing it with the other. Their scientists didn’t even use the terms. There’s a lot more than one kind of “salt” nic. Iirc like 8 different ones are common and all called the same thing. The possibles run into the hundreds though. The scientists at JUUL called them protonated and unprotonated.

After I stopped coughing, I immediately checked my math, no issue there. I then mixed at 6mg, changed to a new coil, and cough really bad on each inhale? I can feel it burn, and it feels like freebase nic..

I looked at the bottle from a couple of weeks ago which is 65mg in PG and noticed that the new bottle doesnt have that orange color. I can also smell the nic in this VG 65mg where as the 65mg in PG has little to no noticeable scent.

I called the store and told the guy that I think this may be freebase nic and not nic salt, even though the bottle says 'USP SALT NICOTINE'. I explained what happened on the phone, he said to bring it back in.. So I drove the 45mins back to the store... again..

He takes the old bottle, and has a fresh bottle prepared for me. He tells me that nic salt turns orange faster in pg as I look at the new bottle which is yellowish, not that orange color I got when buying the pg version from the same guy..

straw yellow color and an ash tray smell are signs of degradation in unprotonated nic. It was old.

I get home, mix a batch of 6mg, and boom! More fire in the throat... new coil so its not residule excess nic from the last batch..

So now im sitting here scratching my head. Did they make the same mistake twice? Was the batch of PG 65mg nic salt they sold me two weeks ago heavily oxidized making it orange, less potent and far less than the 12mg I calculated? Or did I just get a second bottle of freebase nic?

Im really confused at this point, and frustrated.. I was down to 2 cigs a day, and this fiasco just landed me a half pack of cigs smoked as I scramble to get some juice prepped...

My juice supplies like flavoring, and base are unchanged. changed the coil in my 18W pockex with the second batch.. Still burns my throat @6mg / ml

And ideas or advice??

Much appreciated,

Triple....

I don’t know about coloring in protonated nic. I won’t touch the stuff myself. JUUL so far as I can tell did no real safety testing of any of the various salt nic types at all. There’s lots of safety data on unprotonated nic left over from the 1960s. Some for n-tartrate from the 70’s but they were testing it in gum and no one tried to inhale it afaik.
I’ve never heard anyone mention color change before. There are so many kinds though. I suspect what you want is n-benzoate. I vaguely recall reading that was the mildest.

 

[TripleTriple]

1000(!)mg? The stuff that will kill you in minutes if you get 3drops on your skin? Do you mean 100mg/ml?

You read it right, 1,000mg/ml special order.. I use extreme caution and a fume hood as the vapors can get to you as well. Though thats what I was using when I quit smoking over a year ago, but it was too harsh, and gave up on vaping..

what was the VG/PG ratio? Too much PG can do that for some people huh? If you have throat issues with PG why use it at all? Pure VG works fine, though there can be some flavor shift one has to adjust for. If it’s too thick a bit of water can be added odd. It should have around the same throat hit as 5-6mg/ml unprotonated that could happen.

Ive tried to eliminate as much pg as possible. My juice is approx 90-95%vg. When I used the slat nic for the first time 2 weeks ago it was 65mg in a pg base. Today I got the same thing but in a vg base and am choking on it at 6mg, where as the pg base at 65mg im fine, which lead me to believe that this isnt salt nic, but from what you're saying, perhaps its just a crappy version?

The thing about “salt” is it’s a marketing term. There’s actually a lot more than one kind and not all of them actually reduce throat hit. A few of them can increase it. The use of the terms “salt” and “ freebase” really annoy me. It’s marketing garbage made to reduce perceived issues with one while increasing it with the other. Their scientists didn’t even use the terms. There’s a lot more than one kind of “salt” nic. Iirc like 8 different ones are common and all called the same thing. The possibles run into the hundreds though. The scientists at JUUL called them protonated and unprotonated. straw yellow color and an ash tray smell are signs of degradation in unprotonated nic. It was old.
I don’t know about coloring in protonated nic. I won’t touch the stuff myself. JUUL so far as I can tell did no real safety testing of any of the various salt nic types at all. There’s lots of safety data on unprotonated nic left over from the 1960s. Some for n-tartrate from the 70’s but they were testing it in gum and no one tried to inhale it afaik.
I’ve never heard anyone mention color change before. There are so many kinds though. I suspect what you want is n-benzoate. I vaguely recall reading that was the mildest.

I got the 65mg PG base from dashvapes and its an orange color, but very smooth on the throat. The 65mg in VG is also from dash and is not orange, rather yellowish and way harsh. Think I just wasted my money and time. Both sold as less harsh alternative when I inquired, but the one in VG base is anything but...

 

[Skwij]

@TripleTriple I'd strongly suggest using https://thebrokevaper.ca for nic supply.Yes, it's online, but very very good.

 

[bombastinator]

You read it right, 1,000mg/ml special order.. I use extreme caution and a fume hood as the vapors can get to you as well. Though thats what I was using when I quit smoking over a year ago, but it was too harsh, and gave up on vaping..

that might be your problem right there. Eek! I’m not sure that was a fair test.

Ive tried to eliminate as much pg as possible. My juice is approx 90-95%vg. When I used the slat nic for the first time 2 weeks ago it was 65mg in a pg base. Today I got the same thing but in a vg base and am choking on it at 6mg, where as the pg base at 65mg im fine, which lead me to believe that this isnt salt nic, but from what you're saying, perhaps its just a crappy version?

it could be crappy unprotonated or crappy “salt”. crappy something anyway. It’s possible unprotonated is just crap for you.

If you’ve got pure unprotonated around making n-benzoate from it is not impossible. It’s not terribly wise either, but since you went with 1000mg/ml nic I’m assuming the wisdom ship sailed long ago.
I’m assuming since you have a fume hood(!) there is other standard chemistry stuff around. If you’ve left it out for a year though it may be pretty degraded. I don’t deal with pure unprotonated nic so I don’t know how fast or far it degrades.

I got the 65mg PG base from dashvapes and its an orange color, but very smooth on the throat.

that orange color may say which acid it’s been reacted with. I don’t know myself

The 65mg in VG is also from dash and is not orange, rather yellowish and way harsh. Think I just wasted my money and time. Both sold as less harsh alternative when I inquired, but the one in VG base is anything but...

 

[stols001]

I don't think anyone can give you a 100% answer, too many variables. A lot of nic vendors will sell you a sample of nic salts (most likely NOT 1,000. mg/ml) but you could try some different types (unflavored) and see if there is one that floats your boat in particular. If so, and yes, if you have the chemistry to do it, you can make your own salts.

Anna

 

[vaper1960]

Please forgive me but are you sure you are mixing it right? Can you tell us the amounts of each ingredient?
Also, have you always used a PockeX or just recently? Have you ever used any other device? I ask because I started vaping with one and even though I liked it, if you don't "prime" the coils and wait after filling, it will have a "scorched" taste. Most important thing is DO NOT get coils from e-bay! It may not like high VG juice. Those coils are tricky. I'm using very similar coils in a Aspire Nautilus X tank (the U-tech coils) and I use 65VG/35PG juice... they like that. I do understand about PG... I can barely tolerate 35% myself, any more bothers my throat. Last thought... when quitting cigs and vaping, it takes awhile to get used to it. I don't really understand why, but you cough at first till you get used to it. Did you have that issue before when you quit cigs? I wouldn't call it a "burning" so much as irritation (the PG) We must be missing something. Nic "salts" are made reacting nic with acid... maybe still has unreacted acid in it? That would certainly burn. Does anyone know if a simple pH test would confirm this?

 

[TripleTriple]

that might be your problem right there. Eek! I’m not sure that was a fair test. it could be crappy unprotonated or crappy “salt”. crappy something anyway. It’s possible unprotonated is just crap for you.

I must be horrible at conveying my thoughts lol. The 1,000mg is not being used here. I had purchased it to make my own 24mg base, but the "freebase nic had me doing small puffs, and was not satisfying enough to quit my 30 year smoking habbit. Im not using that anymore, I switch to 'salt nic' instead.

If you’ve got pure unprotonated around making n-benzoate from it is not impossible. It’s not terribly wise either, but since you went with 1000mg/ml nic I’m assuming the wisdom ship sailed long ago.
I’m assuming since you have a fume hood(!) there is other standard chemistry stuff around. If you’ve left it out for a year though it may be pretty degraded. I don’t deal with pure unprotonated nic so I don’t know how fast or far it degrades.
that orange color may say which acid it’s been reacted with. I don’t know myself

Again, the 1,000mg was not part of my issue here. Im not using it, its too harsh, even when diluted down to 6mg, I was using that base as a comparison to the supposed "salt nic which I bought yesterday. I bought the slat nic at 65mg. I dont think its even possible to get 1,000mg locally.

Ill try to break this down for ease of reading..

Purchased:

-65mg 'salt nic' in PG base
-color is orange / red
-vaped at 18W @12mg, in pockex with new coil, no throat issues

-65mg 'salt nic' in VG base (bought it to try and eliminate pg content and hopefully reduce throat hit)
-color is light yellow
-vaped at 18W in same device with new coil as low as 6mg major throat hit / burn

 

[440BB]

As you've already tried replacing it from the same vendor with the same results, I think it's time to find another vendor. Something changed in the sourcing or the process between your PG base and VG base purchases.

 

[bombastinator]

I must be horrible at conveying my thoughts lol. The 1,000mg is not being used here. I had purchased it to make my own 24mg base, but the "freebase nic had me doing small puffs, and was not satisfying enough to quit my 30 year smoking habbit. Im not using that anymore, I switch to 'salt nic' instead.

more likely I’m horrible at understanding yours and conveying mine. It’s the usual problem with me. I get that you haven’t used it in a long time.
I will try to redescribe my understanding in the hope that it will help clarify any miscommunication.
As I remember you tried the 1000mg long ago, found it horrible, and shelved it.

Much later, you discovered a protonated nic (which one still unknown but it’s orange) that worked for you, but it was PG base and you wanted a VG base.

you went to the B&M store where you bought the PG base protonated nic that worked for you, bought a bottle of what you thought was the same stuff in VG but it was worse not better. You complained and tried it again, with more or less the same result, and you think you may have been sold unprotonated instead of protonated.

I pointed out that there are actually several different kinds of protonated nic and they don’t all act the same way and I railed about unethical JUUL marketers who tried to hide this and the problems they have caused by doing so.

It is possible you were sold protonated nic but it was not actually the same kind. It may also be that you were sold unprotonated nic instead. I don’t use protonated nic so I have no suggestions as to how to tell the difference. Others may.

I had a thought that IF you still have that 1000mg laying about AND it hasn’t degraded (which I have no way to tell but it very possibly has) reacting it with an appropriate acid would create a protonated nic allowing you to bypass the B&M store entirely. It strikes me as unwise, but I’m not a chemist. I get the impression from the equipment you described that you might be.

Again, the 1,000mg was not part of my issue here. Im not using it, its too harsh, even when diluted down to 6mg, I was using that base as a comparison to the supposed "salt nic which I bought yesterday. I bought the slat nic at 65mg. I dont think its even possible to get 1,000mg locally.

Ill try to break this down for ease of reading..

Purchased:

-65mg 'salt nic' in PG base
-color is orange / red
-vaped at 18W @12mg, in pockex with new coil, no throat issues

-65mg 'salt nic' in VG base (bought it to try and eliminate pg content and hopefully reduce throat hit)
-color is light yellow
-vaped at 18W in same device with new coil as low as 6mg major throat hit / burn

It occurs to me now that it is not totally impossible that the problem you are having is with the VG. That’s usually the opposite of how it works, but humans are not all exactly the same. This makes 2 variables tested simultaneously so it kind of throws a wrench into things.

 

[bombastinator]

As you've already tried replacing it from the same vendor with the same results, I think it's time to find another vendor. Something changed in the sourcing or the process between your PG base and VG base purchases.

I think this very possible. Even likely. Testing requires reduction to one variable, usually. This concept makes assumptions but they are high probability ones. The B&M store may have changed its sourcing which even if they are not selling unprotonated as protonated, should also change the name of what they are selling, but because of that vagueness of the term “salt” may not have.

things that seem to me to remain unknown:

-How much and to what degree you react to PG or VG
-exactly what is in the second bottle of VG based “salt” you bought
-exactly what is in the orange tinted bottle of PG based “salt” you bought.
-what, if anything, this orange tint thing means.
it is possibly useful because it may (or may not) be an indicator of which type of protonated nic is in the PG salt bottle.

 

[jandrew]

... The thing about “salt” is it’s a marketing term. There’s actually a lot more than one kind and not all of them actually reduce throat hit. A few of them can increase it. The use of the terms “salt” and “ freebase” really annoy me. It’s marketing garbage made to reduce perceived issues with one while increasing it with the other. Their scientists didn’t even use the terms. ...

Just to be clear, the term Nicotine Salt (and freebase for that matter) is not just a marketing term or marketing garbage --- "salt" is standard chemical terminology (see, for example: Salt (chemistry) - Wikipedia). And, suggesting that Juul's scientists don't even use the term "salt" or "nicotine salt" is ridiculous --- Juul's chemists most certainly do use that term, as does Juul's patent application (aptly entitled: Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof).

 

[bombastinator]

Just to be clear, the term Nicotine Salt (and freebase for that matter) is not just a marketing term or marketing garbage --- "salt" is standard chemical terminology (see, for example: Salt (chemistry) - Wikipedia). And, suggesting that Juul's scientists don't even use the term "salt" or "nicotine salt" is ridiculous --- Juul's chemists most certainly do use that term, as does Juul's patent application (aptly entitled: Nicotine salt formulations for aerosol devices and methods thereof).

I did not say chemists did not EVER use it. I said those people did not. In this case. Salt is not actually specifically wrong and is a much more common term. Yet it wasn’t the one they used.

Why I believe this:
JUUL was no-knock warrant raided a few years ago because of a class action lawsuit and documents were seized. Some of those documents were scientific reports and in those reports the people working on the stuff did not generally use the term salt to describe the chemicals they were working on in those documents. They used the term “protonated”.

I also feel the term “salt” is misleading in this case because of the common term “salt” which refers to table salt which is NaCl. These may be salts but there is more than one of them and none of them are actually NaCl.

The report you cite is external. It was meant to be released and therefore had to pass through marketing. I’m talking about stuff that WASN’T passed through marketing.

 

[jandrew]

...
Why I believe this:
JUUL was no-knock warrant raided a few years ago because of a class action lawsuit and documents were seized. Some of those documents were scientific reports and in those reports the people working on the stuff did not generally use the term salt to describe the chemicals they were working on in those documents. They used the term “protonated”.

Do you have a reference for this beyond hearsay? Links to actual documents, or at least court transcripts where such documents were presented in evidence? Anything?

It would strike me as more than odd that chemists (or other scientists describing chemicals) would not use accepted standard chemical nomenclature. Yes, when discussing differences between some "salt" formulations, as in some are mono-protonated, others are di-protonated, and some exist in mixed protonation states --- as is done in the patent application when describing those specific states --- but in general, the term "salt" would be used by anyone working on or describing such compounds.

I also feel the term “salt” is misleading in this case because of the common term “salt” which refers to table salt which is NaCl. These may be salts but there is more than one of them and none of them are actually NaCl. ...

You can feel it is misleading, but it is accurate and correct nomenclature --- nicotine benzoate is a "salt", as is nicotine salicylate. In fact, naturally occuring nicotine in tobacco plants (and other plants) is in a "salt" form (less prone to oxidation).

 

[stols001]

I can't provide anything concrete but my son had a Juul moment and I took ONE puff, and handed it back, saying, "That is too rich for MY blood, kiddo"

I definitely think it has some proprietary stuff. I mean, I am pretty certain. I have vaped fairly high nic coming off a relapse but it was STILL nothing like that Juul.

I would ASSUME there are proprietary ingredients in many pod vapes, and I bet they ALL want to know what Juul's IS.

My son actually went back to SMOKING for awhile and then he went to a refillable pod vape and he had a MUCH harder time quitting overall , than when he was a 3 mg/ml DL vaper. That ALSO tells me something.

And yes, they are anecdotes. Anecdotal data is not as good as KNOWING the ingredient(s) or a study, but it remains useful to pay attention around one, as in my universe, cause and effect are real.

Anna

 

[bombastinator]

Do you have a reference for this beyond hearsay? Links to actual documents, or at least court transcripts where such documents were presented in evidence?

heh. That one is cute. Implying that court transcripts are easier to get than links.

Anything?

the standard pseudo rhetorical question I’ve seen so often lately. Yes. There is stuff. It’s even on this site. Or was last I looked. That was a while ago though. Until quite recently I got basically all information I have about ecigarettes from this site or links made to other things posted on this site.
What your statement seems to amount to is a demand for me to spend hours collecting data from other parts of this site and elsewhere to prove my statement. A process that could conceivably be continued infinitely at your leisure, because various different questions can continue to be raised about different parts of anything collected.

In short what you are saying is “NO! I TAKE THE FIRST STATEMENT BY SIMPLE DEMAND! I don’t have to prove you wrong you have to prove ME wrong!”

That’s not generally how it works, but How about we split the difference?

You are as capable of digging through this forum as me. Everything I got I got from within this forum. It should still be around. Its quite hard for users to erase stuff here. It’s not impossible it happened. It would require the original poster to remove things they posted, or for Digging will have to be done.

The lawsuit stuff:
Did the warrant get served? Iirc yes according to at least one news article posted here. Ive never been able to use the internal search system very well myself though I understand it can be done. I turned to regular google to find this one
Juul users sue e-cigarette maker for causing 'youth addiction crisis' | Daily Mail Online
It’s not super. I am not british but I understand the daily mail is not universally well regarded. It may also not be about the case I mentioned. It does reference the existence of one previous case in New York and two in California. JUUL is based in California so much suspicion is it is one of those but I don’t know.
This article is unusual in that I found it digging for the chart I saw, but while the chart referenced the article the article did not reference the chart. Seems odd to me. Anyway this is the chart. Or one of two which seem to me to say more or less the same thing. In the other image I saw the various graphs were less smooth and were not superimposed.

I don’t know if it was the article referenced here or not. Probably not. There were likely a lot of articles.
Here is another article about A raid on JUUL. I don’t know if it was THE raid on JUUL I am thinking of though.
FDA Seizes Thousands of Docs in Surprise Raid on Juul
Daily beast also not a super duper source.

Was data collected in this search? Iirc Yes, according to those(that?)self same article(s). Some of it was even presented at the trial. IIRC The trial itself was about the possible increased addictiveness of protonated nic.(should I salt for you?). I recall attempting to try to get ahold of court transcripts and failing. My interest at the time was as to whether the trial, which went in JUUL’s favor was a finding of fact or a technicality. I was unable to determine that one way or another. Iirc part of the finding was that for the trial the plaintiff had to prove that JUUL knew there was an increased addiction risk but concealed it. What apparently was determined was that JUUL did not do much of any addiction or safety testing at all. They didn’t look so there was no case. Which is not the same thing as there being no addictiveness issue. There was a blood level/time chart that was presented that showed the various kinds of protonated nic they were looking at and showed that the curves of these graphs were far far sharper than with unprotonated nic, implying, but not proving, that there was possibly a very very serious addiction increase. I do not know if the chart was seized evidence or if it was released separately. If it was, it’s possible it instigated the original lawsuit.


It would strike me as more than odd that chemists (or other scientists describing chemicals) would not use accepted standard chemical nomenclature.
[/QUOTE] it struck me as odd too. Both are standard chemical nomenclature though. One is merely more specific than the other.

Yes, when discussing differences between some "salt" formulations, as in some are mono-protonated, others are di-protonated, and some exist in mixed protonation states --- as is done in the patent application when describing those specific states --- but in general, the term "salt" would be used by anyone working on or describing such compounds.

so this is actually a demand for direct copies of the seized evidence used in the trial. You don’t ask small do you? Such stuff is generally not available to the public at all much less put online. It may even be under judicial lockdown. And without it you claim your statement trumps my statement, though it is arguably pure supposition and opinion.

You can feel it is misleading, but it is accurate and correct nomenclature --- nicotine benzoate is a "salt", as is nicotine salicylate. In fact, naturally occuring nicotine in tobacco plants (and other plants) is in a "salt" form (less prone to oxidation).

I didn’t say it wasn’t technically accurate. It’s tomato tomato at worst though. They’re both accurate. One merely is more specific and strips away the marketing advantage of the reference to table salt.
The ethics thing IMHO isn’t the use of the word, it’s the use of the singular. Implying there is only one when in fact there are many.

The whole oxidation thing was considered one of the marketing advantages of protonated nic. Longer shelf life.

 

[jandrew]

heh. That one is cute. Implying that court transcripts are easier to get than links. the standard pseudo rhetorical question I’ve seen so often lately. Yes. There is stuff. It’s even on this site. Or was last I looked. That was a while ago though. Until quite recently I got basically all information I have about ecigarettes from this site or links made to other things posted on this site.
What your statement seems to amount to is a demand for me to spend hours collecting data from other parts of this site and elsewhere to prove my statement. A process that could conceivably be continued infinitely at your leisure, because various different questions can continue to be raised about different parts of anything collected.

In short what you are saying is “NO! I TAKE THE FIRST STATEMENT BY SIMPLE DEMAND! I don’t have to prove you wrong you have to prove ME wrong!”

That’s not generally how it works, but How about we split the difference?

You are as capable of digging through this forum as me. Everything I got I got from within this forum. It should still be around. Its quite hard for users to erase stuff here. It’s not impossible it happened. It would require the original poster to remove things they posted, or for Digging will have to be done.

The lawsuit stuff:
Did the warrant get served? Iirc yes according to at least one news article posted here. Ive never been able to use the internal search system very well myself though I understand it can be done. I turned to regular google to find this one
Juul users sue e-cigarette maker for causing 'youth addiction crisis' | Daily Mail Online
It’s not super. I am not british but I understand the daily mail is not universally well regarded. It may also not be about the case I mentioned. It does reference the existence of one previous case in New York and two in California. JUUL is based in California so much suspicion is it is one of those but I don’t know.
This article is unusual in that I found it digging for the chart I saw, but while the chart referenced the article the article did not reference the chart. Seems odd to me. Anyway this is the chart. Or one of two which seem to me to say more or less the same thing. In the other image I saw the various graphs were less smooth and were not superimposed.
View attachment 850139


I don’t know if it was the article referenced here or not. Probably not. There were likely a lot of articles.
Here is another article about A raid on JUUL. I don’t know if it was THE raid on JUUL I am thinking of though.
FDA Seizes Thousands of Docs in Surprise Raid on Juul
Daily beast also not a super duper source.

Was data collected in this search? Iirc Yes, according to those(that?)self same article(s). Some of it was even presented at the trial. IIRC The trial itself was about the possible increased addictiveness of protonated nic.(should I salt for you?). I recall attempting to try to get ahold of court transcripts and failing. My interest at the time was as to whether the trial, which went in JUUL’s favor was a finding of fact or a technicality. I was unable to determine that one way or another. Iirc part of the finding was that for the trial the plaintiff had to prove that JUUL knew there was an increased addiction risk but concealed it. What apparently was determined was that JUUL did not do much of any addiction or safety testing at all. They didn’t look so there was no case. Which is not the same thing as there being no addictiveness issue. There was a blood level/time chart that was presented that showed the various kinds of protonated nic they were looking at and showed that the curves of these graphs were far far sharper than with unprotonated nic, implying, but not proving, that there was possibly a very very serious addiction increase. I do not know if the chart was seized evidence or if it was released separately. If it was, it’s possible it instigated the original lawsuit.

It would strike me as more than odd that chemists (or other scientists describing chemicals) would not use accepted standard chemical nomenclature.

it struck me as odd too. Both are standard chemical nomenclature though. One is merely more specific than the other. so this is actually a demand for direct copies of the seized evidence used in the trial. You don’t ask small do you? Such stuff is generally not available to the public at all much less put online. It may even be under judicial lockdown. And without it you claim your statement trumps my statement, though it is arguably pure supposition and opinion.
I didn’t say it wasn’t technically accurate. It’s tomato tomato at worst though. They’re both accurate. One merely is more specific and strips away the marketing advantage of the reference to table salt.
The ethics thing IMHO isn’t the use of the word, it’s the use of the singular. Implying there is only one when in fact there are many.

The whole oxidation thing was considered one of the marketing advantages of protonated nic. Longer shelf life.

You could have simply said: No, I don't have anything to back up my claims that: "Their scientists didn’t even use the terms." ... done.

 

[bombastinator]

You could have simply said: No, I don't have anything to back up my claims that: "Their scientists didn’t even use the terms." ... done.

But then I would have been lying.